Another question

This is in regards to oral transmission risk, which I know has been asked a million times, but it seems like the issue of ejaculation in the mouth is never addressed along with it. What if a female or a gay male was performing oral on an HIV-positive man and took ejaculate in the mouth? Would this not be a significant HIV risk? What if they swallow? That's just something that never seems to be addressed. I haven't personally had a risk like this(I only perform on women) but was just wondering what the risk is to people who have. Anyone know? Thanks.

[DrStupid]

There are most definitely people that got infected giving head.
But it happens rarely, so the risk is considered "low".
HIV transmission studies are tough to do, that's why "transmission science" is a bit sketchy.

[mike_no]

???

There are only two documented cases of acquiring HIV by oral sex, the information is not concrete and is very much in the diputes since it is believed that a) The info was falsified or b) Acquired the virus by some other means

According to the recent Spanish studies and the few other ones consumption of loads of C.U.M didn't lead to HIV infection.

Out of Millions of HIV infected cases only two infected from oral sex is some thing very difficult to believe.

Practically, Oral sex = NO RISK !

[DrStupid]

It is difficult to document sexual transmission of HIV and it almost never happens.
Probably 99% of HIV-infected people don't know how they got infected (even if they think they know)
Basically, unless you have a virgin that is raped by a poz guy, documenting transmission is almost impossible.
That said, I've heard maybe 30 people claim that they got poz by giving head.
To put it in perspective, I've seen like 2 people infected by a single insertive vaginal sex act.  

[mike_no]

That's what YOU have seen !

I'm talking about factual information, which is documented.

Practically, Oral sex is NO RISK

[DrStupid]

How do you "document" something like that???  Think about it.  And where do you see "documented cases" anyway???

"Oral sex=no risk":

Well, many people think that and blow anything they find.
Some of them eventually test poz and come asking "how could this happen, I always used protection for anal".  
Besides, many gay men just don't have any anal sex at all, just oral.
Sometimes they test poz, too.

Dr.HHH, who is a real cowboy when it comes to HIV, would never say that by the way.

Because the risk is low, but it's real.

[mike_no]

Jeff,

I've been watching you around here atleast from the last 2 months and you have asked this question probably some hundred times and you have always got one response from every body and the best here like Teak, Peek, Monkey, Xhost....etc, all said 'no risk', what makes you not believing it ?

Practically,oral sex is not the right mechanism for HIV infection.

Mate, it's time to move on, deal with your mind, HIV aint no your problem.

See a shrink.

Mike

[mike_no]

Where in the earth are you getting that info from ?

Creating a user name 'Drstupid' doesn't mean that you are a doctor and the real doctor is a street side urchin..huh ?

Even if you profess to be a doctor, I would not believe it since I'd doubt you might have bribed to get that medical licence or you're simply a vet who's trying to bring about a revolution, you're just another random internet poster.

Get your info right, you need to study the CDC website before you comment here.

And yeah, what about the studies they conducted recently ?

I have nothing personal with you but I don't like the fact that you are giving out incorrect information.

[DrStupid]

"Well-documented cases of HIV transmission through oral exposure to semen or cervicovaginal secretions have been documented so that fellatio and cunnilingus cannot be considered to be safe practices."

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/416415_7

Now I am not going to do any more legwork tracking down these cases.  
If you want the juicy details, you will have to do so yourself.

[DrStupid]

OK, so I went to the CDC website.

"HIV is primarily found in the blood, semen, or vaginal fluid of an infected person. HIV is transmitted in 3 main ways:
Having sex (anal, vaginal, or oral) with someone infected with HIV
Sharing needles and syringes with someone infected with HIV
Being exposed (fetus or infant) to HIV before or during birth or through breast feeding"

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/basic/index.htm#transmission


I will not post another comment to you, unless I see some form of an apology

[DrStupid]

"Over 90% of HIV infected people do not know exactly when they were infected. It is rare for HIV to appear in someone who, like you, has only one potential partner or event that could have been the source; the large majority have multiple partners and multiple events that could be responsible. And there can be powerful incentives for people to just give false information. For example, AIDS in a 45 year old never-married male who has had syphilis twice (rare in straight men, common in gay men), but who denies sex with men, is classified as a heterosexually acquired case as long as that's what the patient says.

For these reasons, personal testimony ("I'm just SURE I caught HIV when I licked that hooker's ****") almost never counts as "documented", even on apparently reliable websites. Statistics from even the most authoritative sources, like CDC, substantially inflate the number of cases attributed to heterosexual acquisition, fellatio, cunnilingus, and so on.

So I stand by my repeated statements that I remain unaware of documented cases of HIV transmission by cunnlingus, in either direction. I am skeptical of any cases acquired by the insertive partner in fellatio (there are a few possibly well-documented cases, so few to be almost disregarded). HIV clearly can be acquired by the receptive partner in fellatio, but these are rare."

This is from Dr. H.
Find it funny how we are saying almost identical things?
Well, that's because we know what we're talking about.
And you don't!
So stay in school

[mike_no]

Apology ?

I care  flying rat's ass what you say here, secondly, you need to study the information carefully, see whats written there study the entire website and not what you want only, the reason they've mentioned about the oral being a risk because of those two documented cases only and not 'lots of HIV infected individuals by oral' !

Oral sex is just no risk, you can't create your own theories, keep that to your self.

[Teak]

You need to read the studies and a lot more research articles before you give out information that you know nothing about. Mike is correct in the answers he has given. Now if you want to come up with percentages post the URL to back them up.

[mike_no]

http://www.aidsmap.com/en/news/8C39A60C-FEA6-44A5-8CDA-67D52AB7C559.asp

http://gateway.nlm.nih.gov/MeetingAbstracts/102251988.html

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn1156

Here are few collateral,you should take your time to read this "Doctor"

[jeffhaley]

Actually "mate," I have never asked this question once in the entire time I have been on this board. And I made it perfectly clear in my question that I wasn't worried about my own personal exposure, rather I was just curious about this particular mode of transmission. So, thank you for trying to be the good samaritan and telling me to move on, but please don't put words in my mouth that were never said by me.

[mike_no]

Sorry about that, I thought this is the question that you've always asked.

Don't you think, that was a bit rude ?

any ways doesn't matter I know how most of them in this website are, nevermind !

[DrStupid]

No, we will not keep it going later.
I have no interest in a dialogue with inadequate and stubborn people.
I will copy/paste once more from Dr.H's post, because you obviously couldn't read it before.


"HIV clearly can be acquired by the receptive partner in fellatio, but these are rare."


So if you still have questions or concerns on the subject, just bring it up with him, I'm done.

[mike_no]

In that case, test after every kissing exposure, every oral exposure and most importantly test out till the 6 th month....that's what the guidelines says , isn't it ?

Stupid, as you're really one any ways there's a difference between theoretical risk and practical risk, please spent some time reading the links that I've posted they are recent studies and moreover use your own brain rather than just copy pasting stuffs.

You don't even know what are you talking about, you need to educate yourself about it and I completely understand it's a gradual process so start with * Condom protected sex is no risk*

[DrStupid]

Mike, I read your links and I think you are joking.
Each one of them clearly states EXACTLY what I said:
Low, but real risk for giving oral sex.
Did you actually read them yourself, or just looked at the title?
You can't possibly be that stupid, and I know stupid, it's my name!

[jeffhaley]

I'm not a rude person, mike. But when you portray me as someone who has asked the same question "hundreds of times" and as someone who just needs to "see a shrink" then I've got to say something about it, just as I'm sure you would if someone made the same false remarks about you.

[mike_no]

I did apologize for that !!!

I understand what you're trying to tell me

[mike_no]

LOL...error in copy pasting, I posted to myself :D, I need to hit the bed, I'm damn sleepy, It's 7.30 am here, the beds and the angels calling me.

Stupid, we'd keep those going later....

[jeffhaley]

For general purposes, you shouldn't follow up an apology to someone by inferring to that person that they are rude just like everyone else. Just some food for thought.

That being said, I accept your apology.

[mike_no]

Yeah, now I understand being stupid is your birth right,you can't even read nor do you understand the only thing you know is to copy-paste, I wish I was good at it too :(

Use your brain Stupid, if you did not understand this how would you understand the Shrek's story ?

There is a difference between theoretic and practical risk

..and by the way,you need to read every thing carefully there, alright ?

I'll catch you later

[mike_no]

I hear ya !

[DrStupid]

You've got to be kidding me, man.
I dare you (or Mike) challenge Dr.H the way you challenged me.
You know what?
Teak and Mike are absolutely right.
And all the doctors and the entire CDC is wrong.
We are just making stuff up, because we don't browse the internet as much as you two.
Let's leave it at that, no more argument from my end.

[highlyworried]

I dunno.. I'm not trying to pick sides, but although its nice to think that HIV and oral sex isn't really that possible, I've ALWAYS had the question about the cases and how exactly do people know when or how they got infected??? Its sooo confusing and Dr Stupid does have a point cuz people can lie in these studies and its really hard to track down when and where a person contracted HIV since most people engage in numerous sexual acts.. Just think about it. Its definately been something I wanted to ask, but I thought it was a dumb question, but its definately nice to see people talking about that. My whole thing is, at the end of the day, how do you know EXACTLY when and how an HIV+ person contracted it. What got me stumped was when Dr. Stupid said that people will blow anything and use condoms for anal/vaginal sex, but later wonder how they ended up w/ HIV... I guess just think about it and let me know what you guys think, cuz its confusing and I dunno, maybe condoms SHOULD be used for oral even.. That's certainly my whole thing now

[DrStupid]

Almost everything in life has some risks associated with it, so you have to make a choice for yourself what risks you want to take.
I would not say that one needs to use condoms for giving head, the risk there is low.
But there are things you can do to reduce that risk even further: don't swallow, don't let it sit in your mouth, take care of your oral hygiene etc.

[DrStupid]

I don't really understand, why is this such a big issue.
I can understand Teak's point of view, because it's difficult for him to be objective, he has an agenda, and that's understandable.
But the rest of you, what is the question???
Semen is infectious, everyone knows that?
One can get infected through the oral cavity, everyone know that?
Babies get infected breastfeeding (documented, ok?)
Just put two and two together.
There is a risk.
People saying otherwise are lying or misinformed.
Trust the respected professionals like Dr.H more than you do the anonymous internet stupids and you'll be fine.

[mike_no]

You just can't use you brain to understand that !

Practically it is not possible,one needs to have a real ****** up oral condition for contracting HIV from oral sex.

Huge amount of blood has to be present for any risk

Severe wounds / poor gum conditions should be present

I really doubt some one with so screwed up oral condition or seeing / bleeding substantial amount of blood would perform /receive oral sex.

..and the reason no doctor would say it's "no risk" because theoretically it's possible however practically it's just not possible and moreover receiving oral and contracting HIV is just not possible practically.

People should use their own head rather than believing random internet posters proffesing to be a doctor who doesn't even understand the difference between theory and practicality....sux !

[DrStupid]

Well that is because only rarely one can without a doubt attribute HIV transmission to fellatio.  You can't stick a microscope into someone's throat and observe virus establishing an infection.  So all these studies, without exception, are based on interviewing people.  And people's interviews have to be taken with a grain of salt.  This is not really a precise science there.

Clearly, studies indicate that other sexual activities are much riskier than oral sex.  But no real HIV specialist out there - not Dr.H, not Dr.Gallant, not Dr.Bob - will ever tell you "oral sex=no risk", because there is evidence to the contrary.  Be aware of this, take proper precautions if you are going to blow random people, and you'll stay neg forever.

[highlyworried]

yea, you're right. when I performed oral, it was for 5 minutes and no ejac at all in my mouth.. I made sure I stopped at 5 minutes or less. I saw preejac and didn't wanna do it anymore. I had no cuts or anything in my mouth. I made sure of it beforehand. I didn't brush my teeth for like 16 hours leading up to it.. I took every precaution I could take, in other words. But what scares me is when the experts say that HIV can enter into your oral mucosa lining. So, its all pretty vague. Also when receiving oral, I heard that the person receiving the oral can get HIV if the infected person's blood enters through their urethra lining.. Most people think you have to have a cut or wound on your penis to get it, but yea. All of this is stressful... I was wondering though.. Why do people still say its "zero risk or close to it"...no practical risk (this is what the doc HH says), yet nobody is sure about when and how you can get HIV?? For instance, many people practice many forms of sex, but hardly no one knows how they got HIV.. So, isn't the answer for oral sex and uncertain answer? For all we know, ALOT of people could have gotten HIV through oral, but they think its from somewhere else.. I hope this makes sense. I hope I'm not being a pest, but I'm just unsure w/ this stuff. I'd really appreciate if you can tell me how you feel about this!

[highlyworried]

Thanks Mike.. I've heard those criteria you have listed and I agreed w/ that until I started getting freaked out again. I really appreciate ya, Thanks man