KY bill wants drug testing for welfare recipients

[crackerjack4u2]

http://www.14wfie.com/story/13854384/ky

KY bill wants drug testing for welfare recipients
Posted by Rachel Folz - email
FRANKFORT, Ky. (AP) - A Kentucky lawmaker has proposed a bill that would require random drug testing for adults who get food stamps, Medicaid or other state assistance.
Under the bill filed by state Rep. Lonnie Napier, R-Lancaster, those who fail the drug test would lose their benefits.
They could get it back by passing a drug test at a later date determined by the state.
The proposal has the backing of House Speaker Greg Stumbo, D-Prestonsburg, but critics say it would stigmatize welfare recipients and possibly harm their innocent children.
Napier says the goal "is to get people off drugs."
He says there would be exceptions for those who have a prescription for a controlled substance.
--- Information from: Lexington Herald-Leader, http://www.kentucky.com
(Copyright 2011 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.)

[Ashelen]

Yeah here in FL our new governor wants to do it too. See here's the thing though..it's just going to cost a lot of money. they have to pay people to take the tests, pay for the supplies, pay for people to PROCESS the tests....and then what, if someone shows positive they'll lose their benefits...what about their kids? It just seems like a royal waste of money that isn't going to go too far, IMO. Like I said, I get it..I think people taking drugs shouldn't get welfare either...but it's a whole lot more complicated in the real world.

Our gov'r has already given up on his hopes of doing it I believe, because DCF gave him a quote on how much it would cost to implement and I think he was shocked. So I have the feeling it won't happen here, but who knows.

[teko]

I agree. I dont think we need to be creating new ways to spend money we dont have. What they could do is maybe do like employers do, make em sign a form for agreement to have a random test done from time to time and file the papers with the app. Maybe just the fear of being called but not knowing when might help>

[ILADVOCATE]

  I would think that rather than mandating that if people fail the test that they would lose their benefits that they be required to attend rehabilitation. Drug abuse can often be a form of self medication for a psychiatric disability and this form of follow up is needed along with treatment especially if people have children. That said I am not sure if it is pragmatic to test everyone as applying for benefits would not make a person more likely to be a drug abuser although I understand people's concerns and this should be further researched as to appropriate solutions. However it should be noted that as regards Section 8 and public housing after regulations were passed in recent years people who have a current substance abuse history or criminal background will be denied Section 8 and public housing and this has improved things because before some of those people did prey on other people in these developments and in the neighborhood in general. As regarding substance abuse when found I do support mandatory rehab. and that can often be of preventative help. Its an issue as regards legislation when testing can and cannot be required though.

[narla]

Is it also going to test for alcohol abuse?abuse of medications?what about money wasted on cigarettes will they test for that too.
Sounds like there are too many ways to waste welfare money,I know people on welfare here that spend a fortune on tattoos,where would it stop?

[adgal]

And if they fail, then they have to pay it back?  Good luck in getting it back.  One of the things we do is if we know someone is a user, rent money goes directly to the landlord.  Gift cards for supermarkets are given instead of cash.  That way we know the person at least stays housed and fed.  This is at least what our agency does.  I know that welfare also will often send rent money directly to landlords.  It helps.  I agree with Iladvocate, spend the money on rehabilitation instead. It works.  Not 100% of the time, but often enough.  Addicts are human beings...starving them and throwing them on the streets is not the answer.  

[specialmom]

Well,  honestly, I do appreciate that people are trying to stop the issue.  I know that I can't stand that my family's taxes go to support drug addicts or anyone with a substance abuse problem.  I really can't.  I know it is a disease and I am not unsympathetic, but where is their incentive to stop?  There needs to be 'something' in place that stops this cycle.  And if they test positive for drugs---------  And have children?  Their kids should be removed.  How's that for incentive to try to get clean?  I'm pretty tough on this because it is proven that when people hit bottom, they are more willing to address their problems.  While this may cost money in the beginning, perhaps it could save money in the long run as it shows that we aren't playing the game anymore.  So the culture of what happens in this country might be disturbed a bit as I for one wish it would be.  I mean, something has got to shake it up or why would anyone in that situation stop what they are doing?  And the worry for the kids should start when a parent is scared to get drug tested.  

Just my opinion as of this moment pre coffee . . . I'm usually a little less tough after caffeine has been introduced for the day.  

[specialmom]

Oh, and before I get that coffee . . . lol . . . what about some of these welfare recipients being the folks that we put to work?  Maybe instead of just picking up their checks . . . they could give back a little.

[brice1967]

I am all for it!!!  Testing should be mandatory!  I am almost positive that the system was not intended to be used and abused like it is today and this is merely one of numerous debacles running wild within government that needs a big time major overhaul.  Test every single person receiving financial assistance or living is subsidized housing....  If it's mandatory for me to be drug tested in order for me to keep my job-just so I can pay taxes so some bum can sit around and do nothing, living in housing that I am paying for.... and using drugs in that same housing.... yeah, test them all!!!

The cost?  The cost is a joke.  If you pop one idiot on a $15 drug test and therefor not send that same idiot $600 a month for housing and food.... sounds like a great savings program to me.  $600 covers 40 $15 drug tests.... and not every one is going to find drugs..... good!  But the ones that do each save potentially $600.  It's well worth it.  There is no telling how many people are taking advantage of this system that could otherwise be working.  

[brice1967]

I liked what you said you folks are doing by money going directly to the land lord and gift cards to grocery stores.  I think that's a great idea.  I think what I am having a hard time with is the fact that there are people healthy enough to have a job, just any job.... but they elect to stay on welfare because in some cases it pays better....  This makes me think of all of the homeless veterans who deserve far better, who gave so much, and then we've essentially put them on the streets.  

Veterans could use the subsidized housing.  Veterans could use some financial assistance to buy groceries.... I don't know, I mean, I know there are some veterans in the situation they are in is because of choice...(or a few bad choices)  There are people on welfare that can be working.  

Back to the testing thing.... if you get caught on a drug test, no need to pay it back.  You're done!  Find another legal way to generate an income like everyone else.  You've poached upon a system, and now you've been caught.  The system no longer works for you....

What I believe the welfare system was initially established for was when people were either injured or fell upon another hardship and couldn't be employed.  Now in America, we have people born into the welfare system who never leave it.  They don't want to work when Uncle Sam is going to send them a check for better money than an entry level position anywhere in the country.  In my old home town, (I'll leave that out)  I know of people who have never had a job, that the system just caters too.  In one case, a guy I went to high school with is a 3rd generation welfare recipient!!!!  This guy is able bodied, mentally stable (the last time I saw him) and available to work.  The problem is, he is lazy and the system treats him better than the workforce can.... pitiful... damned pitiful.

[teko]

People stay on the system because of what it offers is much more than what you would get working. Healthcare is a biggie! Discounted rent, foodstamps and what about childcare for those that work? Show me a job that offers all that when they hire someone. Yet if you are the poorer of the poor, you are elligable for it all. Why would they go to work? Hell, I wouldnt either! I also say if you got money to be doing illegal drugs, then ya dont need welfare. Sorry! I feel the same about those choosing to break up their families and get divorced not being able to fend for their kids, so we do. Yeah I got problems with it too.

[adgal]

I am pretty familiar with the welfare system here in Canada.  We were on it as a child, and of course I work with it on a daily basis as well.  I know our systems are fairly similar, although there are some minor differences.  I do agree the system needs an overhaul.  No question.  It was originally designed to help people through the rough spots.  It was absolutely never intended to be used as a lifelong means of support.  Problem is, once you are in it, it's really hard to get out of it.  And that's for the folks that want to, never mind the ones that have either lost hope, or become complacent.  

Let's just pretend you are a taxpayer who doesn't give a darn about the human aspect of it (I don't believe that is the case with anyone here, but just for arguments sake).  It actually costs society 3 times as much for someone to be homeless then to receive benefits and stay housed.  Their medical costs go up because they are living on the streets.  There would be more shelters...extremely expensive to build and maintain, let alone hire the people that work at them.  Those are just two of the additional costs.  So unless you are completely heartless and say, let em starve and freeze ( I don't think there are too many people in the world like that), it's not going to save you a penny.

I am all for mandatory testing.  I believe in forced rehabilitation.  For many, especially those with children, believe it or not, if offered, they are highly motivated to do it.  I know, many don't believe me, but give me a bit here...this is my area of expertise.  I talk to these people daily and I have seen rehab work over and over.  From rehab, a halfway house type situation where it's assisted living. Learning lifeskills and surrounded by people who are also trying to stay clean and sober.  Otherwise, people return to those they know who are often other users.  This requires a complete lifestyle change.  Next, assisted childcare and perhaps some work training.  Learning how to behave at a job interview, learning a few skills to make them employable.  Help with childcare so they can work.  Bus tickets to get them there.  Donated clean clothing to wear to an interview.  All of these things make a huge difference.

Just cutting people off is just not the answer.  You will see increased crime and other problems in society.  Look at the countries with no social assistance programs...would you want to live there?  I wouldn't.  It's chaos, crime is super high and often they are quite violent societies.  

Also, remember there are many high functioning addicts.  You see them every single day at work or other areas of your life.  Do we take their children away?  No, because they are "respectable" adults.  So the only difference is poverty.

Look at how hard it is to stop any addiction.  Smoking...I have struggled with that for years myself.  By definition that makes me an addict.  Should I have my son removed?  If my husband passed away, should I not receive help?  Smoking is one expensive habit.

And lastly, and you have to trust me on this, often the addiction comes after the fact. People lose their jobs, or find themselves alone with children.  They are very poor and feeling very hopeless.  They begin to self medicate.  I have heard that story time and time again.  It's not always the addiction that causes poverty, but poverty that causes the addiction.

We need to help people get off of the system. I agree with having them work. Problem is, on welfare, your not allowed to.  I often thought a supplmental system would work best.  Maybe all someone can find is part time work...so supplement the income so they can survive.  The way it is now, its sort of all or nothing.. Get people into job retraining programs.  Viable skills they can apply in the work place.  Help make them more employable.  Give them hope.  

Will this completely solve the problem?  Nope.  There will always be those who prefer not to work and just collect benefits, and that's a whole different situation. But most aren't that way.   We have  to be very careful not to paint everyone with the same paint brush.  The ONLY thing every single one of these folks has in common is poverty.  Othere then that, the situation is as varied as the individual.  

The system itself needs to be reworked.  Just cutting people off and taking away their kids is not the answer.  Not if your looking for a long term solution anyway.

[specialmom]

Well, I kind of disagree about the "functioning" drug addict.  We don't take their kids away because they have gone undetected.  I would not say that anyone that is a drug addict is being a responsible parent no matter what their income level.  Making 100 grand a year does not negate that you put your drug habit in front of your kids.  Being high when you are with your kids is wrong and not good parenting.  Period.  Always.  No matter how much dough you've got in the bank.  

I wonder Amanda if it would cost more up front for greater gain down the road.  I believe it would.  Really, on the end of things for someone that you want to confront their drug habit or alcohol addiction, you force them to hit a bottom.  It is the catalyst to change.  I can not see why we have a system that does not address that.  I do not think our government should be part of the cycle.  I'll be honest, I'd rather pay taxes to support the aftermath of making addicts hit bottom than for them to just live as they are.  This is not unsympathetic to their disease.  But we don't help them to just let life go on as it is.  

And I guess I see the opposite.  That it IS more of a long term solution to cut them off and take away their kids.  What do kids who grow up like that grow up to do as adults themselves in many circumstances?  I understand this is a touchy topic -------------  but cycles do start and continue in families.  Not all by any means--------- but it is not uncommon.  We have laws for two reasons.  To punish those who break them but also to be a deterrent to those who are thinking about it.  Same in this situation to me.  If you were drug tested on welfare and knew you'd lose your benefits and your kids . . . would that be incentive to stay clean?  And if you couldn't . . . should you still have your kids?

I guess I'm a bit bitter.  I do see that we have public education until the age of 18.  That we provide skills trades in highschool if someone is not college bound.  And yet . . .  many choose a different life.  Why?  Maybe because they live with that different lifestyle all around them . . . hence, the cycle continues.  Where does it end?

Now I will tell you that it is something I do have conflicted emotions about.  I understand the disease of alcholism and drug addiction.  And maybe . . . that isn't just what we are talking about here.  What about catching all the folks that partake in recreational drug use?  Got the cash for that . . . they should use it for living expenses of the family.  I get pretty angry about that.  Maybe the deterrent of knowing the repercussions would put an end to that.  I am also conflicted as my heart gets in the way.  I don't like the idea of kids suffering or anyone.  But I just can't see how this system we have now promotes people to do the right thing unless it takes a stand against those who aren't.  

[adgal]

I do 100% understand the anger and I agree with you.  We are on the same page in that it is an abuse of the system, even if not intended to be, and we agree 100% that we always need to protect the children first.  The point I was trying to make (in my drug induced hazy state..lol) was that there is a very different standard for those living in poverty.  At least that's what I see.  Our systems do nothing, or at least almost nothing, to address the big problem which is how to get people off of the system and back as functioning members of society.  We need and want them to become independant.  Nothing currently is working on that problem, at least from our gov'ts (either of them) standpoint.  It's a "throw money at them, support them, and ignore them".  Group all those living in poverty in one neighborhood (and we all see how that works...not) where we can't see them, and hope they will go away.  It just won't work.  And you are so correct in that the cycles do repeat themselves in families...people tend to follow that which they grow up with.  So the problem will just become worse.

Really, the only place we differ is on how to do that.  Your not inhumane or cold.  Your a rightfully so frustrated taxpayer.  And it is frustrating.  It's just that if there is one thing I am absolutely certain of, it's that just cutting them off will not solve the problem.  Look at countries that are truly capitilistic societies.  Most of them are borderline third world.  It just doesn't work.  This whole problem needs to be addressed for everyone's sake.  The question is of course, where to start and how to do it.  It's certainly not going to be a simple solution.

[specialmom]

Amanda, we need some genius to come up with a way to add to our system something that motivates people to improve their own life.  As it is now, there really is no incentive to get out of the system.  We've offered the course work------ probably some helpful and some ridiculous (self esteem classes, for example . . . um, can't teach that in a class in my opinion).  But what is it that gives some people the drive to improve upon their life while others are satisfied right where they are . . . even if it stinks?  I know studies show that while we are growing up, certain things are ingrained in us.  You often find adults with the exact same kind of lifestyle they had as kids------ .  So that is where we need some work to build the motivation to move beyond that.  

So, we need some big brains to come up with something to help change things up.  Our country isn't too big on change . . .  but I think it would be better for all if the current system got many much needed tweaks.   It does seem unfair to me though that people can receive the money and benefits given to them without anything asked of them in return.  I really believe that is part of the problem.  

[adgal]

I sure agree with you on the self esteem issue and the giving people something to do.  I think the two are connected myself.  I would love to see people more involved in community service.  Not picking up garbage on the side of the road...that isn't going to build self esteem.  But more things like having to volunteer X amount of hours per week at your kids school.  If you have beaten an addiction, or have a shady past but have changed it, peer to peer counselling. Things like that.  Things that make people feel worthy.  I truly believe those sorts of things really motivate people. With the folks we help, we ask them to give back.  They volunteer time at our agency.  And you can see how good they feel when they have done something worthwhile.  

I also think the biggest part of the problem is the "all or nothing" which is how the system works now.  So for someone on welfare, they get money, medical, etc. etc.  If they get a job, it's usually minimum wage, they lose their medical insurance, etc.  So why not combine the two.  Help them out by supplementing that which they make on their own. Eventually, over time, they are far more likely to become independant.  The whole welfare system needs to be addressed from top to bottom

I don't know if there is one fix for all.  People are individuals.  And one thing to keep in mind is that studies have shown that 75% of people with addictions have an underlying mental health issue.  From things like depression to bi polar to schizophrenia, and everything in between. So really, what is happening now is a bit like trying to treat a gunshot wound with a band aid.  We know it isn't working, but it's such a huge issue, it's easier to ignore it then treat it.  And it will get worse if we keep doing that.  We need to treat people as individuals, but instead we treat them like crap.  We need to focus on low income housing.  Sure, it exists, but I wouldn't want to live there.  It needs to be safe, affordable and spread out throughout cities.  Clumping it all together just makes things worse. All people see are people in the same situation...you get to the point where you cannot even imagine anything better.  

I have so many ideas.  Not saying all of them would work, but I know some would.  But of course as you say, no one wants to change.  We do a great job of sitting around and complaining, but we need to jump in and help.  Mentoring works well, being a big sister or brother is a wonderful thing.  (btw, not addressing this to anyone person, talking about society as a whole).   It can make a huge difference in breaking these cycles.  We need to show people that they can hope for more and they can do it. But it's not going to work by just telling them, or even trying to force them.  We need to show them.  It can happen...but it will take a lot of work.  

[brice1967]

I too agree with specialmom in regards to the "functioning addict" in other areas in our lives.  I know that there are addicts even in the loftiest of positions.  From middle management to CEO's, there are addicts everywhere.  Part of the problem is they do get over looked, but why?  I think they get overlooked because the position they are in and the fact that they are paying for their own.

IMO, if you're president of a fortune 500 company, and every thing about you is legit, including your cocaine habit.  I do not have a problem with you doing cocaine.... I know it's plenty illegal, but you aren't sponging off of the system.  You aren't living in subsidized housing, not receiving any government assistance.... I wish you weren't using, but your use doesn't bother me.  (The idea that potential medical costs could be a concern is a moot point.  Americans diets are more of a medical concern that some CEO's having a "coke party")

What does bother me is the person living in government subsidized housing, eating the government cheese and receiving other financial assistance, and in order to make some real money are selling drugs.... I am not saying every welfare recipient is a drug selling addict.  I am simply saying that I know for a fact that a lot of them exist.  And for every addict selling drugs in subsidized housing, there are many addicts keeping the seller in business.

I'm going to take a hard stance on this.  I am subjected to random pee tests in order to keep my employment.  I am required to do my job to the best of my abilities, and remain drug and alcohol free while doing so..... otherwise I lose my job.  It's not like I'd get many second chances.... I'd get my butt chased off the job, thats what would happen.

Drug use.... you know, jail is the price you pay for playing with that crap.  Jail, death, or any health risk or financial risk are all possible outcomes.  For the guy who is down and out and on government assistance, smoking a joint isn't a problem until you get caught.  It's illegal, youre doing it in government subsidized housing and should be considered a felony.  (If you get a DUI in a national park, it is immediately a felony.... no questions asked.)  The same guy, busting his butt working 60 hours a week just to feed the kids, trying to get out of debt, living on government assistance and living in government subsidized housing and had a beer every night..... Ive got no problem.  If he is paying cash, his cash.... it's legal, so it's ok...... weed is not legal.  There is the difference.  It needs to remain that simple.... lawyers are the ones who've botched the system and made it so convoluted.

I personally think that if you start holding people accountable, you'll get positive change.  I'd love to see all addicts get help, but they have to want it.  If they don't and we pretend it isnt happening, it continues.... held them accountable.  Boot them from the place they are living in and send them to a room 18'x18', complimented with a fridge, sink, stove, toilet and shower.  Let them know if they get popped again, done.

[brice1967]

We've got a pretty nice facility here for the homeless.  It is primarily staffed by the people living there, but there is some supervision obviously.  There are rules though..... no alcohol, no drugs.  If you're caught with either, you're gone.... end of question, no second chance.  if you play by the rules, you have a nice warm bed, hot shower, 3 squares a day, as long as you play by the rules.  Again, it is that simple....

If the government system kicks you out, your back amongst the rest of us.  Find some work and find a roof to put over your head.  I have to do it, so does everyone here.

[brice1967]

Again too, put an addict through rehab and what do you get?  A rehabilitated addict who is just as likely to be a user again as not..... there is a big gamble there with the money that we are supposed to be concerned with.

[teko]

I can see and understand with everyones point that they make here. My problem is this. We seem to live in a time when one should be ashamed for being poor, sick, and in need of help. We also seem to be living in a time when people are hard hearted towards their neighbor. We seem to live in a time when the worker is blamed for being on unemployment, etc. Our nation is turning self centered and greedy and only concerned about ones self. This includes those who abuse the help that is offered them. They take it, feel like they deserve it and conjur up ways to get even more without doing anything to earn it. Our men disrespect themselves, do not take care of their families, nor behave in the manner of which a man should. A woman is the same way. They no longer honor their man and their homes and at the first sign of not getting their ways, runn  off, taking the kids with em and most landing on welfare while the dad goes out and does his best to get lost to keep from paying child support.

Everything is out of control and no one wants to own their own part in things anymore. I am proud to live in a country that has sources of help for people who need it. Some call that socialism, I call it taking care of our own and think it is something we should be proud of. But the very source of help has tentacles that control what and how one behaves in order to get that help. The ones that truly need, still cannot get it and the ones that have learned to work the system are the ones that get the hlp. If you are married, hubby works, got three kids but still cannot pay the rent and you go for help, there is none. BUT, if mama leaves papa, or kicks em out and keeps the kids there is all kinds of help available and for as long as ya want it. And they make it very very hard to get off of aid and get back into playing a productive roll again. Meanwhile you got another generation coming up thinking it just cool to live off the government.

I can see all sides here and dont have the answers. But I do know that this is not what welfare was meant for and it has been abused and maybe, maybe it has outlived its usefulness. I mean, just maybe, when people realize there is not a free ride, they will make different decisions in life. But I would also like to see it go back to how it used to be when people genuinely gave a damn about each other. I dont see that anymore.

[adgal]

I haven't had a chance to read through all your comments Brice.  I will when I can and no doubt will have something to say....lol, don't I always?  hehe.

I did read the last post though, and have to sort of disagree.  It isn't so much that rehab doesn't work. It does.  The problem comes when people get out, and head straight back to the life they know...hang out with the same poeple, etc.  Treating addiction is treating the entire life style.  After rehab, we need to offer options and alternatives.  There needs to be ongoing out patient treatment, treating the whole person, not just drying them out.  When that happens, it truly does work.  And in all honesty, it is the best way to treat the current problem.  But on going treatment is neccessary, and a support system of people that are not users themselves.  It is the only way it works.  

[adgal]

Teko, here here!  And it is not just the US.  Same problems here in Canada.  We have become so self serving as a society.  It's sad and frightening all at the same time.  I am a big believer in progress, but what I wouldn't give to see some old fashioned values still apply. An example of what you said...we are having an extremely cold winter this year.  2 nights ago an elderly women ill with alzheimers got out of her home late at night.  Her husband didn't notice she was gone.  I guess she took off her jacket and laid on the ground.  The next day neighbors admitted hearing her screaming, but didn't know what was wrong and didnt' "want to get involved".  She froze to death.  Thats the problem...no one wants to get involved anymore.  Everything is someone else's problem, as long as it doesn't touch us. So very sad.

[brice1967]

I see the self centered thing, but I read it differently.  I do think we are probably a bit too self centered as individuals.  But on the national front, there are so many things that need to be addressed here at home and we continually obligate ourselves over seas.  

I understand the need of foreign policy.  I get it.  IMO, foreign policy isn't worth a damn if things are a mess within your own home.  We always run around the globe and tell people what they need to do, and we aren't doing it at home.  We are trying to be everything to everybody, and it has just now caught up with us and bit us in the butt!

We just have so much to address here at home, and our politicians aren't doing it. That filters down to us as individuals..... now nobody wants to do anything.

And adgal, I expected you to say something.... anything!  LOL

I've been through a bit of rehab and know full well that you have to treat the whole person.  That goes from the guy in the gutter to the guy you mentioned making $100k.  Unless everything changes, you've still got a using addict.  I also believe that there needs to be ongoing treatment, but if you (the addict) aren't playing by the rules that becomes a real problem.  We are investing in something that is going nowhere.  How many second chances do we give?  And at what cost?  We are in to alot of those extra costs right now if you look closely enough.  We are letting people out of prison, not rehabilitated, and they are back in their same haunts, conducting business as usual, often from government subsidized housing..... and it repeats, and repeats, and it doesw so because we allow it.  

Changing gears a bit, but since I mentioned it.... prisons.  I am not too for sure how much rehabilitation needs to happen in prison, and I am tired of convicted felons crying about how they are treated in prison.  You've one way or another stripped someone of their rights and are guilty of it..... your rights will be taken in return.  There are pople who do make the most of prison and learn a trade, get some kind of an education, and try to prepare themselves for life on the outside.  Those are the people who have a chance.  The ones sitting and waiting for their release and not doing anything to better their situation are sometimes looking for their trip back to prison.

I don't have the answers to the prison dilema, but it does need an overhaul and I think it is far too soft in a lot of cases.

[Ashelen]

I just don't believe it IS that simple. You take an addict's children away, which I don't necessarily agree with (depends on the situation) and what happens...to get them back, you force the addict to stop using, go through rehab, etc...but we all have known addicts (most of us have, at least) and should realize that you cannot FORCE an addict into recovery. You can stop their using for awhile, force them to complete the rehab, but until they are ready to quit they're going to slide easily back into the bad parts of their past.

It's all well and good to sit back from a position of stability and relative comfort and say "take their kids to punish them, cut off their benefits"...but honestly, people and therefore the situation is far more complex and difficult to solve.

I do NOT have the answers...but I don't believe in tearing families apart and punishing children for their parents mistakes. I've known people who were addicts and held their families together, worked jobs, cared for their children, and used drugs as a way to cope. Not saying it was right, but you never would've known had it not been for their candid honesty. Now....to tear their children away from them, and stick them into the unstable adoption/foster system? I just can't see how that would be better.

My two cents.

[Ashelen]

Addendum: I do however agree with whoever it was that suggested benefit money should be paid directly to the necessary bills...,i.e. a person on welfare to help with rent should have the benefit sent directly to their landlord, etc. Perhaps if people on welfare were given money that was paid directly to their landlord, money paid directly to utilities, exactly enough money on foodstamps to provide food for their family, and instead of money for "gas and other items" a bus card...perhaps that would cut down on abuse of the system.