VERY Confused ???

Question

Risk:  me 43 straight male had 5 female sex partners all one time things. No pros. Always condom for vaginal sex never condom for oral sex preformed on me. tested HIV neg 2 years ago.  Ok  now here is where I am confused. I read the Docs forum and people are telling him they had condom protected vaginal sex and unprotected oral. and the doc is telling them that even though the risk is almost zero there is still a risk.  Now I thought by reading this board. that If I used a condom for all vaginal sex and it did not fail there is NO WAY I would become infected ???? I realize that by using a condom there is a risk because the condom can rip. but I thought once the condom was used and it did not break the one and only risk that you could have would be gone and you would be 100% safe.  but the donctor is placing it as a very very very low risk  but still a risk ........  can you guys explain for me...  thanks in advance

Docreader · Answer

Over the years Living in NYC  I have seen and heard of almost anything you can imagine.  I remeber when you could go to a club like Plato's and the biggest risk you might have was getting a case of VD.  But that has all changed. And I fear that in the future with all the mutations of different stuff it might only get far worse.  I feel sorry for the kids of today who will never get to experience the fun of just hooking up and not worrying about catching anything.  But as far as oral. I currently have 2 male friends from diffrent parts of the country who I have known for 30 some  years.  And beleive it or not both of them have never had any type of insertive or receptive anal or vaginal sex. I guess the are 40 year old virgins.  But far from it. Both are oral crazed guys. They both love to go to glory holes and have hours of oral with total stangers. I try to knock some sence into them but they have continued. and I am sure will never stop. Beleive it or not with the 1000's of partners they are not infected nor do they worry. And they do get tested regularly. They are the givers of oral sex but are both healthy and that is their lifestyle.  And if these two guys dont get it after the things I have heard them do..   there is no way you can catch HIV via oral sex.    Cheers and stay healthy

nursegirl6572 · Answer

"And with the millions of oral sex acts that happen every day we would have 1/2 counrty infected"

BINGO!!!!!!!

This is what I always try to stress when someone is freaking over an oral encounter!!!

If it were TRULY a risk, there would be newly reported cases popping up everywhere.

09anonymous · Answer

Wow,  a Nurse, Lawyer.  I'm certain we have shredded the internet to pieces......LOL  
God bless!!!

Docreader · Answer

I agree with you 100% Very well written.  I do have to thank the doctors and the many regular members of these forums for thier time and effort.  I can frankly state to you that if I were a Doctor I dont know I would be able to give advise on this forum knowing full well the ***** out there with the malpractice ideas. But Dr Hook and HHH go above and beyond the call of duty as far as that goes. I am sure this board does not make them wealthy but they take the time to try to explain and comfort those of us who are with anxiety driven issues.  I have read both doctors say that in the 25+ years they have never seen a hetero transmision from a one time occurance. And I truly beleive them. Has it happen of Course it has, but not with the frequency that the media and politacly driven people have stated. I beleive from reading that it is rare, so rare that these two doctors and my local (NY/NJ) area clinic that has treated 1000's if not 10's of thousands or people have never seen one case of female to male HIV.  But I am sure that there are doctors in the US that have seen it more than once.  Oral sex is a great issue, I beleive that it cant be transmitted via oral and the studies have proven that. And with the millions of oral sex acts that happen every day we would have 1/2 counrty infected it it could happen this way.  Has it happend?  who knows, But  could a plane land in the hudson river  and everyone survive YES.  And as you said with people not honestly reporting their risks how can that or any risk be accuratly evaluated. And then you have some doctors who are just nuts take Paldin, SF.  if you were to go by her report I know it was years ago.  No male would have to wear a condom.  But Thank you and I do understand that you teak and lizzy do not have to be conserative and can freely tell the facts as you see them.  ANd the Doctors really have to be carefull. I hate lawyers and I am one.    God Bless.

nursegirl6572 · Answer

Doctors, and the medical community as a whole have a responsibility...that is why you see the conservative figures.  Just like you said above......a doctor will never be comfortable saying "never" (or 'always") when it comes to medicine.  And, that goes for medicine, PERIOD, not simply HIV.

There are tooo many factors that play into these things.  Especially with something like HIV, and you nailed it when you spoke about people not being forthcoming with their TRUE risks.  That is IT right there.  That is one of the main reason it has been very difficult to associate solid assessments with certain behaviors.....we are dealing with mostly "subjective" data.  In other words.....data collected from what people have shared about their risks and history.  It is much easier to assess something that is based on "objective" data...something that can be SEEN and evaluated, studied.

I will personally say ( and I AM a medical professional) that it is impossible to become infected after having protected sex (with no condom failure).  The idea that the virus sneaks thru tiny holes in condoms is an urban myth.  Therefore, if a condom has remained intact, and covered the head of the penis...there is no risk.  The ONLY exception to this is lambskin condoms...they are not optimal for condom selection.  A lambskin condom is still better than NO condom, however.

I can appreciate why the good docs present their assessments the way they do.  The most valuable info I have read from them, IMO...is when they share what they have come accross in mutliple DECADES (combined) of dealing with HIV/AIDS.  The trends they have reported really speak volumes.  This takes the subjective data aspect out of the equation and allows the reader to take the info at FACE value.

For instance, the fact that neither of the doctors have seen a patient's HIV status change from NEG to POS after 6 weeks tells me a lot as a casual reader.  The window period is there for a reason...but among thousands of patients treated by these physicians...the patients who have ended up aquiring the disease have done so rapidly.  Will the docs tell you that NO ONE will test positive after 6 weeks?  Of COURSE not!  HOWEVER, what that would tell ME if I were coming here with a risk is that a neg result at 6 weeks is pretty darn reassuring.  ALL of those people and it took no longer than 6 weeks to seroconvert...THERE is objective data to look at.  However...the docs also realize that the window period is in place to cover all scenarios and for public health safety...so they are never going to say that seroconversion AFTER the 6 weeks mark is impossible...that would be irresponsible.

Hope all of that made sense.  Buggin and docreader..you both made excellent posts about this topic.  The subject of the inconsistencies of the oral sex risks come up here CONSTANTLY, and this is a great time to address it....

Forum "regulars" like myself, Teak, lizzie lou, etc...do not HAVE to be conservative in our assessments...we spell it out according to our experiences and research on the matter.  

And, when someone PERCEIVES that they've had a risk (even if they did not).....there really is very little convincing them that what we say has some merit until they get their own neg result (and sadly, THAT isn't even enough in many cases).

Docreader · Answer

SOrry my last comment was supposed to read 
 I wish someday there will be no need for this board because HIV will be curable. 
Thanks for reading and your opinions are appreciated ......

Docreader · Answer

Thanks man for the responce. And I do agree with you.  And I do realize that Dr. Hook is much more conserative than Dr HHH. Just by reading the posts you can tell that. But to me they are both experts. And they are entitled to their diffrence in opinions. And to be honest if I were a doc on a forum like this I would find it hard to say to anyone "there is no risk", because of the liability and I dont think HIV is a science that is totaly understood.  I have known many friends who have HIV and or Aids. Both female and male.  Several had originaly reported there risks where hetero type stuff, but as the years passed other truths came about.  My 2 Female cousins did actually get it from there husbands who where IV drug users. But the all males had lied about there risk.  Later to find out they had much more higher risks than male female sex.  So I know its hard for experts to narrow down a science when they dont always have the facts specialy from people who have been infected and cant not because of status or family tell the real truth.   And I do not doubt that men have contracted HIV from females. But I always felt safe in knowing that if I used a condom and it did not fail i was 100% safe and absolutly no risk. But to qoute do Hook 
 "2.  For condom protected vaginal sex your risk of getting HIV, IF your partner was infected is less than 1 in 100,000 and probably in the range of 1 in 1 million." 
  But that is not saying there is no risk..    just wanted to give my opinion  Sorry for being long winded.   I wish someday there will be no need for this board because HIV is curable.

09anonymous · Answer

I think the "very low risk" response from the Dr. has nothing to do with the protected sex issue. That response has to do with the unprotected "oral sex" part of the question. Some believe that oral sex is no risk and others believe that it is "very very low" risk. You need to wiegh out your exposer and decide for yourself who you want to believe. But let's think about this, oral sex generally exposes you to saliva and saliva generally has no infectous qualities. Some studies have found that a protein in saliva inactivates HIV. Also, there are other factors that may contribute to the noninfectious qualities of saliva. This is why kissing and receiving oral sex is believed to be a non-infectious by some, outside of some crazy circumstances. Now, I'm certainly NOT a Dr. or an Expert on this stuff, but I personally believe.......that you would be hit by a meteor on your birthday before being infected by HIV from a **. One more thing to throw out there, in the history of HIV, there has never been a documented case from a man being infected from receiving a **, NEVER-EVER. Your not going to make history by being the first. You can research that easily on the net for yourself if you choose to drive yourself crazy like I did. I think your safe!!!

Teak · Answer

Have no idea why he made that comment, when it is well known that a condom used correctly and consistently will prevent the transmission of HIV.

Docreader · Answer

Anyone have any opinions ?????

Docreader · Answer

Thats what I was thinking after reading the hundreds of post here. But  why does Dr. Hook say there is a risk? And more importantly why is there a risk after you have sex and the condom does not break ?  I would think, that if I have sex with a female and I use a condom and it dies not break or fall off, I would be safe and should not worry about that exposure because there should not have been an exposure.  But in some threads the doctor tells the people that there is very little risk  but not NO RISK ?  I am totaly confused ????