No penetration but some low risk behavior, wondering if tests are conclusive

[worrieddad0206]

Hello All,

Thanks so much in advance. I don't intend on being a nuisance but I'm riddled with anxiety. I have a family and...you know the drill.

I had a 10 minute moment with a woman which obviously I regret. Anyway, there was no s e x, but there was a second of frottage though I'm not even sure how close I was. Another area of concern was that I f i n g e r e d her for awhile and then masturbated myself afterwards for a few minutes. I did it pretty quickly afterwards and am concerned about urethra penetration.

Last order of business, I had a rna/pcr test at 26 days (i know thats late it was supposed to be at 19 days but they ordered the wrong test) and that was undetectable. However, at 30 days I noticed a palpable but not definitely swollen posterior cervical lymph node on the right side. It was confirmed by a dr. that that was the node but the dr. didnt think it was swollen, although he admitted it's rare to feel that. Anyway, in reading it looks like these nodes are the most common wiht HIV and are uncommon with other conditions, so it freaked me out more.

I think got a ab/ag test by my primary care physician at 36 days, though they didn't think it was necessary. I assume this is '4th generation' or 'DUO', but all the Dr. said was that antibodies and antigens were both normal in the voicemail and that I should finally relax.

Sorry for the long question. i'm a total wreck. I knwo my situation was low risk but the posterior cervical node is what is keeping me up at night and taking away any chance of appetite. I've lost close to 15 pounds. Are either or both of these tests conclusive?

Thank you so much.

[Sara_MHModerator]

First of all, we can't diagnose you with a phobia here but do note that you are anxious and this is something you should speak to your doctor about.  Your question has been fully answered that you did not have any risk at all.  This will not change.  We are now closing this discussion.

***  Thread Closed ***

[worrieddad0206]

Hi again everyone. I left one thing out that I realized last night in bed leading to another night of no sleep.

While I was masturbating myself, the woman lightly fingers my butt for close to 2 minutes. She had long nails and my fear is that if she fingered herself a little prior and had vaginal fluid, there's a decent possibility she could have cut me. Now I can't remember for sure but I may have had a little red on toilet paper the next morning. That tends to happen to me every now and again naturally so if it did it wouldn't have thrown me off much. If vaginal fluid was on her fingers and she cut me with her nails, could that be why I have these GD lymph nodes? I'm going to an infection disease specialist on Tuesday but just trying to get opinions.

Sorry for opening this thread back up but thank you.

[AnxiousNoMore]

Reread my first advice because your questions are all variations of your first one.
Consider therapy for your HIV phobia since all people have cuts and accidentally brush against someone once in a while yet none get HIV.

[worrieddad0206]

I understand what you're saying but those people don't have vaginal fluid on their fingers. I'm asking specifically if she used her fluid as lube and then cut me. I got an ultrasound and have 3 posterior cervical lymph nodes, all under 1cm, 2 on the right and one on the left. I'm asking genuinely...if she had her fluid on her nail and cut inside my *** could that fluid infect me through the cut. Please

[Robpoole]

28 days is conclusive. But as others said,no risk.

[worrieddad0206]

Thank you. Ask I asked the others, not as a slight to you or anyone else, but is there anything official confirming this window?

[AnxiousNoMore]

worrieddad0206 You have ignored my advice and instead focused on apologies for bothering me, although that was not the case or necessary. Let's just stick to the facts and not worry about off-topic guessing my feelings.

We rely on the opinion of expert doctors and your issue is straightforward. All you need to do is reread the advice about the 40 (and accept the science since you have a pre-med background). Afterwards, hopefully you are able to accept your doctor's advice which matches our doctors.

[worrieddad0206]

Thanks Anxious. Appreciate it. I'm new here so are there expert doctors on the site? Or are you going off expert doctors you know or work with?

[AnxiousNoMore]

They left here years ago but this is a moderated board. Besides there is no controversy over your risk - if it was as infectious as you fear then everyone in America would have it because humans are constantly mixing body fluids (blood from cuts is no risk) from accidental contact, so your purposeful contact does not have any special risk. Most NFL games involve spilled blood at high speed and impact, and no one gets HIV.

[CurfewX]

Here is a quote from one of our moderators - and no, there are no longer experts on this site, but there used to be, and they are still present around the internet:

"MedHelp relies on the opinions and direct advice from experts in the field of HIV.  While the CDC can be helpful, they are a very conservative organization.  Additionally, they work on publications for ALL diseases, not just HIV, and are not always able to keep up with the technology related to a specific disease or testing procedures.  Advice from the major body of HIV experts in the field state that the 4th generation test is 99.89% reliable at 28 days and beyond."

If you google that number in conjunction with HIV 4th generation test, you can find other experts saying the same.  

[worrieddad0206]

Thanks Curfew. I've seen a lot of information and even googling that I still see a fear of a second window after 28 days. Essentially the fear is that antigen's dissipate before antibodies appear. Is what I'm reading false? If antigens typically go away by the 28th day and my test was done on the 36th day, is it sensitive enough to pickup antibodies? I'm asking more questions than I intended, thank you.

[CurfewX]

The antigens START to drop off at that point, and the antibodies pick up.  The test is highly sensitive, and it is extraordinarily unlikely that it would miss an HIV infection at the 36 day mark.

In any event, you didn't have a risk for HIV, so that's all I have to say regarding testing for a disease you weren't exposed to.

[worrieddad0206]

Gotcha. Understood and thank yuo. Just general curiosity now...are they related? Do the antigens drop off BECAUSE the antibodies pickup? That would sound reasonable even though I have no knowledge and would make more sense as to why people are so confident about the shorter window period.

[worrieddad0206]

Well I'd appreciate an answer here as that would help my understanding of the confidence in this window, and would help put to bed the idea of a second window. But either way thank you all very much and have a nice evening.

[Kirstie_MHModerator]

Everyone who answers questions here is a volunteer.  There isn't any merit in repeatedly requesting a response, as members answer when they are available and able.

[CurfewX]

I would solidly recommend counseling if you can't let this go.  You had zero risk for HIV.  There's no point in delving into immunology, and the development of antigens vis-a-vis antibodies.  You didn't have a risk so none of this is relevant - at all - to your situation.

[worrieddad0206]

Thank you

[CurfewX]

You didn't have low-risk behaviors - you had NO RISK behaviors.  No penetration = no risk.  For HIV transmission to occur sexually, an unprotected penis must be INSIDE a vagina or anus.

Frottage is not a risk, even if it was very close.  Fingering and then masturbating is also not a risk.

In any case, a DUO test (Ab/Ag) is considered conclusive any time 28 days post-exposure and beyond.

[worrieddad0206]

Thanks very much. I was more concerned with the fingering/masturbating with same hand than the minimal frottage, but i appreciate both responses. I've read some conflicting info on the ab/ag window period and some 'second window' period which i'm willing to believe is false. Does the CDC or any governing source agree that 28 days for duo is conclusive or are they staying conservative at 6 weeks or 3 months? That will be my last question...thanks a lot to both of you.

[AnxiousNoMore]

You don't have any medical training so your self diagnosed lymph issue likely does not exist. Your doc confirmed it was not a problem so it is time to move on from trying to connect that with HIV.
HIV is instantly inactivated in air so is effectively dead and can't infect. There is zero chance of HIV from touching / frottage/masturbation so your doctors were right to tell you it was unnecessary to test. You might as well have tested to see if she made you male-pregnant.
No one in 40 years of HIV history got HIV from frottage and no one will in the next 40 years of your life.
Consider therapy for your HIV phobia because you are suffering in fear of a disease you can't have.

[worrieddad0206]

Thank you for your response. You're right, I don't have any medical training besides being pre-med for 2 years before going business, haha. BUT, like I said, I felt the node and through some research got nervous when it looked like it could be posterior cervical and that was confirmed. And I didn't make up that it was palpable, the Dr. confirmed that. The Dr. also said it is unusual for this chain to be palpable, although it was definitely less than 1cm.

Anxious, I understand your frustration with me (and probably countless others) for losing our minds and not thinking as rationally as you'd like. I don't mean to be taking up too much time. I am, though, confused as to why this node would be felt when it's unusual, and it's pretty bad timing considering I had my first incident with anyone outside my wife since before we met. I'm sure the guilt is talking too, I get the psychology behind that.

Apologies if it bothers you to answer, as I know you'll be tempted to say 'you have no risk so test doesn't matter', but do you have any medical information or links confirming either or both of my tests can be conclusive at this point?

Anyone else can chime in as well if Anxious does not want to deal with the paranoia. Just please know that I really appreciate it.