Reference images for C-spine MRIs?

[ArtistLike]

Does anyone know of a good resource for reference images of cervical spine MRIs that detail abnormalities?  I've only found a few through Google image searches and a lot of them are really hard to see.

[ArtistLike]

Bob, yes, there are only three sets of cervical scans this time (the first time they did seven).  The new ones are labeled: SAG T2, SAG PD 4MS, and AX T2 GRE.

I've looked at as many samples as I can find online, and all the ones marked for lesions seem to show a bright spot(s) in the T2 image that is greatly enhanced in the PD image.  I don't really see much variation in the SAG T2 image, and the minor variations in the PD version all are along the edges of the fluid, which are completely bright in the T2 image.  I still don't really know what I'm looking at, but when I saw the last scans I knew absolutely that they didn't look "normal."  These look normal to me by comparison.  I can't make any sense of the axial views, so fortunately I can't even bother to speculate one way or another.

[jujuminx]

You landed in this forum for a reason David.   MS, limbo, or whatever, we are so glad you found us. We all have our own little quirky personality traits but it all works.

:-)

Julie

[COBOB]

On the new set of images, they did some different sequences (if I'm reading the seq labels correctly.)  The Sagittal and Axial (images 1 and 3) are T2 sequences.  It looks like the middles image is labeled PD (proton density).  PD minimizes T1 and T2 signal and shows a bright signal where there is a higher hydrogen proton density due to transverse magnetization transfer.  We used to call this a rho-weighted study.  

Bob

[Lulu54]

You are most welcome - thank you for sharing the kind words of thanks.  I always tell new folks who show up here looking for answers that they have landed in a community - and that word really means a lot for every one here - that is full of smart and compassionate people willing to share their knowledge and expertise and experiences.

It is always nice to hear from you newbies that I'm telling the truth and not over selling the value of the wonderful people here.

[anon07072023]

Well, the really obvious MRI scan is of course the one marked as "Do you see what I see."  
In the newer one marked "redo," you can kind of make it out in the center one and in the axial one, to the right,  you can see it even better. They said to me that since they could see it in the sagittal view on the first t-spine MRI that they did, plus also in the axial view, then it was never an artifact in the first place - that it had to be a lesion.  The one on the left in the redo one is too dark to make anyting out.  

However, I'm not a radiologist - that's just based on looking at mine and what I've found on the internet, and what has been pointed out to me by my neurologist.

Let us know what they say....

-Kelly

[ArtistLike]

You know, I just have to say to all of you again: THANK YOU.  I don't even know if I have MS or anything like it, or if this could be allergies or all in my head, but regardless, I have never encountered such a supportive and overwhelmingly well-informed community of people.  Really.

[ArtistLike]

Thanks, everyone.  Actually, when she said that spinal MRIs serve no purpose for MS because it's only in the brain, I corrected her and told her she was wrong.  I didn't bother with the age thing.  Really, I just wanted to move on to other things and not possible neurological diagnoses (or non-diagnoses); that's not her job or expertise.  I think she was sort of telling me that by what she said, anyway.  I do like talking to her, and I feel like she's giving me a lot of behavioral therapy techniques that I've started using on my own that may actually be helping with my depression and anxiety.

That said, I still have NO energy most of the time (and told her that, which was a little bewildering to her).

Kelly, did you look at both MRI images I posted or just the first one (the really blurry set)?  Because I *DEFINITELY* saw suspicious stuff in that one, but in the second version (posted separately and much, much clearer with stronger contrast), I don't see anything at all.  Which, ridiculously, is really troubling because I'm just biting my fingernails waiting for my C-spine report to come back and say "normal," leaving me back where I began.  But all I can do is wait.

Sidesteps, I am pretty sure both MRIs were done on 1.5T machines.  I asked them to use a 3T when I made my appointment and the facility told me it doesn't have one, but a branch facility does.  I tried to make an appointment there, but it turns out my insurance won't pay for that one facility (or any other, I found out, that happens to have a 3T machine).  But the first set of images was so blurry (the one posted with the "Do you see what I see?" caption) and the new set of all three spinal sections are crystal clear.  And I don't see anything.  So.  Limbo,,,

[Sidesteps]

What type of machine was your MRI done on? Mine was a 1.5T and the images look like crap to me compared to yours.

[Sidesteps]

LOL David, you got everyone all riled up. That's impressive. :)

I'd also like to say I'm with you and Kelly on this. I review all my MRI's and have found spots they didn't question and should have. I have also found (like Kelly) a spot they said was an artifact that has shown up in the same spot in 3 different MRI's!  That's not an artifact unless they are copying the MRI's which I don't think they are.

These "spots" will be discussed with my Neurologist Monday when we review my recent MRI.

[anon07072023]

Come to think of it - Lou is right about your psychiatrist.  She should know better than to give you medical advice that she obviously knows nothing about.  Her common sense should have kicked in - if she says these things to you, she should know that you're going to take her word at face value. Especially since you're taking in your MRI reports to her.  So, it's not like you were just casually discussing it.  But what if the info she's giving you is blatently WRONG?  And you don't get the proper treatment that you need, because you listened to her. That makes me a little worried.

I think if I were in your shoes and I told my partner my psychiatrist (not that I have one, but if I did) said the same thing that your psychiatrist said to you, she would say her advice is very questionable and strongly suggest that I leave her.  Although, her intentions may have been good....  

[COBOB]

I'd give the psychiatrist a pass.  They pretty much forget what they learned in med school when they start messing with the psychopharmachology and talk therapy (Yes, I have a psychiatrist.)  

I think many of us have seen or heard neurologist say much dumber things (and they should know better.)

Bob

[Lulu54]

YIKES!!!!!  

If you really want to stick with this psychiatrist, invest in some good reading material for her.  she is so wrong about MS it is pitiful.  Please tell her you have friends who know this stuff and she could use a refresher course.

MS is predominantly a disease of 20-40year olds as Julie has pointed out.  Normally we are told we are too old to have MS and not too young.

MS lesions do occur sometimes in only the spine and not the brain.

  

It always scares/saddens/angers me when we hear a report from a medical expert who doesn't have a clue about MS.  

Are you sure she is really helping with your other problems or maybe you would be better sooner with someone else?  I hate to plant that doubt, but it makes me wonder..........

[anon07072023]

I took a look at your c-spine MRIs and I definitely see what you see. I'm exactly like you.  I go begging for the discs as soon as I finish my MRI.  And then I'm busy comparing it to what I find on reputable websites.  They intially said the lesions I have in my t-spine were artifacts, too. Then after further looking and an additional MRI they decided, nope, not an artifact - they were MS lesions.  

Don't let the doctors ignore you.  You're right in pursuing this.  And like Julie said, I'm glad that your psychiatrist is NOT your neurologist, because she OBVIOUSLY knows nothing about MS.  So, if she's good for your anxiety & depression, then that's fine, but just don't listen to her when it comes to MS.  LOL!

-Kelly

[jujuminx]

Well then do me a favor the next time you see her and tell her her ignorance is concerning to your friends (lol).

The prime age of people who are dx with MS is 20-40 and it is a disease of the central nervous system (that would be the brain and the spine). This is pretty basic stuff for a doctor not to know and to tell a patient otherwise is stunningly ignorant.

If she is helping you with your depression and anxiety then by all means continue to see her (like I really have a say in it) but keep in mind she apparently has some major gaps in her education.

Julie

[ArtistLike]

But I love my psychiatrist!!  :(  She's really helping me w/ my depression and anxiety.

[jujuminx]

OM goodness David, run from your psychiatrist!  This is a doctor!?! And she thinks 33 is too young to have MS and that MS can present in the spine????

RUN!!

Julie

[ArtistLike]

Thank, Lulu.  I'm going to try not to think about it too much, I guess.  I mean, if I eventually fall over or can't walk anymore, I figure they'll figure something out.  Still waiting on my cervical spine report.  The other two came out first thing yesterday morning.  I don't know what's holding it up.  Urgh.

So I just got back from my psychiatric appointment.  I gave her all the blood test results she ordered, as well as the MRI reports I have and my mood and MS tracker printouts (she thought they were cute, so whoever designed the tracker, good job!; I gave her the MS one because it also tracks mood, etc.).

She said I definitely don't have MS because I'm too young and because it's only in the brain, not the spine.  Errr...

[Lulu54]

There are way too many people who get told this - unfortuantely it is a really difficult place to get out of, both emotionally and with the medical system.  

We tell everyone here - listen to your body.  Only you can know for sure what is going on.  If you think something is wrong, then there is something wrong. Period.  Even anxiety is a diagnosis of something that is amiss.

Don't give up on finding answers - your well being depends on it.

hugs, L

[ArtistLike]

I am, I guess, Lulu.  I'm just so fed up with my world being upside down and doctors telling me I am doing it to myself and just need to relax.

[Lulu54]

You really are intent on driving yourself mad, aren't you?  LOL


  So glad the MS Atlas fueled your obsession.  I would be happy to trade you spinal columns - yours' looks so much nicer than mine.  

I hope the doctors can help you to interpret what is really being seen on your scans.

best,
Lulu

[ArtistLike]

So I had my c-spine, as well as t- and l- scanned yesterday.  The image quality is a zillion times better (http://www.medhelp.org/user_photos/show/217859?personal_page_id=2193367) and this time the bright areas that were showing in my cervical spine are all gone--it looks totally normal.  They re-scanned it to make sure the intense area wasn't a focal artifact and I'm still waiting on the report, but it looks like it was...which, realistically, is a good thing, right?  Except if my brain and spine are all normal, that puts me back at square one: really annoying/distracting/disorienting/sometimes painful physical issues that come and go...all in my head?  :-/

[ArtistLike]

I posted my scan + two comparisons in my photos...obsess much, David?

[ArtistLike]

Jen, do you know if the lesion would be related to the annular tear, or are we talking more like MS (or something like it)?  Asking because the scan--to my blurry eyes--looks between C2-C3 like cervical MS lesions in comparing to online photos.  (Dumb, dumb, dumb, I know...)

[jensequitur]

Sounds like you have a possible lesion at C2, and that they'll check it again.