Hepatitis Researcher Alinia question

[St. George]

HR, I have now reached the 6 month mark with Infergen, Riba(2000 mg) and Alinia.  I went neg between 4-6 weeks.  My question is when I first started you were of the opinion not to pre-load the Alinia but rather start it concurrently with the SOC but now I have read that the pre-load is nescessary.  What are your thoughts?  Also, I have been taking bovine lactoferrin in conjunction with everything else but have recently read  it has anti inflammatory properties which we dont want on treatment, correct?

[comeagain]

Isn´t  it this exellent studies that HR is talking about above.
-An analysis of the Japanese lactoferrin trials in HCV show that initial moderate success was followed by longer term failure, so presumably resistance to this viral entry inhibitory substance was developed-

ca

[gauf]

Excellent study. I love all the little adjuncts we can add to SOC. Increasing SVR rates is what it's all about. PPC, Lactoferrin, Oxymatrine, and others are relatively cheap, safe, and (according to studies) effective.

[comeagain]

ty thought it was the same as HCV  but that can be both acute and cronic you learn every day!!

[mremeet]

CHC = chronic hepatitis C

[comeagain]

WTF is CHC

[CockSparrow]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17914966
Sciences, Institute of Medical Science, Mie University Graduate School of Medicine, Tsu, Japan.

OBJECTIVES: Lactoferrin has been reported to inhibit hepatitis C virus (HCV) infection in cultured human hepatocytes and HCV viremia in patients with chronic hepatitis C (CHC). The aim of this study was to evaluate the effect of combined triple therapy of lactoferrin, interferon and ribavirin in patients with CHC. METHODS: A total of 111 Japanese patients with CHC were randomly assigned to a lactoferrin group (n = 50) and a control group (n = 61). The lactoferrin group was treated with lactoferrin for 8 weeks and then with lactoferrin, interferon and ribavirin for 24 weeks; the control group was treated with interferon and ribavirin for 24 weeks. Serum anti-lactoferrin antibody, clinical and laboratory measurement were determined.

RESULTS: The mean HCV RNA titer significantly decreased at the end of lactoferrin monotherapy. Sustained virological response to therapy was significantly higher (P < 0.05) in the lactoferrin responder group (55%) than in the control group (18%).

CONCLUSIONS: The results show that the decrease in HCV RNA titer by lactoferrin monotherapy contributes to the effectiveness of the combined therapy of interferon and ribavirin in patients with CHC. Lactoferrin is a potential useful adjunct treatment for patients with CHC.
PMID: 17914966 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

CS

[Marcia2202]

'bump'

here it is

[Marcia2202]

thanks

[gauf]

http://search.lef.org/search/default.aspx?s=1&QUERY=lactoferrin

[Marcia2202]

Thank you for all your help, so I guess I can go back to drinking my whey protein after all. I'll try to keep it at a reasonable dose. :-) I will try to get my hands on the real stuff for later. I will most probably have to order it from the States, what brand do you suggest?

Marcia

[gauf]

Oh, whey protein is not the concentrated lactoferrin I assumed you were on. Thats good. I have been taking whey protein as part of my weight training for several weeks prior to tox and still do. I wouldn't think that would cause a viral resistance to the highly purified form. Think about the pure form at EOT by all means and thank you for the comments.

[Marcia2202]

Thanks. I've only been drinking it for about two weeks. Some times I forget a day or two in between.  Predosing was not my intention at all. I thought I was just drinking my whey protein. And the dose has only been around 350mg per day, some day 500mg.

So I wonder, if this doesn't correspond to a lower dosage for 'health promotion' and does not really interact with viral suppression. According to the report on your profile the research has been done with a highly purified product and higher dosages.

'The dosage of lactoferrin varies from one manufacturer to another. Most of the research on bovine lactoferrin has been on the highly purified product. The dosage for this product is typically 250 to 500 mg one to three times per day. The dosage depends on an individual’s size and indication. Lower dosages are for general health promotion, children, and smaller individuals; higher dosages are for specific indications and adults. For maximum absorption, lactoferrin should be taken before meals or on an empty stomach.'

I'm really glad to hear that you are not having to much trouble with your current tx. We are all rooting for you, big time!

Marcia

[gauf]

....also started oxymatrine at the 4 week mark.

[gauf]

I was not aware that you were predosing lactoferrin. I am not sure if stopping in your case is wise as the virus may mutate around it anyway, I just don't know, so another opinion from a source smarter than me (like HR et al.) would be welcome indeed.
--------------------------------
Scratch, I have been keeping a treatment diary in my journal titled "3rd tox begins" for a blow by blow account of sx.

In a nutshell, At the 3 week mark I had a 4+ log drop. VL >50 <600. I had my WBC tank around that time and stopped DD and started nuepogen and lactoferrin. Did a single dose of peg every 4 days (2x) then every 5 days (2x) and now at 1 a week. Borderline anemia but started procrit a wk ago. Started lactoferrin after the 4 log drop. 1400 Riba (sometimes 1600 if feeling good) Overall, tox has been mild (knock on wood) as far as sx go. Still on all supps except olive leaf, astragulas and cordycep.

[merryBe]

hmm...this all gives one pause for thought.

I am on the PPC....and began dosing Alinia after going UND....so who knows if that is a leg up or down....

and I was going to get some lactoferrin to help with my iron load...but after reading all that, maybe I better just quit while I'm ahead....

mb

[scratchinghead]

Where you at in your treatment/results?
This is June 26, 2008. Maybe there is a post out there I missed. Otherwise, we all would like to know.

Your fans

[Marcia2202]

Thanks so much gauf, I will stop taking it right away.

Marcia

[gauf]

Well, certainly don't take it until you are UND. The most sensitive test you can get too. For those who err on the side of caution, wait until EOT and add it as you taper down off the peg, (this will help your own immune system to come back online).

For those of us who are not so cautious due to different circumstances (i.e. stage 4, relapser, chirrotic, etc)  then taking when reaching UND may make some sense. It is a personal decision of course. But I would recommend a simulstart with PPC as it has been proven to increase SVR rates. Don't forget the alinia either.

Godspeed.

[Marcia2202]

I'm still wondering when is the right time to take it? Can you please read my earlier post, would really appreciate a hint on that.

Thanks, Marcia

[comeagain]

When I asked my doc about lactoferrin he just said take an exta glas of milk instead why pay expensive money on thing that is not gonna work better, and when I said camelmilk has the best lactoferrin he laughed and said yeah the Somalis( theres quit al ot of them in Sweden refugees) think its a miracle drug even bath in it.

And this guy ( the doc) is involved in an studie where they using vaccine as a immunity booster for people over 40 I think could be 50, the same vaccin that they have tryed as a cure in another studie he didn`belive in that vaccine either as prophylaxis or cure but maybe as a booster he said.

I think I need HR to chime in and tell me if i shall dare to take the stuff,
Ty anyway for your education mremeet much appreciated.

I´ve got some heavy links from willing about resistans and how the new meds inhibtitors
of different kinds are targeting specific areas of the cells or was it areas of the virus,
I`m planing on read up on them if  and when the foggy brain allows it.

Hope everything is going smooth with life after HCV.

ca

[gauf]

Dude, you are smart. Here is some info on Lactoferrin:

http://www.doctormurray.com/newsletter/2-14-2004.htm

[mremeet]

"But is their a risk lactoferrin making the virus resistant if you take it after being UND.
And resitant to what lactoferrin or soc?"

I don't know squat about lactoferrin, I hadn't heard about it until I read this post. I'm just a recovered patient like you are, and frankly I haven't been keeping up on the latest stuff. So I'm not the one to ask. But based on what HR has suggested above, it sounds like it's a substance that could lead to viral resistance if dosed by itself or perhaps even with SOC if the patient's SOC response is relatively weak (as also occurs with PI's, especially if only interferon is taken without ribavirin). For instance, as well as telaprevir works, there are some who get it along with a full dose of SOC and they end up experiencing viral rebound during treatment. The reason that usually happens is because their response to SOC is weak, it isn't strong enough to get the job done. This allows the virus to survive within the body long enough to develop resistance to the telaprevir. After the virus is resistant to telaprevir, all there is to stop it is SOC. And since the patient's response to SOC is weak, typically there is viral re-emergence or the virus simply never reaches UND and floats along at some relatively low level. This is also usually what happens to those who were given only interferon (without ribavirin) and telaprevir.

And you ask what would the virus be reistant to, lactoferrin or SOC? One of the biggest strengths of SOC is that it does not develop SOC resistant strains, even if the treatment is a failure. That's why someone can treat unsuccessfully with SOC one or more times and come back again and beat it successfully on another attempt. SOC provokes a complex and multi-pronged immune response within your body that makes it nearly impossible for the virus to fully adapt to. It may find a way to survive by hiding and using other strategies, but to my knowledge it can't really mutate itself into some kind of specific form that will always evade or thwart SOC's antiviral properties. But when it comes to something like a protease inhibitor (like telaprevir or boceprevir for instance), these drugs act on the virus differently. They are direct acting antivirals, and they only have one mode of efficacy - they block or inhibit replication. They do not involve a host of complicated and varying forces that work against the virus like SOC does. So if the virus can come up with a strain that evades that one strategy, then it's home free. Thats why when a PI is dosed as a monotherapy, it causes a great decline in viral load initially, but usually within 2 weeks (or so) the virus bounces right back to pre-tx levels and is thereafter immune to the effects of the PI. PI monotherapy is always a failure, I have never heard of anyone successfully being treated for HCV with PI monotherapy. And once that strain takes hold within your body, the protease inhibitor is all but useless. And some vestige of that resistant strain will remain inside you...probably forever, unless some other antiviral strategy is applied.

So getting back to the question of lactoferrin - again I don't know what lactoferrin is (too lazy to google it right now). But based on what HR has mentioned above, it sounds like it may have a more one dimensional mode of efficacy (like a PI), which by definition means it is vulnerable to developing resistance if not applied cautiously in conjunction with other antivirals (like SOC). So my guess is that if you took SOC and lactoferrin and failed to achieve UND, you might develop a lactoferrin resistant virus and NOT an SOC resistant virus (again for the reasons mentioned above). Similarly, someone who failed telaprevir and SOC treatment probably has telaprevir resistant virus - but should not have SOC resistant virus.

[Marcia2202]

sorry the typos

[comeagain]

I still don´t understand I know about the virus in bloodstream and that they need cells to reproduce, and hiding in cells, remember I´ve relapsed after being UND at least w12 and EOT 24w .
Thats the whole reason why I`m thinking of adding something to boost the immunialsystem.

But is their a risk lactoferrin making the virus resistant if you take it after being UND.
And resitant to what lactoferrin or soc?

Is it ok for me to take it or is it not, last the 12weeks?

ca