Aa
Desperately need HELP!!!!!!!
I have a four year old son with autism that is just not grasping going to the potty. He does okay occasionally with standing on a stool and "teeteeing", but refuses to poop. What makes this even more trying is that he is now "playing" with his poop. Yep, you guessed it, he is taking it out of his diaper and playing with it. He just doesn't understand that there is anything wrong with this behavior. My son's development has drastically improved in most areas the last six months except for potty training, obviously. I would greatly appreciate any help that anyone can provide! Thank You!
He is only 5, and also has autism with the speech and communication difficulties that involves.
I just started by observing things my son was doing and questioning what he was doing and why. I have also found it useful that I, along with other family members, also have alot of sensory issues going on, so in many instances I had an 'idea' as to what the problem or interest was.
For example about a year ago I noticed my son borrowing my pink sunglasses. He kept looking through them them over the top of the rim. Then he started testing the distance of close up objects with his arms or legs, again looking through the glasses them over the rim. Then he started finding different floor coverings eg. grass to concrete to block paving etc and again kept looking through and over the glasses. Then he started toe walking between the different patterns etc. It was obvious to me that he was seeing something 'different' through the pink sunglasses. He kept handing the glasses to me and saying 'look, see'. When I told him that whether I looked through the sunglasses or not I only saw the same thing his face looked surprised and shocked. So I told him, maybe your eyes sometimes see things that mine don't. There is much evidence by autistic adults about different visual perceptions including fragmentation, visual agnosia, only 2D vision, problems with depth perception etc. If I accept that sometimes he may see things differently to me, and my son learns that sometimes he may see things differently to me then we have kind of crossed a bridge and when I see him demonstrating behaviour which indicates a visual perceptual difference I can try to get him to describe what he is experiencing.
As you have done I would encourage your child to use things that stimulate the different senses to see what he does with them. For example if I turn on the radio at a volume that I like and then ask my son to turn the radio to a sound level he likes he will immediately turn it down. What have I learnt from that? What kind of environmental auditory difficulties might my son have as a result of what he has just shown me?
My son has only just started to do some drawings and alot of them are reproductions of things he has seen rather than just from the imagination. He cannot read or write yet. He has no interest in writing or colouring. He likes puzzles, lego, construction etc. I would say always go with what they are interested in and try to teach them things using their areas of interest. For example one boy was interested in the garbage trucks. So his mother taught him numeracy counting garbage bins. He also learnt about the garbage collection system, colours and colours of service vehices, uniforms, street names/house numbers, geography, urbanisation, rubbish tips, pollution, disease prevention etc etc all through this one area of interest.
I just started by observing things my son was doing and questioning what he was doing and why. I have also found it useful that I, along with other family members, also have alot of sensory issues going on, so in many instances I had an 'idea' as to what the problem or interest was.
For example about a year ago I noticed my son borrowing my pink sunglasses. He kept looking through them them over the top of the rim. Then he started testing the distance of close up objects with his arms or legs, again looking through the glasses them over the rim. Then he started finding different floor coverings eg. grass to concrete to block paving etc and again kept looking through and over the glasses. Then he started toe walking between the different patterns etc. It was obvious to me that he was seeing something 'different' through the pink sunglasses. He kept handing the glasses to me and saying 'look, see'. When I told him that whether I looked through the sunglasses or not I only saw the same thing his face looked surprised and shocked. So I told him, maybe your eyes sometimes see things that mine don't. There is much evidence by autistic adults about different visual perceptions including fragmentation, visual agnosia, only 2D vision, problems with depth perception etc. If I accept that sometimes he may see things differently to me, and my son learns that sometimes he may see things differently to me then we have kind of crossed a bridge and when I see him demonstrating behaviour which indicates a visual perceptual difference I can try to get him to describe what he is experiencing.
As you have done I would encourage your child to use things that stimulate the different senses to see what he does with them. For example if I turn on the radio at a volume that I like and then ask my son to turn the radio to a sound level he likes he will immediately turn it down. What have I learnt from that? What kind of environmental auditory difficulties might my son have as a result of what he has just shown me?
My son has only just started to do some drawings and alot of them are reproductions of things he has seen rather than just from the imagination. He cannot read or write yet. He has no interest in writing or colouring. He likes puzzles, lego, construction etc. I would say always go with what they are interested in and try to teach them things using their areas of interest. For example one boy was interested in the garbage trucks. So his mother taught him numeracy counting garbage bins. He also learnt about the garbage collection system, colours and colours of service vehices, uniforms, street names/house numbers, geography, urbanisation, rubbish tips, pollution, disease prevention etc etc all through this one area of interest.
I found your comments very interesting. Unfortunately it is very difficult for us to get our son to talk about thinks that are difficult for him. He is very verible, but also very internal, which I find is something very unusually for someone who is 5. On occation he has told has come out with things that has totally come out of nowhere. But to try get him to tell you is impossible. I often think of his mind as a very difficult puzzle to unlock. Recently he has taking a great interest in taking video's with our camera. After viewing one of his shoots it I noticed that I heard little comments and a world from his eyes that I didn't get normally. He is not into drawing other than structured things like mazes, maps and golf coarses so it is a side that I normally wouldn't get to see. He has made comments that his mind gets stuck sometimes and I am now try to find ways to help him but it seems difficult as our doctors do not seem to provide any assistance. Any additional ideas are very welcome!
If you consider the above post to be true, then you will understand why there are so many adults with aspergers/autism saying that they do have empathy, theory of mind etc it is just that they cannot get all the relevant information together in the time space allowed to give the right response.
If you also consider the sensory differences each child has, then you will see how 'logical' alot of their behaviours are. And once you are able to 'cross the bridge' between what are essentially two different perceptual worlds, then communication between you and your child will improve immensely.
My child is also diagnosised with sensory integration problems, and as he is verbal we have both found it very helpful to get him to tell us after an event 'what caused it', and also for us to explain to him that he does experience things differently.
Frequently incoming sensory stimulus becomes overwhelming, but if they can give you their experiences, you can give them advice about how to deal with it better.
My son is 7.5 years old and yesterday we had to go to a major toy shop to buy a present for a child's birthday party he was going to later that day. My son loves going into toy shops, but he tends to them obsesses over the toys he likes and wants to take home and sometimes gets totally overwhelmed and it all ends in tears. Yesterday he suggested that it might be better for him to wait in the car rather than go into the shop because he 'cannot control his feelings'. I find that amazing for a child on the spectrum, at his age, to recognise the potential difficulty and suggest an answer. In the end we did all go in together and he was okay. But if your child can learn how to manage their own environment and cope better then we can't really ask for more can we?
The other thing I want to say about getting overwhelmed is that my son says it feels very bad and he cannot get it under control. So they experience sensations/emotions that appear as an over reaction to us, but they are not. And they also cannot get their emotions under control. He frequently says 'I don't know why I felt that/said that/did that'. It has been compared to the show curtain query. If you consider the water from the show are the emotions then the show curtain contains them into a small space. If there is no shower curtain then the water/emotions are going to get everywhere.
If you also consider the sensory differences each child has, then you will see how 'logical' alot of their behaviours are. And once you are able to 'cross the bridge' between what are essentially two different perceptual worlds, then communication between you and your child will improve immensely.
My child is also diagnosised with sensory integration problems, and as he is verbal we have both found it very helpful to get him to tell us after an event 'what caused it', and also for us to explain to him that he does experience things differently.
Frequently incoming sensory stimulus becomes overwhelming, but if they can give you their experiences, you can give them advice about how to deal with it better.
My son is 7.5 years old and yesterday we had to go to a major toy shop to buy a present for a child's birthday party he was going to later that day. My son loves going into toy shops, but he tends to them obsesses over the toys he likes and wants to take home and sometimes gets totally overwhelmed and it all ends in tears. Yesterday he suggested that it might be better for him to wait in the car rather than go into the shop because he 'cannot control his feelings'. I find that amazing for a child on the spectrum, at his age, to recognise the potential difficulty and suggest an answer. In the end we did all go in together and he was okay. But if your child can learn how to manage their own environment and cope better then we can't really ask for more can we?
The other thing I want to say about getting overwhelmed is that my son says it feels very bad and he cannot get it under control. So they experience sensations/emotions that appear as an over reaction to us, but they are not. And they also cannot get their emotions under control. He frequently says 'I don't know why I felt that/said that/did that'. It has been compared to the show curtain query. If you consider the water from the show are the emotions then the show curtain contains them into a small space. If there is no shower curtain then the water/emotions are going to get everywhere.
If sensory issues are relevant then I would recommend you google the name Olga Bogdashina and read an article by her printed in Autism Today. She has also printed a very good book called Sensory and Perceptual Differences in Autism and Aspergers. At the back of this book there is a caregivers questionnaire that you can complete to get a sensory profile of your child. The Autism Education Outreach service in our city uses this questionnaire, and they have also invited Olga to come and speak to both parents and professionals. She is from the Ukraine and has a daughter with Aspergers and a son with Autism.
It is important to understand that sensory perception fluctuates day to day and throughout the day and can fluctuate between the two extremes eg. hyper-normal-hypo. There can also be difficulties multi-tasking from a sensory point of view. This is called mono-processing. Many people with autism can only focus on one sensory input at a time whether it is looking, listening, smelling, tasting, touching etc. This becomes very relevant in a busy classroom environment when the child may only be able to take in partial information eg. look only and not hear any of the verbal instructions. It also has the same effect in social situations so the child maybe able to speak to another child but cannot monitor the other childs reaction at the same time. Or they may be able to look at another child and some maybe able to interpret facial expressions/emotions etc but they cannot also respond and interact at the same time.
It is important to understand that sensory perception fluctuates day to day and throughout the day and can fluctuate between the two extremes eg. hyper-normal-hypo. There can also be difficulties multi-tasking from a sensory point of view. This is called mono-processing. Many people with autism can only focus on one sensory input at a time whether it is looking, listening, smelling, tasting, touching etc. This becomes very relevant in a busy classroom environment when the child may only be able to take in partial information eg. look only and not hear any of the verbal instructions. It also has the same effect in social situations so the child maybe able to speak to another child but cannot monitor the other childs reaction at the same time. Or they may be able to look at another child and some maybe able to interpret facial expressions/emotions etc but they cannot also respond and interact at the same time.
Thank you. For whatever reason, your comment and explanation on the "sensory needs" just clicked with me. Distraction and sensation-- I guess it was just a relationship I did not understand. The way you described it makes perfect sense. Seth (my son) is either dieing of thirst or throwing his cup- starving to death or not interested in candy. He can get so into playing with a toy that nothing else will even phase him. I dont know if this is a normal autism "thing" (manifestation??) but I do see these focus issues in him. I have a whole new advantage on the situation.
On a side note.....I don't think his diet is an issue- as we are "health nuts", good wholesome foods- and what he doesn't eat naturally we supplement in vitamins and powders snuck into drinks.... But it is something I look forward to discussing with his doctor---- I will post with any further info I get.
and on to schedule. Oddly enouph Seth is not very schedule orientated. He handles changes in times and location great- provided momma or me is around and cheerful. He loves long road trips- I think because he knows grandmas and grandpas and cousins will be at the end- but it makes weekend trips and the like very smooth. I have to, like all parents count every blessing.
And to end this post- I hope maybe something I have typed in this ramble has helped or at least made sense to someone.
Taz68 - Thank you for starting this thread--- I know you did it for you and your son, but in that it is helping me-- I hope you can get some relief too--- and trust me -I feel your pain!
Wishing the best,
Kevin
On a side note.....I don't think his diet is an issue- as we are "health nuts", good wholesome foods- and what he doesn't eat naturally we supplement in vitamins and powders snuck into drinks.... But it is something I look forward to discussing with his doctor---- I will post with any further info I get.
and on to schedule. Oddly enouph Seth is not very schedule orientated. He handles changes in times and location great- provided momma or me is around and cheerful. He loves long road trips- I think because he knows grandmas and grandpas and cousins will be at the end- but it makes weekend trips and the like very smooth. I have to, like all parents count every blessing.
And to end this post- I hope maybe something I have typed in this ramble has helped or at least made sense to someone.
Taz68 - Thank you for starting this thread--- I know you did it for you and your son, but in that it is helping me-- I hope you can get some relief too--- and trust me -I feel your pain!
Wishing the best,
Kevin
I would definately check out sensory issues because I know even alot of adults with autism have difficulties 'feeling' when they need to go to the toilet or feeling hungry or thirstly. It can go either way hyper or hypo or fluctuate between the two throughout the day. For example my son tends not to feel thirsty or wants to drink all the time, or never feels hungry or always seems to be eating. If he is distracted doing something else he loses body sensation, which can also include understanding that he wants to go to the toilet.
I have talked with the doctor about it before and he said that you can get bowel movements into a routine if you always sit on the toilet at the certain time of the day (don't know how practical that is for any of you). Also the ideal position is for the knees to be slightly higher than the hip joint as this brings on the stool.
If you have concerns about the type of stool being passed then it might be worth looking into whether there are any intolerances or changes to diet that might help. This is a bit of a minefield area, and I don't know what tests are legitimate or even practical. For example I would never be able to get my son to give a blood test because of the needles. You can have your child's urine tested for peptides of gluten and casein to see if they are present. But again there is some debate as to the relevance of the findings. However it is relatively easy to try a gluten or casein free diet for some time to see if there is any change. But remember you need to introduce something with calcium to replace the milk eg. soya, and of course there is always the possibility that your child might have an intolerance to one of the replacement foods. I would recommend you see a qualified nutricianist before having a go.
Many children do grow out of certain behaviours. But it is hard dealing with it whilst it is going on especially when there are the communication problems on top of it. How do you get a child to understand that they shouldn't be doing that! Have you tried a picture board showing the process of going to the toilet?
I have talked with the doctor about it before and he said that you can get bowel movements into a routine if you always sit on the toilet at the certain time of the day (don't know how practical that is for any of you). Also the ideal position is for the knees to be slightly higher than the hip joint as this brings on the stool.
If you have concerns about the type of stool being passed then it might be worth looking into whether there are any intolerances or changes to diet that might help. This is a bit of a minefield area, and I don't know what tests are legitimate or even practical. For example I would never be able to get my son to give a blood test because of the needles. You can have your child's urine tested for peptides of gluten and casein to see if they are present. But again there is some debate as to the relevance of the findings. However it is relatively easy to try a gluten or casein free diet for some time to see if there is any change. But remember you need to introduce something with calcium to replace the milk eg. soya, and of course there is always the possibility that your child might have an intolerance to one of the replacement foods. I would recommend you see a qualified nutricianist before having a go.
Many children do grow out of certain behaviours. But it is hard dealing with it whilst it is going on especially when there are the communication problems on top of it. How do you get a child to understand that they shouldn't be doing that! Have you tried a picture board showing the process of going to the toilet?
My 4 year old son does the same thing- for nearly a year now. We tried the play do cure and rewards for potty time and it did seem to get better. He has also improved in every other area. Then shortly after his 4th birthday and continuing now it has gone right back downhill. He has even gotten worst- tonight he started throwing his poop! The only way I know of to curb the behavior is to never NEVER let him be alone. Tonight i was out checking my garden (tomatoes are how I try to maintain sanity) and my wife was checking her email. No more than 3 minutes alone in the living room, and he was playing with toy cars when I stepped out. The birds that have been eating my tomatoes was the last thing in mind when I came back in. I don't believe there is a miracle cure for this behavior, just never EVER EVER leave him alone. Of course I know that is impossible, as we as parents have to do things like work and cook dinner and answer doorbells ect-- oh yeah and sleep.
Angela77 has a point with catch and react method- but if yours is like mine he shows no signs that I see that his is going. No pauses in play, no squatting (more than usually done in play) no faces--- only smell, and by then its too late.
taz68 - I would love to share more detailed experiences with you- if we share maybe we can figure it out. Does your son have diarrhea often? frequent BM's? does he go at any certain times of the day?
Feeling your desperation-
Kevin
Angela77 has a point with catch and react method- but if yours is like mine he shows no signs that I see that his is going. No pauses in play, no squatting (more than usually done in play) no faces--- only smell, and by then its too late.
taz68 - I would love to share more detailed experiences with you- if we share maybe we can figure it out. Does your son have diarrhea often? frequent BM's? does he go at any certain times of the day?
Feeling your desperation-
Kevin
Have you tried rewards for making poop on the potty? I have a treasure chest full of highly preferred candy for one of the kids I work with and give it to him as soon as he is done pooping on the potty. Does your son show signs that he is pooping (pushing noises, goes to a corner and is quiet, red face)? You could try to catch him in the act of pooping, put him on the potty and then reward him for going.
Not sure if playing with something with similar texture would help him or just make the problem worse... but you could try it out. Playdough is fun. Something gross to play with that isn't really gross, just pretend gross, ... I think they must still sell it somewhere... but that slime that comes in a jar. That's icky. There are some other icky sticky things out there that aren't poop either, and with halloween stuff now being stocked in the stores, maybe you can find something. Before we moved, my daughter's occupational therapist had some wierd things for her to play with (my daughter has texture and smell aversions, so she didn't often play with them during a session). I'm sure there must be some kind of web site out there that sells texture things.
I'm sorry that you are going through this problem. How verbal is your son? Can you set up a reward system for not playing with his poop?
I'm sorry that you are going through this problem. How verbal is your son? Can you set up a reward system for not playing with his poop?
My son is on the spectrum, and one of the questions I was asked was does he play with faeces. Fortunately he doesn't, but it must be very common for the paediatrician to ask the question.
I agree with MJthewriter about trying substitute stuff. Is he verbal? You will just have to keep reinforcing it verbally and maybe with picture symbols that he isn't to play with it. However, as he is playing with it do you think he has any sensory differences. The reason I ask is that the smell would put alot of children off, so if he doesn't mind the smell then maybe his smell is hypo sensitive. Does he smell other things or show any other sensory behaviour eg. covering ears, avoiding certain foods/textures or eating non-food items. Is he okay with clothes tags/socks/shoes. Does he appear over sensitive to pain or does he appear not to feel anything?
I agree with MJthewriter about trying substitute stuff. Is he verbal? You will just have to keep reinforcing it verbally and maybe with picture symbols that he isn't to play with it. However, as he is playing with it do you think he has any sensory differences. The reason I ask is that the smell would put alot of children off, so if he doesn't mind the smell then maybe his smell is hypo sensitive. Does he smell other things or show any other sensory behaviour eg. covering ears, avoiding certain foods/textures or eating non-food items. Is he okay with clothes tags/socks/shoes. Does he appear over sensitive to pain or does he appear not to feel anything?
I really enjoyed playdough and modeling clay. I imagine that poop has a similar consistancy. If it's the texture that your son is enjoying, something like playdough may possibly work as a good subsitute. If he has a tendency to eat it, somewhere you can probably find a recipe for edible playdough if you goggle it.
Hopefully more help will come along the way. It seems to be a common thing for autistic children to play with poop? I wonder how it would work to subsitute that with playdough or something that has a similar texture but not as "gross"?
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