Blood from a cats claw

[rek]

Basically what I want to know is if the cat were to get a pint of infected blood on his claw and then a day later scratched someone else if it would transfer? I would figure after a full day of the cat tearing across the house it would rub off, plus with him cleaning and grooming himself you wouldn't have anything to worry about. I also don't think blood cells could live just sitting on his claws for a day either.

I ask this because recently my nephew has been worrying that something like that could happen. Yesterday the kitten picked me (pretty sure it didn't draw blood or anything just a little poke) and then a full day later it tore up my nephews hand when he was playing with him--so he's sort of anxious to know if it's even possible for hep c to transfer that way. I've truthfully never heard of anything like that happening but it's something I wouldn't mind knowing myself.

Thanks.

[wyntre9]

A PINT of blood?

Anyway;  I don't think your nephew has anything to worry about.  

Probably the only way that scenario could possibly happen would be if the cat scratched someone who was infected, and that person bled onto the claw, and the cat immediately scratched someone else, drew blood and opened a wound on the second person's skin.

But it would have to occur immediately, I would think.  Hep-C is a human transmitted blood to blood virus and the addition of a cat in the route provides another degree of separation, so to speak.

The most common ways of getting the virus are shared IV needles and blood transfusions.  There are a number of other documented transmission sources, such as tattoos, body piercings, manicures, air-guns.

wyntre

[R Glass]

What are you doing with a pint of blood in your house or what is a cat doing in a area that contains pints of blood?

[Hepatitis Researcher]

Your nephew unforotunately has a good point and a realistic worry. There is no fundamental difference between the instruments of manicures, tatoos,etc and the claw of a cat. A tiny amount of blood stays on the claw, and will stay infectious for a while, just as long as it would stay infectious on a needle. If a person has 20000000 iU of HCV in his blood, then 1 microliter, that is a good estimate of the amount that could stay on the claw, still contains about  30000 = thirtythousand virons.

I just spoke with an infectious disease specialist at UCLA, that has researched survivial times of viruses at surfaces. It must be assumed, that infectioness of the dried blood virus ( HIV, HBV, HCV) continues up to two weeks.

[wyntre9]

I stand corrected, but that is really scary.

Would the same be true of birds?

If one of my parrots scratched my arm and then landed on someone else and scratched them, could she transmit the virus?

And what if I'm UND?  

Now I'm worried.

wyntre

[jmjm530]

I think you have to make a distintion between what is possible in theory and how you are going to live your life. Following the cat's scratch theory through to it's logical conclusion, one would never venture into a pet owner's home (unless padded) for fear of picking up HCV, HIV, whatever. And then what about going outside with the risk of mosquitoes? Or playing ball where the possiblity always exists of two simultaneous cuts. In the cat example, while HR shows how it's theoretically possible, BOTH parties would have to have a break in the skin, and then the cat would have to claw the second party within the time period mentioned, assuming the dried blood did not physically rub off which knowing cats, is likely. But even IF all the aforementined happend, keep in mind that needle stick injuries in hospitals (where blood is fresh) only result in what I remember to be 1-3% exposure risk. Guess what I'm saying is that I don't think you have to lock up Polly yet, but yes, I suppose it prudent if she got blood on her claws -- from anyone -- probably best to wipe the claws off with a disinfectant and/or keep her in a cage for that period.

-- Jim

[FlGuy]

If infected by the parrott, more likely with chirpees

[wyntre9]

That's what I was trying to convey (what you said) althought I didn't have any of those pesky facts to back me up!  :)

But, what about the UND question.  (I know it's probably perfectly clear to any sane person).

Can you transmit the virus when you're UND?  Or SVR?  Or is it only when the virus is active in your blood?

Wyntre

BTW - Venus says don't you dare call her Polly!

[billy_joe]

I asked my doctor the same thing about the cats having blood on there calws and passing hep c to my son. He said the virus can stay alive for up to 3 days on surfaces. And  to have my son tested again if I was really worried. I have a Iguana Who scratches me alot. I don't let my son Touch him.

[jmjm530]

My doctor would probably say no, because he doesn't feel there is any viable virus after SVR. I'm sure others will have different opinions, as this issue has been raised in some of the occult/persistent papers. I say "raised" but no conclusions. And as far as I know, no direct studies on the matter.

But if you did want to assume -- for discussions sake -- that the possiblity of SVR transmission exists -- it would no doubt be far less than with someone who is detectible since the amount of virus would be so little (assuming it exitsts).

-- Jim

[jmjm530]

My apologies to VENUS :)

[wyntre9]

Flguy,

OK.  I don't get it.  (as usual)

Jim,

Good thing you retracted that unforgivable insult.  Calling a parrot "Polly" could get you kicked off avian airways.  

Fortunately for you, Venus isn't the litigious sort.  She's accepted your apologies and waived her right to seek compensation, financial or otherwise.

wyn

ps - ok.  Not gonna worry about that UND/SVR transmission thing, otherwise, you're right, I could spin this out to infinity.  For example, am i ethically bound to tell my avian vet that I'm on TX and therefore the parrots, whose nails he manicures, could, conceivably have come in contact with contaminated blood and so therefore . . . .

I mean, i didn't see him wearing latex gloves the other day when he was ministering to the injured budgie.

  

[jmjm530]

C'mon, you're seen the Valtrex commercial for "Chirpees" , haven't you?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bX8mLFVpCOI

[jmjm530]

Whoops. Wrong Valtrex Chirpies Commercial. Try this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v08NSTCTyP0

[Hepatitis Researcher]

In the above example, when you drop from 20000000 to UND, so do the chances of transmission by one of these animal vector routes - they drop by a factor of 40 million, because thats how much less virus will be on the cats or parrots claw. Nice risk reduction.

Jim, we are talking about a fully infected person in the household together with an animal that can transmit.If you compare that to the chance of being bitten by an infected mosquito or playing ball, or any petowner NOT infected, that is an argument, that is hard to follow. This was about the nephew of an infected person,  in THAT setting, is there a real risk? Yes there is and it better be taken seriously.

[wyntre9]

*LOL*

OK.  Now I get it.

wyn

[wyntre9]

All I can say is it's a good thing I didn't know about this before I reached UND, 9 months ago.  I would have been certifiable by now.

Not that anyone besides me handles the flock with anything other than a towel or a perch.

wyn

[jmjm530]

Sorry, did not mean to imply that the "ball playing" or "mosquito" example were in the same ballpark, so to speak, merely trying to show how you could keep going with this sort of thing.

However, I do not think my analogy about someone venturing into any pet owner's home is far off the mark -- compared to the example in question. In the United States there are over 3 million infected with HCV, not sure how many infected with HIV or other blood transmittal diseases -- and that represents a considerable number of households where a pet could conceivably come into contact with an owner's dried blood.

-- Jim

[Hepatitis Researcher]

jim
and that represents a considerable number of households where a pet could conceivably come into contact with an owner's dried blood.

And I would indeed not want to be scratched by such a pet. Also LIVING in such a household is not the same as visiting. That amplifies your risk hundredfolds.

[jmjm530]

Again, in a transmission scenario,  blood would have to be drawn from an HCV infected person in the household. That blood would then have to survive during the  three-day period, i.e. not get rubbed/walked/liked off. Then any surviving blood would have to  be transferred to another person via another scratch from same paw that drew blood. And even if all this transpires, the transmission rate would have to be compared to a less than 3% medical stick rate that has been studied.

For this reason, I don't think anyone should be concerned about either having strangers walk into their house and be exposed to their pets, or be concerned about walking into a strangers house and being exposed to their pets.

This is not to say that if I had a pet and was HCV infected, and my pet drew my blood, that I would not wipe her paws with a disinfectant or even possibly keep her away from company for a day or so. But the discussion based on an example by "rek" where no blood was drawn as far was we know.

Please have the last word if you want.

-- Jim

[hippygem]

HR, would you have a link to any of this information regarding pets and HCV etc.

Linda

[mremeet]

jim above you say "That blood would then have to survive during the  three-day period, i.e. not get rubbed/walked/liked off." You seem to relate the possible contact route as usually a delayed one, which serves to mitigate risk. But speaking for myself, I grew up with three cats in our household. It was very common for one of us to play with the cats, especially when they were young and frisky. And we'd get scratches with their needle like claws (occasionally being a fairly deep penetration). And often within minutes another family member would also play with the cat. I agree the individualized event transmission risk is low, but the accumulated day-to-day risk could be appreciable. Cats can scratch the sh*t out of you when they're playing sometimes, especially when they're kittens as described above. I could see where transference might be realistically plausible if there is prolonged close quarters living and the cat is highly interactive with both the HCV infected person and the non-infected persons.

[kcrandy]

this is another senario.

when i get a cut or scrape my dog will lick my wound and believe it or it heals much faster when he does this than waiting for the natural process of healing.

can an animal get the hcv virus as well or do you think the cleaness so to speak of my dogs mouth kills the virus before it does harm to my dog.

just curious.

[jmjm530]

The sentence you quoted was badly written, and should have referred to the "three-day" period as the "outside' period since that is how low it's hypothesized HCV can live outside the body. Yes, a number of scenarios where it could only be hours or minutes, and I, like yourself, grew up in a household with cats, who would scratch on occasion when I tormented them :)  I don't disagree that these things can't happen, just don't think the day-to-day risk isn't  worth focusing on for reasons I've already labored. Mind you, I'm as paranoid as the next person, but worry a lot more when I go to the doc's office to get scoped, etc, then when visiting friends with cats, who as you know, tend to keep their claws fairly clean.

Kc,

I think only Chimpanzees can get HCV, certainly not dogs. As to the saliva being a protectorant, not sure if that has been studied although I do remember some studies re insects where they postulated that some insect-like secretion might stop the virus from being transmitted from person to insect to person.

[kcrandy]

thanks, i feel better now i was startin to worry my little buddy might get it from me, so i will tell him it is ok to keep tx'g my wounds.  : O )

does this mean i will have to start calling him 'Dr Zeus".