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"Why Do I Still Have Thyroid Symptoms? When My Lab Tests are Normal" by Datis Kharrazian
An open discussion of the book...
Let me preface this by saying that this book has had a lot of recent exposure on this forum. Many of us have read it due to the recommendation of another member. Some of us found it severely lacking in fact and scientific backup. I found it to be little more than an infomercial promoting a shaky theory and a network of “trained practitioners” around the country. It also pushes a line of products available “only through the author”. The book claims to explain the cause of Hashi’s and suggests that the protocol can “cure” (eliminate thyroid antibodies) Hashi’s.
So, I’d like to open up a discussion. Anyone is welcome to ask questions that the book generated, and anyone is welcome to answer those questions…even if you haven’t read the book, if you have any insight that will help explain some of the inconsistencies, I’d love to hear from you.
I have so many questions that it’s difficult to know where to start, so let me start by examining K’s theory on the cause of Hashi’s:
K’s theory is that gluten is the cause of Hashi’s. Anti-gluten (gliadin) antibodies spill out of a “leaky gut” into the bloodstream. Once out of the gut, these antibodies attack thyroid “tissue” because it has a “similar” molecular structure to gluten. According to K, this is how Hashi’s arises.
My first question: Since gluten antibodies are only present in full-blown autoimmune celiac disease, how does this apply to those of us without celiac? What causes Hashi’s in those of us without anti-gluten antibodies?
I suspect we will have a lot more questions than answers on this thread. I hope those question will help members decide whether it’s worth buying this book and will help them read it in an appropriately critical manner if they do buy it.
Let me preface this by saying that this book has had a lot of recent exposure on this forum. Many of us have read it due to the recommendation of another member. Some of us found it severely lacking in fact and scientific backup. I found it to be little more than an infomercial promoting a shaky theory and a network of “trained practitioners” around the country. It also pushes a line of products available “only through the author”. The book claims to explain the cause of Hashi’s and suggests that the protocol can “cure” (eliminate thyroid antibodies) Hashi’s.
So, I’d like to open up a discussion. Anyone is welcome to ask questions that the book generated, and anyone is welcome to answer those questions…even if you haven’t read the book, if you have any insight that will help explain some of the inconsistencies, I’d love to hear from you.
I have so many questions that it’s difficult to know where to start, so let me start by examining K’s theory on the cause of Hashi’s:
K’s theory is that gluten is the cause of Hashi’s. Anti-gluten (gliadin) antibodies spill out of a “leaky gut” into the bloodstream. Once out of the gut, these antibodies attack thyroid “tissue” because it has a “similar” molecular structure to gluten. According to K, this is how Hashi’s arises.
My first question: Since gluten antibodies are only present in full-blown autoimmune celiac disease, how does this apply to those of us without celiac? What causes Hashi’s in those of us without anti-gluten antibodies?
I suspect we will have a lot more questions than answers on this thread. I hope those question will help members decide whether it’s worth buying this book and will help them read it in an appropriately critical manner if they do buy it.
Once again, let me say that there is no doubt that some people feel better following K's protocol. However, the central question is whether that is due to improved thyroid health or just improved general and/or gut health.
My question about the "missing link" tying K's theory to thyroid disease is THE basic building block upon which this theory, book, and protocol are all based. So, no, K does not have to be 100% right, but his basic premise upon which he bases everything else does have to hold water.
I have no problem with recommending his protocol...my question is whether or not we have seen any science tying this to thyroid disease that warrants its being so ubiquitously recommended on a THYROID forum. Perhaps until (if) the tie is established, it would be better off referred to another forum (celiac, nutrition, adrenal for example).
Stella, I think in our own frustrated way what we are trying to achieve is a "team" approach. I and obviously several others, have become uncomfortable with the EXTENT to which K, THE book, the protocol and g/f in general have been recommended on this forum. It's too ubiquitous. I personally fear that this forum is becoming a mouthpiece for K and helping him promote his theory. I am open to new treatments...I've always said that we have pitifully few available, and a new one would be welcome. However, that is no reason to throw caution to the wind and run with this before we have proof that it works.
As I said, I think this subject would be best discussed on another forum unless a positive link is established between this theory and THYROID.
The fact of the matter is that we all have to be comfortable with what is being posted on this forum if we are to take a "team" approach. I agree with Deb that this discussion has been great. A lot of things have been aired that obviously have needed to be for a long time. I think it's time that some concessions were made to those of us questioning this book, etc. My concerns are very real, and I feel that they are being dismissed and ignored. I think we have to come to some compromise for the continued success of this forum.
I have personal obligations this week, so pardon me for being slow in replying.
My question about the "missing link" tying K's theory to thyroid disease is THE basic building block upon which this theory, book, and protocol are all based. So, no, K does not have to be 100% right, but his basic premise upon which he bases everything else does have to hold water.
I have no problem with recommending his protocol...my question is whether or not we have seen any science tying this to thyroid disease that warrants its being so ubiquitously recommended on a THYROID forum. Perhaps until (if) the tie is established, it would be better off referred to another forum (celiac, nutrition, adrenal for example).
Stella, I think in our own frustrated way what we are trying to achieve is a "team" approach. I and obviously several others, have become uncomfortable with the EXTENT to which K, THE book, the protocol and g/f in general have been recommended on this forum. It's too ubiquitous. I personally fear that this forum is becoming a mouthpiece for K and helping him promote his theory. I am open to new treatments...I've always said that we have pitifully few available, and a new one would be welcome. However, that is no reason to throw caution to the wind and run with this before we have proof that it works.
As I said, I think this subject would be best discussed on another forum unless a positive link is established between this theory and THYROID.
The fact of the matter is that we all have to be comfortable with what is being posted on this forum if we are to take a "team" approach. I agree with Deb that this discussion has been great. A lot of things have been aired that obviously have needed to be for a long time. I think it's time that some concessions were made to those of us questioning this book, etc. My concerns are very real, and I feel that they are being dismissed and ignored. I think we have to come to some compromise for the continued success of this forum.
I have personal obligations this week, so pardon me for being slow in replying.
no one can say "right" or "wrong" on a community forum. The topic of this book and post is being discussed compared to all forms of treatment on a researched level.
I found this type of 'debate' a lot more easing and informative due to the fact that everyone is explaining their own circumstances...what they found, what they know to be true and untrue and basically its not a case of 'one size fits all'.
Its been a pleasure reading these informative posts...as they have been done in a professional way and basically 'digging deeper' with everyone coming up with ideas and theories rather than blatent statements.
I have enjoyed reading these posts and I am sure I can also say ,...that others will learn from them.
Its been a pleasure reading these informative posts...as they have been done in a professional way and basically 'digging deeper' with everyone coming up with ideas and theories rather than blatent statements.
I have enjoyed reading these posts and I am sure I can also say ,...that others will learn from them.
Pardon for my English. I do know better, but this website must have some auto-guessing and completing words for us. I have had to correct dozens that start out the same & then are quite different. Of course, I can make typos in addition. Sorry for not catching all. Oh...
and sometimes my keyboard leaves out a whole word--just did but I caught it this time.
Peace, ggma
and sometimes my keyboard leaves out a whole word--just did but I caught it this time.
Peace, ggma
Back to K's book & why it was written....
Just because K is not 100% right with his theories does not mean that everything he says has no merit and it is wrong to bash him just because he is trying to make a profit or that his was just a chiropractor...not an MD. He may be making tons of money, or not. MD;s often have an interest in the labs they use & definitely in the "practice" they are in. He did not write that book just off the top of his head. He put a lot of time and effort into his theory. Why? Maybe he was helping his patients feel better when their MDs were not. Isn't that why he wrote the book?
I am 80 years young, and am still learning and still lots of questions.You know, "The more you know, the more you know you don't know." My father had a PhD in education, used to teach at the graduate level at Penn State U. He claimed that the most educated person he ever met did not know how to read or write...was a rich farmer/land owner in the WV hills who knew everything he needed to, including how to compute compound interest in his head instantly. So K was not an MD, so what? My father had an open mind, and so I try to, also, basing what makes sense according to my own experiences what I already understand, including from other people's experiences. (Can I post experiences somewhere else on MedHelp?)
The one thing in his book which was an "a-ha!" moment for me was the different symptoms for TH-1 and TH-2 types. Although our labs both showed both my husband and me as hypothyroid, we did not have the same symptoms. He is obviously TH-1 and I am TH-2...both of us autoimmune with lots of allergies and reactions to meds we had never even had before!
K's nutritional and proper digestion advice is good for the most part. We started changing our diet when my husband's mother became diabetic. Then about forty years ago to lose weight, we tried the Dr. Adkin's diet. He was not diabetic then, is now. Cutting out carbs (including sugar) all at once, I was as sick for two weeks as any alcoholic going cold turkey! I could not go as carb free as the diet called for, but I never added white sugar or white flour back. The extra protein was not good for my husband's kidneys. So yes, it is not good to eliminate that many carbs as that diet called for. We have both been a LOT healthier since making some lasting dietary changes and adding supplements, teas & spices (try fresh tumeric & ginger for pain). Did K develop his own formulas to make things more simple for his patients? Don't know that, either. Some of his might even be less expensive than wholesale for some major well respected brands...I haven't done the math. Gluten? Don't know, yet.
Some things may never change..."One man's meat may be another man"s poison." and "What is good for the goose may not be good for the gander." I like the one, "Let your food be your medicine." Medicine was practiced more or less successfully over the centuries before modern labs & meds made in a lab, etc., as it still is. Some changes have been good, many are not. Labs can now confirm much but still have many false negatives. Are all of K's theories confirmed? I think not. Will they be? Have no idea. Does he help some people with his protocol, even though his premise may be false? Yes, it seem so. Will I try it? Probably not. Have I learned anything helpful from his book? Yes....and from these forums, too. Thank you.
Peace, ggma
Just because K is not 100% right with his theories does not mean that everything he says has no merit and it is wrong to bash him just because he is trying to make a profit or that his was just a chiropractor...not an MD. He may be making tons of money, or not. MD;s often have an interest in the labs they use & definitely in the "practice" they are in. He did not write that book just off the top of his head. He put a lot of time and effort into his theory. Why? Maybe he was helping his patients feel better when their MDs were not. Isn't that why he wrote the book?
I am 80 years young, and am still learning and still lots of questions.You know, "The more you know, the more you know you don't know." My father had a PhD in education, used to teach at the graduate level at Penn State U. He claimed that the most educated person he ever met did not know how to read or write...was a rich farmer/land owner in the WV hills who knew everything he needed to, including how to compute compound interest in his head instantly. So K was not an MD, so what? My father had an open mind, and so I try to, also, basing what makes sense according to my own experiences what I already understand, including from other people's experiences. (Can I post experiences somewhere else on MedHelp?)
The one thing in his book which was an "a-ha!" moment for me was the different symptoms for TH-1 and TH-2 types. Although our labs both showed both my husband and me as hypothyroid, we did not have the same symptoms. He is obviously TH-1 and I am TH-2...both of us autoimmune with lots of allergies and reactions to meds we had never even had before!
K's nutritional and proper digestion advice is good for the most part. We started changing our diet when my husband's mother became diabetic. Then about forty years ago to lose weight, we tried the Dr. Adkin's diet. He was not diabetic then, is now. Cutting out carbs (including sugar) all at once, I was as sick for two weeks as any alcoholic going cold turkey! I could not go as carb free as the diet called for, but I never added white sugar or white flour back. The extra protein was not good for my husband's kidneys. So yes, it is not good to eliminate that many carbs as that diet called for. We have both been a LOT healthier since making some lasting dietary changes and adding supplements, teas & spices (try fresh tumeric & ginger for pain). Did K develop his own formulas to make things more simple for his patients? Don't know that, either. Some of his might even be less expensive than wholesale for some major well respected brands...I haven't done the math. Gluten? Don't know, yet.
Some things may never change..."One man's meat may be another man"s poison." and "What is good for the goose may not be good for the gander." I like the one, "Let your food be your medicine." Medicine was practiced more or less successfully over the centuries before modern labs & meds made in a lab, etc., as it still is. Some changes have been good, many are not. Labs can now confirm much but still have many false negatives. Are all of K's theories confirmed? I think not. Will they be? Have no idea. Does he help some people with his protocol, even though his premise may be false? Yes, it seem so. Will I try it? Probably not. Have I learned anything helpful from his book? Yes....and from these forums, too. Thank you.
Peace, ggma
The TH1 and TH2 information had me re-reading it too - many times and to be open about ME and what I have been doing I would like to tell everyone some of the things to at least allow - respect to community posting on odd material such as this.
I found it interesting that a member - TamraW - had found success on non - conventional thyroid therapy. and as we all know we speak "individual" all the time but really?? - when things arise like this its more "individual" then we researched or knew of - isn't it? - She and I had a conversation on "her" wellness and how she achieved it which in the beginning was 'foreign" understanding for me. Now I had to take her information seriously and really understand it and ironically I had already stumbled unto some of Dr. K - as it came prior to her coming forward with the book information. About a week or so prior to her posts on how wonderful she feels and how she did it - I sent an email off researching blindly myself to an associate of Dr. K and LOW AND BEHOLD - I get an email back days after Tamra and I spoke from them to call the office to speak personally. This message also came after 2 doctors I know personally called about reading the same material too and was very interested in it.
I did contact Dr. K's office - they sent me the book - AND I am still in conversation with that office - AND practioners that are also doing similiar - if not identical protacol ( as research for a better word) as the book discusses and seeing results on some levels too nationally - within the United States.
Now - the thing most concerning as they too - as professional MD's and Internal Med Doctors have legimate concerns of validity and testamonials of others but they are spending "great lengths of money" consulting on a doctor level the information that IS legimate research found in there and looking for more pieces to complete that puzzle. At least give them the respect of being doctors that "try" to see logic through learning new information - such as this material found in this book.
We went through a horrible event on this board not to long ago with a young girl almost getting electro-shock therapy for her mental instabilty - ALL DUE off inadequent thyroid treatment. If we didn't have these boards talking FT3 FT4 and all the other things we know aren't regularly practiced and warned that member about the dangers to ECT - could she be permantely hurt or not here if that didn't happen? AND the resources of finding doctors that "do" look at alternative things other than - hum-drum T4 protacol would others that visit here be better? - I doubt I would be well - if I hadn't learned about the ins-and outs - of true /real thyroid help and labs and other things../. and that's what brings me to explore ALL things discussed and depend on members here when things like this come up to be a team.
I can not - nor will I say.... Going G/F is the cure for this autoimmune epidemic - not do I think anyone else is really saying that in this book - OR as a professional - but utilizing this diet and some other things is slowly helping people regain some health with their diseases and not just thyroid. We want to stay pro-active don't we and I can say truthfully... this has been a top thing on my list to really put into a patient respective with ALL the people I have been in contact with professionally. I may have been not posting much lately but I have been working on all this and trying desperately to define and research it outside MH - with other doctors and advocates I trust. - and in hopes - that all this checking information taking lots of man hours - Dr. K would still consider a webinar as he agreed back in June - for us down the road to explain these theories in person more with open questioning.
I found it interesting that a member - TamraW - had found success on non - conventional thyroid therapy. and as we all know we speak "individual" all the time but really?? - when things arise like this its more "individual" then we researched or knew of - isn't it? - She and I had a conversation on "her" wellness and how she achieved it which in the beginning was 'foreign" understanding for me. Now I had to take her information seriously and really understand it and ironically I had already stumbled unto some of Dr. K - as it came prior to her coming forward with the book information. About a week or so prior to her posts on how wonderful she feels and how she did it - I sent an email off researching blindly myself to an associate of Dr. K and LOW AND BEHOLD - I get an email back days after Tamra and I spoke from them to call the office to speak personally. This message also came after 2 doctors I know personally called about reading the same material too and was very interested in it.
I did contact Dr. K's office - they sent me the book - AND I am still in conversation with that office - AND practioners that are also doing similiar - if not identical protacol ( as research for a better word) as the book discusses and seeing results on some levels too nationally - within the United States.
Now - the thing most concerning as they too - as professional MD's and Internal Med Doctors have legimate concerns of validity and testamonials of others but they are spending "great lengths of money" consulting on a doctor level the information that IS legimate research found in there and looking for more pieces to complete that puzzle. At least give them the respect of being doctors that "try" to see logic through learning new information - such as this material found in this book.
We went through a horrible event on this board not to long ago with a young girl almost getting electro-shock therapy for her mental instabilty - ALL DUE off inadequent thyroid treatment. If we didn't have these boards talking FT3 FT4 and all the other things we know aren't regularly practiced and warned that member about the dangers to ECT - could she be permantely hurt or not here if that didn't happen? AND the resources of finding doctors that "do" look at alternative things other than - hum-drum T4 protacol would others that visit here be better? - I doubt I would be well - if I hadn't learned about the ins-and outs - of true /real thyroid help and labs and other things../. and that's what brings me to explore ALL things discussed and depend on members here when things like this come up to be a team.
I can not - nor will I say.... Going G/F is the cure for this autoimmune epidemic - not do I think anyone else is really saying that in this book - OR as a professional - but utilizing this diet and some other things is slowly helping people regain some health with their diseases and not just thyroid. We want to stay pro-active don't we and I can say truthfully... this has been a top thing on my list to really put into a patient respective with ALL the people I have been in contact with professionally. I may have been not posting much lately but I have been working on all this and trying desperately to define and research it outside MH - with other doctors and advocates I trust. - and in hopes - that all this checking information taking lots of man hours - Dr. K would still consider a webinar as he agreed back in June - for us down the road to explain these theories in person more with open questioning.
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