Back again...

[hatrick03]

A couple of you on my last thread asked me let you all what happened with my doctor situation. Well, I didn't get the guts to tell him. I did some thinking in b/w my last post and my appt., and I thought maybe it would be better to find someone my age. I had gone out with a new guy a couple of times, and though the chemistry wasn't there, I decided to keep seeing him and maybe he would grow on me as we got to know one another more. I think it was also a "bird in the hand" type of thing. Here I had a single guy who was definitely interested in pursuing a relationship with me and no baggage. Why not stick with him? It was also a protection instinct - I was afraid of getting hurt. I know that there was some attraction b/w my doctor and I, but he was also so back and forth with his marriage. He had told me in March he was divorced, and I assumed that was the end, but who's to say he wouldn't change his mind again like he'd done before?

I was right. At my last appt., I noticed a big change in his behavior. He wasn't all touchy and caring like before; he was really distant. He asked if I was seeing anyone and I said I had seen this new guy a couple of times. He said this is good - it's nice to have someone to help us through rough times "like my wife - no one knows me better than her." I just wanted to yell, "But I thought you were divorced?!" He had just been saying at the last appt. that he'd been through this rough divorce. Now he is like making an effort to tell me that he's obviously back w/her again. After he examined me, I asked him about pains in my left side I'd been having, and he basically said he didn't know what it was, just said it could be this or that. Then he's like, I'll see you in 3 months, bye! and opened the door - no hug, no handshake. A complete turnaround. I felt like, who cares, and even looked into switching to my parents' doctor. For the past few weeks, I've rarely thought about him. My depression has also been doing a lot better. Things didn't work out with the other guy; I just didn't have the same feelings for him that he did for me, and realized I probably never would. I was determined, though, to keep looking. I also (finally!) found a job here in town. I felt like, though he played a big role in my recovery and I was grateful, I no longer needed my doctor in my life. Then last night, I had the most incredible dream - no, it wasn't a sexual dream (well not a purely sexual dream, anyway). I've never had a dream like that before - so vivid and intense. I guess I haven't gotten him out of my head yet. I don't know what the point of posting this is - other than the dream reminded me that I'd forgotten to give an update. I guess I'd like to know what the remedy for lovesickness is (if you can call this that)? I seriously thought this was a hero worship thing that I'd gotten past, but why am I haunted with dreams now?

[slow_healer]

lol, I hope you get well enough soon to move out. I'm guessing you're in your mid-20s??? So am I. I lived with my parents for a couple months last year and did I ever feel depressed! The weight of those expectations can be stifling, not to mention feeling judged by your every decision. Unfortunately I think it's *normal* for parents to still see their children as children - even when they're adults. It's sort of a weird double standard (you must be successful, yet treat their ideas as superior to your own). haha, Yes, I'm bitter about my living experience, but since I moved out, my relationship with them has been MUCH better. We're just not poking our noses in each other's business so much.

I can see why the acceptance may be so important (esp considering your living environment). Try and give yourself other things to look forward to, e.g. walking the dog, reading, anything to help keep you sane and feeling on track. I think you have a good understanding of your situation with your doctor, but that's not resolving your situation overall. Once you are on your own and you can take your family better in stride, I think you'll find a lot of the anxiety you're having now (it sounds like) a little easier to stomach. Good luck!

[hatrick03]

slow_healer - I've been trying to figure out what exactly it is I'm holding onto - I don't have high hopes for love, acceptance, or emotional security from him. Well, maybe emotional security to a certain extent. He has been the only person in my life that accepts me for me, so I guess it could be acceptance, too. My family has high expectations for me and I think are impatient and disappointed about this rut I'm in. He has things that he wants me to do and work on, but he pretty much accepts who I am as being enough and sees the good in me. He has confidence that I'm going to get better, wheras some of my family is like, "I don't know, is she always going to be in this rut?" Being faced with negativity day in and day out makes me want to cling to the one person who has been positive throughout this ordeal: him.

Your dream is interesting: that you were running away from him, and that you faced him and he went away. My dream was different. I was at a kitchen table with him, a couple of young children, and a dark-haired middle-aged woman that I knew in the dream somehow was his wife (though I've never met her before). He was telling me that I had to stay the night because it was snowing a lot outside. Later he and I were in bed together, and his wife walks in. We both are like oh no! but she just smiles and keeps walking. Very strange. Luckily I haven't had anymore dreams like that!

My mom, lol, it is never "end of story" with her. I think she is suspicious because I mentioned to her before that he was going through divorce, and she kept saying it was odd that he would tell me that, and also, that he hadn't referred me to a therapist/psychiatrist. I told her that psychiatrists basically do the same things md's do, and that he'd suggested me talking to a therapist (in addition to seeing him). I really don't want to give her the notion that anything inappropriate has gone on. She is likely to jump to conclusions since I had an affair with an older man that she found out about. I'll change doctors if that's what I decide is best, regardless of what she says, though I'm unsure of switching to her doctor. She's not an md, and my mom recently had trouble with this doctor misdiagnosing her. There are many good doctors out there, but this is a small town, and we get what we get. My doctor is supposedly the best in our clinic. It's not that I'm looking for excuses - I've been looking into doctors, and if I find one that sounds good and is accepting patients, I'll switch in a minute. It's just the only doctors that I know of who are accepting new patients are new in town, and I don't want to take a chance at this point with a new doctor. As inconsistent as my doctor is, at least he doesn't try to push a bunch of medicines on me or lecture me about being underweight. I've had a doctor who would make my doctor sound like a world-class physician, and trust me, I'm in no shape to get a doctor that is worse than the one I've got now. I do have to get the strength up to stand up to my mom - she's so touchy lately, that it's better to just bend her way, but I've been more assertive with her over the past few months. She doesn't like it, but she'll get over it. It sucks being an adult and having to live with your parents (esp. since I was supporting myself from age 20 until now {about 5 years}). Hopefully, won't be for much longer! *knocks on wood!* Thanks, you gave me some things to think about.

[koukla29]

You know people, I think we take ourselves a little too seriously.  I want to be respectful of the thread you started, however, I also enjoy the subtopics that all threads create.  In addition, you were getting few responses that were extremely repetitive in nature: solution to your problem, forget this person and move on, you deserve better.  I think it's wrong that you want to control a forum.  I don't believe that is how it works.  

[slow_healer]

No matter how he treated you, it doesn't change the fact that there's a part of you that still wants to be loved (as corny as that sounds, it's the same for everybody).

He is acting that way out of selfishness - not caring. So don't dwell on it too much because it has no reflection on you. Try not to beat yourself up over thinking about him still. Sometimes a lot of those "hanging on" feelings can be diffused (though not necessarily eliminated) by figuring out what exactly you're hanging on to. Possibility of love? Acceptance? Emotional security? Those are all HUGE things to hope for. This might help you to reconcile those "why do I care about someone who is a jerk to me" feelings.

Re: the dream. So you're thinking about him a lot - enough that your subconscious runs a dream for you to process some of those feelings. I might not believe that dreams are significant in the spiritual sort of way, but they can be a powerful tool in your mind. If you dream about him again and are aware that you are dreaming, try confronting him in your mind. If you are holding on to him, tell him you need him to understand that you need to let go (even of the version of him in your mind).

If a brief story helps, I was once in a similar situation (having a *strange* relationship with a man that was inappropriate). When the relationship turned sour, I stopped talking to him (for the best) but kept having dreams/nightmares about him. I was always running from him. I did not believe these dreams meant he was actually coming after me. But I knew it meant this was bothering me a lot. After several upsetting dreams, finally one night and I turned and faced him, told him many things (including what I suggested to you above). After that the dreams stopped. I was still hurt and thinking about him, but it went better after that. There was a better sense of closure.

You probably won't get closure from this guy from the sounds of it. But you can make closure for yourself, as difficult as that may be. Until you find it, the obsessive thinking may persist. I'm calling it "obsessive" because that's how it felt for myself, and it sounds like you are experiencing similarly.

As for your mom, I would be more upfront with her. "Mom, I am not comfortable with this doctor. End story." Even just mention you've been getting strange vibes (hehe, your woman's intuition so to speak). Your mom is not the one going to these appointments - you are! Find a different doctor either way. You are an adult, and your mom should credit your judgement without you having to justify yourself. Good luck!

[hatrick03]

BB, your atheist agenda is crystal clear. It's obvious that you don't care about other people's problems, and only want to come to here to spout your anti-Christian bs and take out your anger on people. You can take it somewhere else because I started this thread - it is my thread. You're right, the mod calls the shots, and I've reported you, so hopefully she'll do something about it. BTW, you can keep your 2 cents because I don't value your opinions, just to let you know. It's laughable that you can say my doctor doesn't have feelings for me - you weren't there, and you also don't know the whole story either, so you're obviously clueless. You can continue to spout your messed up dream **** somewhere else because I for one am not interested in it or anything else that comes out of your hateful mouth, and I doubt anyone else is either. Ta, ta. God bless you.

[barn babe]

Stop spinning. Satan on a cross, these are threads on a free website, not $500 an hour psychotherapy sessions. Threads get derailed; subjects change. This is not "your" thread any more than it is "your" website.

But if you'd like me to stay on topic, here's my 2 cents: You are extremely messed up about a person who doesn't give a rat's a** about you. Somehow you allowed yourself to become emotionally attached to this loser and, judging from the remarks you continue to make, you are unwilling or unable to extricate yourself emotionally. The  excuse that your mother won't allow you to switch doctors is just that - an excuse. If you are not comfortable with a health care provider, you switch.

Forget the "dreams."  Engaging in fantasies about this loser won't help you move on.

Bottom line? You are stuck and appear unwilling to unstick yourself. Using excuses like "I can't see another doctor," and "hey, I never came on to him but there sure was an attraction there between us," are just that: excuses.

If it's the depression, then don't stop the meds. Maybe change the dosages too.

[hatrick03]

Barnbabe, thanks for being disrespectful and continuing to guano my thread. Guess I will have to contact a moderator that will hopefully remove this off-topic stuff...

Anyway - slow_healer - I'll quote your message since I don't want to keep scrolling up there to read it:

"Just another take on your situation. While I don't agree that dreams convey significant meaning, I do believe that the more something is being processed in your subconscious mind, the more likely it is to manifest in your dreams. You say you've been working on putting this person behind you, but that doesn't solve your problems to begin with (needing somebody, having positive friends, or whatnot). It sounds like your mind is still working through that.

As long as you perceive this man to be someone who could take care of all your problems (potentially and figuratively speaking of course), he will remain in your thoughts because you are still looking for someone who can take care of you."

I guess he will be on my mind or in my sub-conscious at least until I can find someone to sort of take his place. I thought I was strong enough at this point to be able to forget about it, but the mind is a powerful thing. It just makes me mad that I'm still able to think of him in a positive light when he treated me pretty badly. It's like when he was divorced, he was caring and compassionate, then when he's back with his wife, he has to throw that in the conversation as I guess an excuse for acting so removed. It's not like I've come on to him or given him any indication that I'm interested - can he not control himself that much that he can't have a normal conversation with me? What does he think is going to happen? He's the one that brought the focus onto my love life - I didn't want to talk about my relationship or his. I just wanted to talk about my health problems which he basically tossed aside and threw me out the door. He's got to know that that will affect someone who has been going through depression. He makes me so mad, and then on the other hand, his image will pop into my head in the middle of the day and I want to see him and talk to him so much. I really wish I could tell someone how he's treating his patients (I don't know whether he's done this with other female patients or not) - his wife for one. I would want to know if my husband was giving thigh rubs and hugs to patients.

I asked my mom questions about her doctor, since her doctor is accepting new patients. She started asking me a bunch of questions about why do I want to switch, that makes no sense, etc. I told her that I thought his care wasn't consistant, but she insisted that her doctor is not that great and that I need to stay with my doctor. It is rough with me still living with her because I can't do anything without her being involved. I know she will be suspicious if I switch doctors now. I guess she is right that if I go to next month's appt. and am still improving that he may not want to see me for awhile after that. But, then he would still be in my life - a part of me is already looking forward to my next appt. with him. :(

[barn babe]

Koukla, if you haven't read "Blink" by Malcolm Gladwell, you'd probably enjoy it. He discusses intuition, although I found the book on the whole to be rather shallow in his thesis.

I think intuition is too prone to associative biases to be of any usefulness on its own (like making illogical associations between events). That generally belongs in the same realm as  superstition and magical thinking, and I think you know how I feel about that stuff.

If there is any place for intuition, it is in the realm of experiential repetition. You could probably say that we all use our "intuition" every day of our lives in different circumstances. A good example would be when I take  the cable car to the supermarket. The damn things are always packed with tourists, but some days I go out and wait anyway and think, "well, I have a hunch it won't be SRO, so I'll catch the cable car today instead of taking a cab." Well, it's  not  really "intuition" saying it's going to be easier today, although we would probably call it that. It's past experiences and memories encoded in my neural pathways, maybe my memory encodes that  the cable car is less crowded in the mornings, or mid-week, or whenever. That's not intuition, although that's probably what we call it.

Ultimately, you need analytical thinking and rational deliberation to correct the belief-biased thinking associated with intuition. LIke that **** about "women's intuition." Where'd THAT come from, for pete's sake? If women had so much great "intuition," why are women, just to cite one small example, crawling all over this forum laying out how f*cked up their relationships are? Discussing their horrible choices and their fears of loss and insecurities?

Nope. It's just more magical thinking. Generally, you can put intuition on  the same dogpile as  the love for a bearded matriarch and the lame superstitions about black cats and walking on ladders (or whatever it is).

[koukla29]

It's true that dreams and counseling are both subjective experiences.  Psychology is mostly a soft science, and there are many types of therapy that haven't been proven or disproven to work.  You're right.  

However, I believe dreams are meaningful, and I believe in a sixth sense.  I can't prove it, but I think we are much more intuitive than we even know.  

[slow_healer]

Just another take on your situation. While I don't agree that dreams convey significant meaning, I do believe that the more something is being processed in your subconscious mind, the more likely it is to manifest in your dreams. You say you've been working on putting this person behind you, but that doesn't solve your problems to begin with (needing somebody, having positive friends, or whatnot). It sounds like your mind is still working through that.

As long as you perceive this man to be someone who could take care of all your problems (potentially and figuratively speaking of course), he will remain in your thoughts because you are still looking for someone who can take care of you.

Be careful, as reading into dreams is like creating a self-fulfilling prophecy. I've had many great dreams that I wish were true, but I've also had ugly nightmares that I'm grateful are just in my head. Too bad reality isn't something we could just pick and choose. Good luck!

[barn babe]

"How can it be a coincidence if someone frequently (not just once or twice) dreams situations that really do happen?"

You are confusing dream reporting with the dream itself.  Dream reporting is too subjective to be considered valid. Secondary revision, leaving out material, adding in material - the person reporting about their dream could not be objective in the slightest in order to give a  dream any credence whatsoever. Which is why you can ascribe any meaning you want to it.

" Do you believe in a sixth sense?"

No.

"In addition, have you ever had a dream that bothered you, and once you took the time to really think it through, realized it had a lot of meaning into your subconscious thinking about a situation you were dealing with?"

I don't allow dreams to "bother" me. To me, dreams are meaningless. We have too much information stored in various parts of our brain from our entire lives for dreams to have any validity whatsoever or to be able to "interpret" dreams with any valid objectivity.  

"There actually is a type of therapy called drama therapy that concentrates on the meaning of a person's dreams.  This type of therapy takes a person's dream and actually creates a sort of play out of it, where the dreamer is the director who assigns parts/roles of their dreams to different people to act out. "

Sounds bogus to me, but I guess it could be construed as a form of "talk therapy." I'm not against talk therapy but dream "therapy" clearly is a subjective situation, since absolutely  no objectivity can be used to interpret a dream one has had.  

" I have actually seen people break down once they realized how deep and meaningful their dream really is for them."

Doesn't surprise me. People break down during therapy for all kinds of reasons - getting in touch with painful feelings or experiences or discussing conflicts or desires. Happens all the time.

Dream states can be quantitatively measured on EEGs. So dreams can be counted, as well as probably adding other objective data to quantify dream states, like whether they occur during REM sleep or non-REM sleep and the intensity of the sleep state or conditions that cause the dreams.  But qualitatively? It can't be done. It hasn't been done yet. Psychology is a soft science, a "pseudo-science." And I haven't read about any evidence that dream "interp," if you can call it that, has any objective basis in reality.

Until then, I consider dreams to be simply the garbage that gets sifted through the neural synapses of our brains, a filter containing the unconscious thoughts, memories, actions, behaviors, and everything else that's been stored in various parts of our brains.

[koukla29]

Sorry hatrick, don't mean to take the focus off what you are going through.  However, maybe my sidetrack was actually relevent to you.  The drama therapy.  Can you get some friends to act your dream out, or if you cannot get it acted out, can you write it in sort of a play mode for you to read aloud to yourself?  You might be able to figure out why it was so disturbing to you.  Also, you could journal about your feelings.  It sounds like you still need some closure on what has happened.  

Sometimes when I have had a dream that bugs me, I don't sleep well for a few days.  Hot cocoa and a good book help me... sometimes even a boring book really helps;)

PS. I don't know what your original post was about, but sounds like you are in the midst of figuring out a lot of things for yourself.  

[hatrick03]

Koukla, I agree with you. I think it is more than just coincidences. But, I don't want this to turn into a debate about dreams. Could we just keep it on the original topic, please? I probably shouldn't have addressed the comment about dreams being meaningless - we're all obviously going to have different opinions on the topic - but, I just didn't like someone making light of something that had an impact on me and that *I* take seriously. I'm the only one that had this dream, and no one else is in the position to say whether it was meaningless or not because they didn't experience it. I would also never say that someone else's views on dreams, politics, sodas, is ridiculous. I believe that dreams do have meanings, and if you think that's ridiculous, too bad, that's your problem.  The dream isn't the key issue or a key issue here - it's the underlying feelings that the dream brought out (Sorry if this sounds rude, but it's 3:30am and I'm having trouble sleeping.).

Mayflowers, I forgot to add to my previous post: Thank you for your supportive comments. I think you have something there - it may be certain qualities in him that I'm responding to, rather than him.

[koukla29]

How can it be a coincidence if someone frequently (not just once or twice) dreams situations that really do happen?  Do you believe in a sixth sense?  Just wondering.  In addition, have you ever had a dream that bothered you, and once you took the time to really think it through, realized it had a lot of meaning into your subconscious thinking about a situation you were dealing with?  There actually is a type of therapy called drama therapy that concentrates on the meaning of a person's dreams.  This type of therapy takes a person's dream and actually creates a sort of play out of it, where the dreamer is the director who assigns parts/roles of their dreams to different people to act out.  Sometimes the parts are inanimate objects as well.  What is suppose to happen through this process, is a person will figure out the meaning of their dream through seeing it act out.  I have actually seen people break down once they realized how deep and meaningful their dream really is for them.  

To be honest with you, I'm not sure exactly what I believe on this subject, but your firm belief that dreams have no meaning is interesting to me.  I think you are right in a way because of course you cannot sit around all day wondering about the meaning of your dreams - it will drive a person insane!  However, we have only tapped into about 10% of what the human mind can do.  There is a lot science has yet to prove or disprove.  

PS. I really enjoy reading your posts:)    



  

[hatrick03]

Sorry for the lack of background info. I thought with the changes they've made to this board (the posters' names highlighted in blue), we'd be able to click on the person's name and get to the other threads they've started. Guess not - my name isn't even highlighted for some reason. :( Oh well, here are my other threads:

http://www.medhelp.org/forums/RelationshipSupport/messages/35.html

http://www.medhelp.org/forums/RelationshipSupport/messages/302.html

BB: I don't think dreams are meaningless. I believe in symbolism in dreams, for instance. I often dream I'm in school, which is supposed to mean I'm unsatisfied with my life (which is true). My mom and I both sometimes have premonitions in dreams: she dreamed of a school bus crash once, and the next morning saw a school bus crash on the news. Days before my parrot died, I kept dreaming about seeing him dead in his cage (and he hadn't been ill at all before his death, he died suddenly). Also, days before my apartment was robbed, I dreamed about frantically going around my bedroom looking for missing things. I don't claim to be a swami, lol, but I do sometimes think we're sent messages in dreams.

[mayflowers]

I didn't respond earlier because I couldn't find the first post you mentioned.  From this last post, the issue is becoming clearer.  It does sound like you are vulnerable right now so this doctor is somehow touching a nerve in you.  It may be too hard to figure out what that nerve is or why you have it so I wouldn't think too hard on that one.  Once I met a guy who used to come into our office and for some reason, we just had sparks.  He just had the nicest face and seemed so "nice".  There was a softness about him.  It was right after my divorce and I think that's what I needed.  BTW, nothing ever happened between us or anything.  My point is that maybe right now you are vulnerable to this guy because of what you've been through and those younger guys just don't have what this guy has?  Look at it as maybe you need this quality in a person.   That's why you can't forget him...there's something there you need.  Kind of a wake up call if you will of what to look for in the next man you have a relationship with.
For your own sake, never get involve with someone who is already involved/married....it's just messy and a waste of time.

And I understand about not having positive, supportive people around you.  I don't either right now and it's very difficult.  But it's making me stronger because I have to get stronger.  I'm the only one who can do it, noone can do it for me.   Once your job starts, you'll be busy and meet new people and soon you will forget him.

I'm not sure if I'm getting it all right but I wish you well in your search for answers...take care...

[hatrick03]

Wait a minute - who says that I'm settling for anyone? I've never responded favorably to him touching/hugging me or his comments - if he had wanted to go further than that or hinted at it, I likely would've been freaked out about it and not gone for it (married or not - I can't keep track). I'm not into instability in a man as I've already dealt with enough of that in my own life. No, I'm not interested in that - I'm just concerned and puzzled at how difficult it is to forget about him and look at him in a negative light. I've never been the mamby pamby type to get hung up over a man - especially conservative, religious (says he is, but I somehow don't see that) middle-aged white men. I'm normally attracted to younger men outside of my race with liberal ideals. It absolutely makes me mad that this man keeps entering my thoughts. My job doesn't start until fall, and I think I just don't have enough to do. I also don't have enough positive, supportive people in my life. I've felt like he's the only person I can talk about my depression with. No one else seems to understand. That is why I'm worried about cutting him out of my life. I've been doing so much better, but I have been having more anxious feelings lately about working in the fall and being out on my own again.

[koukla29]

BB: Do you really think dreams have no meaning?

OP: I agree with the other posters - switch doctors.  You should be going to your doctor to seek medical advice and help, not for a relationship that exceeds the doctor/patient limit.  Good luck - there are so many good ones out there!

[bip]

Ya, switch doctors  I agree with the other posters........

[PlateletGal]

Switch physicians' and as barn babe said, "forget about the dreams". That's the problem with many women --- we are so hooked up on that fantasy of what "could be".

[anxiousmomtobe?]

Switch docs.

Go to one you are not attracted to in the least.

this one is a creep.