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Curcumin
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Curcumin

Curcumin is an available substance that has serious potential to prevent or treat liver fibrosis. Oral administration in humans suffer from the limited bioavailibility of regular curcumin preparations. Combinations with biopterin have been shown to enhance curcumin absorption, but only to a limited degree. New curcumin formulations have appeared on the supplement market that claim a very substantially enhanced absorption/bioavailibility. I have not yet found proof of these claims in the peer reviiewed literature, which however does not necessarily mean that this claims have no merit.
Curcumin is a substance that is worth discussing with your treating hepatologist. Not during tx, since it has a clear antiinflammatory effectiveness/mechanism that is likely to counteract some of the immunestimulating effects of IFN. Below are two examples of recent abstracts re its antifibrotic potential.
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Curcumin: potential for hepatic fibrosis therapy?



1School of Chemical Sciences and Pharmacy, University of East Anglia, Norwich, UK.

The beneficial antioxidative, anti-inflammatory and antitumorigenic effects of curcumin have been well documented in relation to cancer and other chronic diseases. Recent evidence suggests that it may be of therapeutic interest in chronic liver disease. Hepatic fibrosis (scarring) occurs in advanced liver disease, where normal hepatic tissue is replaced with collagen-rich extracellular matrix and, if left untreated, results in cirrhosis. Curcumin inhibits liver cirrhosis in a rodent model and exerts multiple biological effects in hepatic stellate cells (HSCs), which play a central role in the pathogenesis of hepatic fibrosis. In response to liver injury, these cells proliferate producing pro-inflammatory mediators and extracellular matrix. Curcumin induces apoptosis and suppresses proliferation in HSCs. In addition, it inhibits extracellular matrix formation by enhancing HSC matrix metalloproteinase expression via PPARgamma and suppressing connective tissue growth factor (CTGF) expression. In this issue, Chen and co-workers propose that curcumin suppresses CTGF expression in HSC by inhibiting ERK and NF-kappaB activation. These studies suggest that curcumin modulates several intracellular signalling pathways in HSC and may be of future interest in hepatic fibrosis therapy.British Journal of Pharmacology advance online publication, 26 November 2007

Curcumin protects the rat liver from CCl4-caused injury and fibrogenesis by attenuating oxidative stress and suppressing inflammation.

Saint Louis University.

We previously demonstrated that curcumin, a polyphenolic antioxidant purified from turmeric, up regulated PPARgamma gene expression and stimulated its signaling, leading to the inhibition of activation of hepatic stellate cells (HSC) in vitro. The current study evaluates the in vivo role of curcumin in protecting the liver against injury and fibrogenesis caused by carbon tetrachloride (CCl4) in rats and further explores the underlying mechanisms. We hypothesize that curcumin might protect the liver from CCl4-caused injury and fibrogenesis by attenuating oxidative stress, suppressing inflammation and inhibiting activation of HSC. This report demonstrates that curcumin significantly protects the liver from injury by reducing the activities of serum aspartate aminotransferase, alanine aminotransferase and alkaline phosphatase, and by improving the histological architecture of the liver. In addition, curcumin attenuates oxidative stress by increasing the content of hepatic glutathione, leading to the reduction in the level of lipid hydroperoxide. Curcumin dramatically suppresses inflammation by reducing levels of inflammatory cytokines, including IFN-gamma, TNF-alpha and IL-6. Furthermore, curcumin inhibits HSC activation by elevating the level of PPARgamma and reducing the abundance of PDGF, TGF-beta, their receptors and type I collagen. This study demonstrates that curcumin protects the rat liver from CCl4-caused injury and fibrogenesis by suppressing hepatic inflammation, attenuating hepatic oxidative stress and inhibiting HSC activation. These results confirm and extend our prior in vitro observations and provide novel insights into the mechanisms of curcumin in the protection of the liver. Our results suggest that curcumin might be a therapeutic anti-fibrotic agent for the treatment of hepatic fibrosis.
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I read an article in the Bangkok post a while back about a formula invented in a hospital there for liver disease using cucurmin derived from tumeric, mixed with chili peppers and what they call morning glory, not the same plant that goes by that name here.
So I find this very intersesting although I can't understand the details. Thanks for posting.


  
  



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For patients with early cirrhosis and no current chance to eliminate HCV  a well designed and complete liver protective and antifibrotic regimen might be their best chance to halt progression and possibly dramatically improve long term prognosis. Curcumin holds a high position insuch a regimen, roughly equal - from our curent point of view - to resveratrol. This is always to be seen on top of the basic approaches ( nutrition/metabolism, eubiosis, glutathione/thiol status, methyldonors).

When several publications, abstracts, posters at meetings and proper fibrosis mechanistic/inhibitory pathways concepts point repeatedly in the same direction, and a substance is additionally GRAS, then we can have a decent hope for clinical effectiveness, provided proper dosage is also obtained. Here we are somewhat in the dark. Unfortunately, clinical trials to prove antifibrotic effectiveness are very expensive, require multiple biopsies, a large time frame and give no hope for a sponsor to derive future income from the results, regardless how positive. Much less can you expect a clinical trial to be undertaken, that would use a combined, much more powerful approach to antifibrosis, that is much more likely to yield good results.
The irresponsible, profit driven "hepatoprotective" claims by many supplement "dealers" furthermore damage the chance of the few substances that have good, realistic research and mainstream scientific concepts behind them, since they dilute the efforts of patients/doctors to navigate and act in practical terms  in this extremely difficult but also extremely important topic.
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Along with some other herbs which surprised me, such as Sho-saiko-to “bupleurum” Curcumin is on the list of herbs to avoid see below. What would be a safe amount?
The following is from HCV & CAM: Dietary Supplements to Avoid http://www.hcvadvocate.org/hepatitis/factsheets_pdf/CAM_avoid.pdf

23Turmeric (curcumin) is probably safe for liver patients unless taken in large doses.
Turmeric (curcumin) is being studied as a possible treatment for hepatitis, but until the evidence is in, avoid or use cautiously.

Blue-green Algae (Spirulina)* is also on the list.
If the Blue-green Algae is as toxic as the varieties we have in Aust I wouldnt go near it.

CS
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Thanks once again for your valuable input.  
I ordered curcumin for my husband when you first brought it up.  I bought it from vitacost online.  They have a brand that combines it with a form of piperine claiming it to be more absorbable. This is copied from their product description:

How Does NSI® Turmeric Extract with Bioperine® Work?
Turmeric (Curcuma longa) is an ancient spice native to India and Southeast Asia, best known for its distinctive flavor and yellow color, used in curries and some prepared mustards. Besides being a food additive, turmeric has been used for centuries in Ayurveda, Siddha, Unani, and other traditional medicines as a remedy for stomach and liver ailments.

Curcumin, the active ingredient in turmeric, contains a mixture of powerful phytonutrients known as curcuminoids. Curcuminoids have antioxidant properties, meaning they fight the damaging effects of free radical molecules in the body.

Curcuminoids may play a part in blocking a key biological pathway that causes damage to cells and may lead to their unhealthy, unrestrained growth¹. They shut down nuclear factor kappa B (NF-kB), known to regulate expression of more than 300 genes that promote inflammatory responses which lead to joint inflammation and cell damage. NSI® Turmeric Extract with Bioperine® is standardized to 95% curcuminoids.

Although the therapeutic effects of curcumin are often limited due to its poor absorption in the GI tract, NSI® Turmeric Extract with Bioperine® has been specially formulated with a patented bioavailability enhancer. Bioperine® is a form of piperine, a component of black pepper, found to increase the bioavailability of curcumin twenty-fold².

I remembered reading in Dr. Melissa Palmer's book that piperine had the ability to prevent depletion of glutathione.  That sounded like a good combination for our purpose. (husband has cirrhosis)  Does this sound good to you?
Sincerely grateful for your help.

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Many thanks for the heads-up.  You've really been working at getting the anti-fibrotic message across and it finally sunk into my brain - I just ordered resveratrol and curcumin.  The message took a while to get through to me but your persistence may well have made all the difference to my future well being.    
dointime.  
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That " liver warning" does not sound too dangerous. I am carefully monitoring the literature and meeting posters/presentations not only for effectiveness, but also potential toxicity. Studies in human volunteeers with extremely high doses of curcumin have to date not shown any toxicity within the parameters examined. Two aspects should be kept  in mind:
1. Turmeric might have some more toxic compounds in them than purified curcumin, a chemically well defined substance. While the plant might have additional positive effects from the combined use of its ingredients, it might also contain hidden/limiting  toxicities.
2. All relevant studies have been done with the purified compound.

3. One should start the use of it slowly increasing  and follow the LFTs. This would give early warning re potential neg effects. The end dose should probably be in the range of 1000mg for the new bioavailable formulations, but that is just an educated guess.
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What you have is the older version , where biopterin is used to improve availibility. This yields about 1.5 times the absorption compared to  regular curcumin. This has been published. The latest version however claims to have 6 times better bioavailibility ( GI absorption) and some data of actual studies ( not published  thus far, to my knowledge) were shown to confirm this claim. If true, the effectiveness would be greatly enhanced.

evangelin : The NAC/VitC and ALA will provide/ensure production of      plenty of glutathione.
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I didnt think it sounded that bad either, but it must have been included for a reason.
Go easy with the Tumeric it is then.

The follow LFTs seems like a good idea when taking anything, apart from that gives me an excuse to do a little more of the monitor thing, which I am a bit slack on lately

Thanks
CS
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hey thanks for continuing to share your knowledge. so would this be something to add to the other sups that you suggested on an earlier post? if you were stage 1 on bx and had to pick just a few of the sups to take what would you suggest?  i'm not into taking a bunch of pills but would like to take just a few with the most benefit. thanks again
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One other thing.
Is there any evidence for improved SVR rates when taking AntiOxidents/AntiFibrotics (or anything else for that matter) before TX.

CS
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The PPC is the only hepatoprotective/antifibrotic  substance which has been evaluated together with IFN and it has interestingly  improved SVR rates, as posted earlier. It is impossible to predict how strong acting antiinflammatory substances like Curcumin and Resveratrol would impact SVR rates. We have to assume that activation of the innate/adaptive system during SOC depends partly on ancient primitive proinflammatory pathways.

Taking these before Tx should not influence SVRs either way, but there is no way to be sure about that.

Copy: Curcumin and Resveratrol are like the top of the antifibrotic pyramid. I have described the base before. It is a combination of reduced injury, improved hepatocellular response/defense to injury, and then the multiple deactivation of the stellate cell activation pathway that underlies almost all fibrosis production. All that can be done with safe measures and carefully selected GRAS substances, that is the strength of it.
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Good to see you here. I am now taking Curcumin, Resveratrol, and Sylmarin antiinflammatories. I also take PPC, N-A-C/vit C, T-M-G, Taurine, a prebiotic and probiotic, ALA, EPA, DHA, cq10, vit e, multi vit no iron.

When I begin tx I plan to continue taking these with the possible exception of the anti inflammatories.  Our conversation was unfortunately cut short and I was not able to ask if anything might be added to this regimen, and might this regimen help to REVERSE mild cirrhosis? As always, I look forward to, and highly appreciate your posts. Thank you.
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Ive been taking tumeric 2 times a days for the since i relapsed,also ive been taking blue green algae ....my LFT`s have been in normal range ever since ive been taking this "FOOD".......BTW Mr Researcher.....whats your views on this blue green algae.....also know as AFA....it releases stem cells from bone marrow and regerates the liver and other parts of our body.
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http://www.pharmcast.com/Patents100/Yr2004/Nov2004/110904/6814961_StemCell110904.htm
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This is just a patent and the claim that is made is enormous, without any proof.

As to the quality of the proofreading of this patent: This is pasted directly from it:
" The percentage decrease in the number of circulating stem cells compared to a normal baseline may about 25%, about 50%, about 75%, or even about 100% as compared to a control."

Aha, the algae, actually decrease the circulating stem cells.

the point: If i can detect this unpleasant mistake in the patent text within 1 minute, why havent the inventors or patent examiners seen it?

I will make an extra effort to check if there is any promise to the blue green algae as a liver therapeutic.
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Your regimen is becoming quite complete, provided the dosages are adequate. And of course provided that the weight loss and the ongoing dietary principles  ( the metabolic stress avoidance to the liver) are handled with great care.
As for the antifibrotic supplements green tea extract might make it even more complete.

The sum of all these measures  has a realistic chance to halt or even reverse mild fibrosis. This needs to be proven on a case by case basis by either paired biopsies or paired fibroscans, properly performed.
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Oh yes, green tea is in there; merely forgot. Resveratrol now at 1000 mg a day with only minor problems. Weight and exercise? Perhaps I could just take another pill! LOL  URQ pain has ceased and hope it is the supplements doing the job. In fact I feel so good... I hate to tox!   Thanks for taking me down this road. I am thinking of continuing at least Sylmarin on tox, standing at that crossroad and looking for something to tip me one way or the other. Any studies out there on this you could steer me towards?
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Sorry meant to say mild cirrhosis, not fibrosis, of course, above.

Resveratrol   2 x 500 should be quite effective
No studies on tx and supplement interaction are TMK available with notable exception PPC. If you were in this state, we could perform a fibroscan and then while on strict antifibrotic regimen, repeat it in 6 month. If all is stable or even better, you could possibly wait for the combo SOC+ Vertex+Alinia. By early 2011 Telaprevir and  more info re Alinia and geno 1 will be available and decent conclusions could be drawn re other genotypes.
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Thank you for your response,im not too sure about the explaination they mean ,talking about the % of stem cells and in that paragraph,it is confusing,but i will tell you from personal experience,my own mothwer takes this stuff and her arthritis went away ,almost immeaditaly...excuse my spelling,,...i also have meat lots of people with similar experiences.
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Like the sound of that. Hmmm... I know fibroscan is the best test available, but they are not widely available. Is there a second choice alternative that might work? Perhaps another biopsy and bloodwork could be a measuring stick. I see a hemotologist for low platelets (which have improved a little bit of late .88 from .67 in 8 weeks) and my WBC count is 2.8 and not changing. I am concerned that tx will quickly drop me into a position where I would have to stop tox early. So, if I had time to improve these numbers, it may be in my best interest to consider your approach.
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you seem to know so much. i am a 40 year old female diagnosed with chronic active hepatitis b i was first diagnose at 25 and was told not to worry.  well i have been very sick and have been diagnosed with still active hepatitis b (recently) and gastritis, gastroperesis, esophougus problems and now i have hurting knees that are filling with fluid.  the rhuematolgist said even though i am a low positive for rhuematism it is not that and could be the hep b.  i am in pain all the time and sick at my stomach daily.  i have had bad medical care in my opinion so i set an appointment with a hemotolgist in feb.  i also (through a cat scan) was diagnosed with a hemangioma.  could it be cancer? and how do they know? i am worried i feel horrible. any help would be so appreciated. thankyou so much Ginny
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Hey, This is the first I've ever heard of "good and bad polyphenols". Anyone know anything about this?
February 25th, 2006


Green Tea Polyphenols May Cause Liver Damage in High Doses
SourceURL:http://www.medicalnewstoday.com

The polyphenols present in green tea plants or herbs could pose health risks to humans if extracted and packaged in highly concentrated doses, says a new University of Toronto study published in the current issue of Free Radical Biology and Medicine.

In small mammals, green and black tea phenolics -- a class of chemical compounds found in plants that include polyphenols -- have been proven to contain antioxidants that help reduce the risk of cancer and cardiovascular disease. Findings such as these have helped to make these teas popular choices among health-conscious tea drinkers around the world.

Working with a team of graduate students, Professor Peter O'Brien of the Leslie Dan Faculty of Pharmacy injected low and concentrated doses of polyphenols into mice. At low doses, "good" polyphenols protected the liver or isolated liver cells against oxygen radicals, while "bad" polyphenols caused liver toxicity at high concentrations.

"The low concentration is roughly equivalent to what people consume when they drink green or black tea," O'Brien says. "But the health benefits are not clear as only a small amount of the polyphenols in the teas seems to get absorbed across the intestine. We won't know how much is absorbed or metabolized without running large clinical trials involving humans."

O'Brien has no plans to stop drinking green or black tea anytime soon, but cautions those who might want to exploit the antioxidant and health promoting properties of tea polyphenols against consuming concentrated doses in pill form as this could create more health problems than it might fix.

"New drugs are subjected to exhaustive clinical trials," he says. "Our findings demonstrate that there simply isn't enough known at this time to substantiate green tea's health-promoting properties if taken in high concentrations."

http://www.utoronto.ca


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In reference to the above quoted article:

o Brien  in Torotnto is performing very serious research on the potential toxicity of polyphenols since many years and i follow his work very carefully, it is of excellent academic and scientific quality. The conclusions to be drawn re the practical use of these plant substances need to be done carefully as well and the study of the original papers is necessary to understand the impact of this type of research on practical implications. Secondary internet articles by journalists are likely to be oversimplified and grossly distorted, thus dangerously misleading in either direction.  

What follow is the pertinent portion from the actual paper by Dr. OBrien that will show the experimental approach re green tea components ( intraperitoneal, the comparative discussions of oral animal toxicity testing and the toxicities or lack thereof found and the actual concentrations/amounts of the substances used. This needs to be compared to the oral doses offered for humans in at least a semiquantitative fashion.

Quotation "
Due to its central role in drug metabolism, the liver is particularly susceptible to injury following systemic exposure to xenobiotics by ip administration. To test whether hepatocytes are susceptible to tea catechins or gallic acid in vivo as shown here for hepatocytes in vitro, the hepatotoxicity of these dietary phenolics in vivo was therefore tested in mice by ip administration. It was found that the dietary phenolics NDGA, gallic acid, propyl gallate, tannic acid, and EGCG, administered ip, all significantly increased plasma ALT levels, at various doses, compared to the control. The order of hepatotoxic effectiveness found, using a plasma ALT level of approximately 200 U/L (a 4-fold increase compared to control), was as follows: NDGA (50 mg/kg) > tannic acid, EGCG (both approximately 120 mg/kg) > propyl gallate (170 mg/kg) >> gallic acid (500 mg/kg). Surprisingly, the most abundant tea catechin (EGCG) caused death to mice in less than 24 h at a dose of 150 mg/kg. NDGA has previously been shown to have an LD50 (ip), after 5 days, of 75 mg/kg and to cause 100% mortality by ip injection at 100 and 500 mg/kg after 30 h in female Balb/c mice [43]. Interestingly, we found that a lower concentration of EGCG (150 mg/kg) caused 100% mortality in male CD-1 mice in 24 h. NDGA, a polyphenolic component of chaparral tea, has also been implicated in published case studies of hepatotoxicity that developed in users of chaparral tea [17].

However, normal exposure to tea flavonoids or gallic acid occurs by the oral route and the liver is mostly exposed to flavonoid phase II conjugates formed when the flavonoid or gallic acid is transported across the intestinal cell. The ip administration route may therefore normally have no toxic implications. Recently, the no-observed-adverse-effect level for feeding a gallic acid-containing diet for 13 weeks to male F344 rats was found to be 119 mg/kg/day. Centrilobular liver cell hypertrophy was observed at 1.7% gallic acid, whereas hemolytic anemia of weak severity developed at 5% gallic acid [44].

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That quiet sound like wind whispering is me shadowing your nutrition plan. Thank you!

HR: You're giving me an ulcer!!    :)

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Believe me, you can trust this regimen. Make sure to get the good stuff, especially the PPC and Resveratrol. Let me know if you need any links.
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why the taurine?sylmarin? can you direct me to a post of HR's regimen suggestions?and what is ALA, EPA, DHA
like scratching head I will be your shadow too!
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HR, I'm so thankful for the research you've done with Alternative therapies for HCV! Wanted to throw in another plug for Cucumin...that would be it's anti-cancer effects! :o) Time to whip up some Curry Soup...yuk...lol

http://carcin.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/27/10/2008

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/health/2002619095_healthturmeric13.html

http://caonline.amcancersoc.org/cgi/content/full/56/2/67

here's a clip from pubmed re effects on immune system....wow, good stuff.

: 1 Review: 1
Click to change filter selection through MyNCBI.

1: J Clin Immunol. 2007 Jan;27(1):19-35. Epub 2007 Jan 9.Click here to read Links
    "Spicing up" of the immune system by curcumin.
    Jagetia GC, Aggarwal BB.

    Cytokine Research Laboratory, Department of Experimental Therapeutics, The University of Texas M. D. Anderson Cancer Center, Houston, Texas 77030, USA.

    Curcumin (diferuloylmethane) is an orange-yellow component of turmeric (Curcuma longa), a spice often found in curry powder. Traditionally known for its an antiinflammatory effects, curcumin has been shown in the last two decades to be a potent immunomodulatory agent that can modulate the activation of T cells, B cells, macrophages, neutrophils, natural killer cells, and dendritic cells. Curcumin can also downregulate the expression of various proinflammatory cytokines including TNF, IL-1, IL-2, IL-6, IL-8, IL-12, and chemokines, most likely through inactivation of the transcription factor NF-kappaB. Interestingly, however, curcumin at low doses can also enhance antibody responses. This suggests that curcumin's reported beneficial effects in arthritis, allergy, asthma, atherosclerosis, heart disease, Alzheimer's disease, diabetes, and cancer might be due in part to its ability to modulate the immune system. Together, these findings warrant further consideration of curcumin as a therapy for immune disorders.

    PMID: 17211725 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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hi...would the statement below mean that Cucumin should not be taken with NAC because the NAC could block the benefits of the Cucumin?
Thanks for your time!


Pretreatment with N-acetyl-cysteine prevents apoptosis by curcumin plus TRAIL
We and other groups have reported that curcumin promotes formation of reactive oxygen species (ROS) (19,26). Therefore, we next examined the role of ROS in curcumin plus TRAIL-induced apoptosis using the thiol antioxidant N-acetyl-cysteine (NAC) (27). Pretreatment of Caki cells with NAC markedly blocked curcumin plus TRAIL-induced apoptosis (Figure 4A). As shown in Figure 4B, cotreatment with curcumin and TRIAL induced downregulation of XIAP proteins. Since XIAP has been previously reported to be a substrate of caspases during apoptosis (28) and pretreatment with z-VAD, a pan-caspase inhibitor, blocked downregulation of XIAP following treatment with curcumin and TRAIL (data not shown), this reduction of XIAP protein levels might be the result of caspase activation in response to the combined treatment, rather than the cause of curcumin-stimulated TRAIL-induced apoptosis. NAC pretreatment significantly inhibited caspase 3 activation, attenuated the cleavage of PLC-{gamma}1 and prevented downregulation of XIAP (Figure 4B). These data clearly indicate that prevention of curcumin plus TRAIL-induced apoptosis by NAC is associated with the blocking of ROS generation and the subsequent activation of caspases.
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Hi there
I'm located in Spain and I was wondering if I can get the PPC and Resveratol over the internet. Can you post the links?
Thanks

scuba
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gauf-AS am I.(shadowing that is) Would you be willing to be specific about the pro/prebiotic diet you are using? thanks, jerry HR- I guess my green tea extract question is are there products that might not be so great for your liver, I mean you can purchase GT extract at Wal-Mart for Petes' sake! thanks, jm
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These in vitro experiments use NAC at extremely high concentrations ( you could never reach those by any form of therapeutic inout in vivo)  as an experimental  tool to investigate mechanisms of action, in this particular case if indeed ROS are the reason for caspase activation. It is very difficult to properly interpret the practical meaning, if any, of these in vitro experiments, without looking at the concentrations of the reactants actually used and how they would compare to an in vivo therapeutic levels.  Good papers/publications/research approaches     use a wide range of effector concentrations, trying to mimick in vivo achievable levels.  See also the above work re green tea components.

NAC remains a cornerstone of hepatoprotective measures.
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ALA is found in flax seed oil. EPA and DHA are omega 3 and 6 found in fish oil. Norwegian salmon is one of the best sources.

HR has recommended the liver lover supplement regimen and has discussed it in detail in the following links:

.
http://www.medhelp.org/posts/show/346752
http://www.medhelp.org/posts/show/358480
http://www.medhelp.org/posts/show/381299
http://www.medhelp.org/posts/show/379137

I get all of these suuplements online at "smartbomb.com" with the exception of the resveratrol which I get from "Mega resveratrol.com" It is the best quality I have found.
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Glad to see you're taking nutritional measures in between treatments.

Since you started the supplementation, are you monitoring your liver enzymes frequently? I think this important whenever you introduce a new or group of supplements or drugs, as we all havew individual reactions.

The other thing is to make sure which supplements make sense during treatment as opposed to before or after treatment. If in doubt, best to err on the side of caution and eliminate the supplement as there could be a negative interaction with the tx drugs.

Lastly, how is the weight loss going? Getting down to your ideal BMI is probably the single most important thing you can do both in terms of future treatment success as well as general health.

I can tell you don't fall into this category -- but there is a group of folks who seem to use supplements as an easy-ride to better health as opposed to first starting with fundamental lifestyle changes such as stopping smoking, getting down to an appropriate weight (BMI), exercising regularly and eating sensibly. All the supplements in the world won't help much if your lifestyle is terribly wrong.

All the best in getting ready for next time and Happy New Year!

-- Jim
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The emphasis in the Curcumin paper seems to be on preventention/attenuation of fibrosis.

For us few lucky SVR types who are focused on anything that helps with regeneration to reverse fibrosis [Stage 3 at bx in my case], is Curcumin a candidate?
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Thanks Jim, I have lost nearly 35 lbs. and I need to drop about 25 more to make my ideal weight. It is a slow process at this point. Logging a lot of miles on the treadmill and watching what I eat of course. I have nearly eliminated all sugar and that has improved my mood and well being tremendously. Not nearly as tired as I was before.

The supplements I have added 1 at a time over the course of a few weeks per HRs' advice. I have had no adverse effects with the exception of the Resveratrol, which causes diarrea (diarrhea) in my case. It is an important part of the regimen though, so I am playing with dosage and looking for a compromise with my system.

I have not had LFTs' checked since July. I am scheduled to go back and see the Hepatoligist soon, waiting on a call back. he has no idea I am on the supplements and we will have much to discuss. I think he may end up firing me as a patient because of my steadfast position on Alinia. We'll see.

I am following this supplement regimen because I may be stage 4 and need to bide some time. Especially if I have to go doc shopping. I also have low platelets and low WBC counts and concerned my immune system just won't be able to handle the tox. My hemotologist checks me out every 6 weeks or so. WBC around 2.8 since ending 2nd round of treatment. Platelets around 66.

I want to tox, but these issues are holding me up. I may be prediabetic as well. I know I need labs and plenty of them. A fibroscan would be great as well. If I could draw my own blood and send it off somewhere...I would!

This is a daily list of what I take.  Hopefully HR will read this and comment on the dosages.

a multi vitamin/no iron
1000 mg of Salmon Oil (epa=160 mg / dha=240 mg / omega 3 = 400 mg) x1
1000 mg of Flaxseed Oil (ALA/omega 3 450 mg / omega 9 110 mg) x1
Hepatapro PPC (900 mg) x 2
Resveratrol (500 mg) x1  and x2 (alternate every other day)
NAC (600 mg) x2 with Vit C (500 mg) x2
TMG (750 mg) x 2
Taurine (500 mg) x 2
Curcumin (500 mg) x 2
Sylmarin (425 mg) x 2
Green Tea Extract (300 mg) x 2
Q02 (200 mg) x 1

Colon complete complex contains:
Fiber complex (2000 mg) x2
Lactobacillus F19 probiotic (14 mg) x 2
Lactospore prebiotic (20 mg) x2

I will go with Lactulose amd Lactobacillus GG when I use up what I have.

I need to get a base line so I can monitor how these are working over time, so if you have any input on labs, testing, or biopsy I would appreciate it. Hopefully I can find a doc who will order these for me.

For someone who has always hated pills...I sure am taking a bunch!


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Jim
"-- but there is a group of folks who seem to use supplements as an easy-ride to better health as opposed to first starting with fundamental lifestyle changes such as stopping smoking, getting down to an appropriate weight (BMI), exercising regularly and eating sensibly. All the supplements in the world won't help much if your lifestyle is terribly wrong. "

An extremely important and correct statement. Lifestyle is hard, pills are easy.

Gauf;
The ALA  = alpha lipoic acid = lipoic acid = octanoic acid = lipoic acid = liponsaeure
is best taken as direct supplement, like 2 to three times 200mg/day, unless you know exactly how much is contained in the flaxseed Oil. Do not use the often advertised Dihydrolipoic acid. While this IS the reduced=active form of this coenzyme/lipophilic antioxidant, it is very stomach agressive and needs to be constantly reduced in the cells metabolism anyway, as part of a complex hirarchy of Oxidoreductive chain processes.

ALA is a very important component, that deserves particular attention, a simple double thiol Octanic acid derivative, that has critical metabolic functions ( like eg a coenzyme in the oxidative decarboxylation of pyruvate to Acetyl-CoenzymeA, the most central metabolic pathway of all) and is a lipophilic antioxidant that enriches in the cellular membranes, particular the mitochondrial membranes, where it is most needed. It also acts, like NAC, as an imprtant  thiol donator and will work in synchrony with glutathione and several other cellular antioxidant protective pathways/oxidoreductive reaction chains.


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Avatar_m_tn
I salute your efforts! 35 pounds is an achievement and the next 25 will be an even bigger one, as it may take a little more time and patience. Slow and sensible is the best way to lose weight where you change your lifestyle permanetly as opposed to going on a "diet".  Taking if off fast is often the best way to put it back on fast.

Insurance and finances allowing, my only suggestion is to do bloodwork at least monthly -- esp LFTs -- when you're adding so much new stuff. Ideally, you'd add one thing at a time -- and then follow-up with bloodwork, however not always practical. Also, again if finances and insurance allow -- why not throw in VL tests monthly as well, cause when you do get down to fighting weight, you might want to start treatment coincidental with a trough in viral load, should all the stars align just right.

Happy New Year!

-- Jim
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Avatar_dr_m_tn
Curcumin and several other antifibrotic measures might well accelerate the reversal of fibrosis in an SVR patient.For reasons often mentioned, this will never be proven in an approriate clinical trial, there is no incentive to any sponsor. Sometimes NIH sponsors small trials of that sort, but never anything involving a cocktail of synergistic measures "a regimen", which unfortunately has the best chances of being effective. So we are limited to meaningful extrapolation and can try substances which are GRAS with little fear of harm. But anything has to be always discussed with the local doctors, who know the patients personal history and can take that into account. Sometimes, sadly, there simply is not enough time for them to be up to date on these other developments - there is just too much to follow.
Introducing anything in a slow and careful pace and with monitoring of LFTs and for success with future fibroscans are minimum cautious principles to follow. And lifestyle optimization is first and foremost.
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As a relapser, this sounds really interesting!  I am not ready to do another round of SOC. I only made it 47 weeks before having ischemic colitis, possibly from interferon. Albeit rare, I am scared to do tx again with interferon, do you agree?  Of course, it could have been something else. I do have Lupus anticoagulent, so this could possibly be the cause of the GI bleeds I have had post tx.  

I am now going to UCSF to a hepatologist that was at the AALD and knows his stuff. I will ask him about this. Do you think it would be good for me?  I have fatty liver and won't have a biopsy again, unless I plan on tx'ing again.  Stick a fork in me, I am done!!  At least for a while  Thanks for the post and nice to see you again.

Linda
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Sorry to hear all the misfortunes you have to go through. Some hepatologists, like the leading one at UCSF start using some of the liverprotective means like  eg phosphatidylcholine, particularly for patients not cor current  on tx consideration. I am glad you are in this type of care now and hope they will use some of these means to your advantage.
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Thanks for the kind words and the info. I am really glad I am in good care now. I had to complain to the ins. co about the GI I had before. Of course, he fired me!!  No sweat, I am glad.  I will ask him about this!
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One question in refernce to your commen t”Curcumin holds a high position in such a regimen, roughly equal - from our curent point of view - to resveratrol.”
Do you therefore recommend using both resveratol and curcumin, or just the curcumin?
      Thanks ,     OH
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It sure sounds like both are good together.  Sounds good, huh?  Let me know what you think.  Now that we are off of tx, some of these antifibrotics sound good for us, unlike Alina. I trust HR with my life, and have. He's the real deal.  Now I just want to know where I buy this stuff!  I think Gauf has some good sites.....
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Curcumin and resveratrol are the top of the pyramid, Chances are they will work well together. But first is weight / lifestyle/diet see above, eubiosis, the other hepatoprotective/indirectly antifibrotic hopefuls and then the potent antiinflammatory Curc/Resvera. Slow introduction, periodic LFT checks and ideally liver fibrosis measurements are the prudent thing to do. In a year or so that will tell you if this is indeed a way to delay/halt/reverse fibrosis in your very personal liver.
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I am 6 weeks post treatment of 48 weeks, Geno 1a.  I had UND at week 12 and 23.  I have not had another PCR since.   Dr would not order till 6 mos post.   Now I called to make appt for f/u and he is gone.   Is there anything that I could or should be taking in the meantime, that I would benefit from.  I have mild fibrosis from Bx and am 2/2.  This was my 2nd round of tx.. I found out in 93 that the blood received after hemorage in surgery in 84 was tainted with HepC.  I started tx then in 93, and was on Interferon , 3 mil units a week,   would take it 3 times a week.  I was slow to respond, and at end of  6 mos, levels were normal.   I thought I was good to go.. then after several rechecks it must have gone up at some point & doc wanted to send me to Shands for Trial.  I did not want to go thru what I had delt with the prev 6 mos.. So I said I will take my chances.  Of course they did not know much about HEPC back then.      I just want to make sure that I reach SVR this time.  I do not want to go thru tx again.  I do not think I could handle it.  I lost a total of 107 lbs while on tx and have lost 4 more since.   That part was a blessing.    I just need to know if there is something I should be doing in the meantime, until I see the Sr GI where I go, or let the PCP order the labs and cc copies to me , so I can tell where I am   , then find another doctor if need be ? I am at a total loss. Here I am finally done, and don't even know where I am.   Any info you can give would be very much appreciated.  

Happy New Year.
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OH,  I know you are stage 4, right? I am stage 1/2  Antifibrotics would really seem to help you, as it seems you have progressed into cirrohisis.  Me on the otherhand have had this for perhaps 30 years when I got an airgun shot going through a border in Morroco.  I haven't progressed much and the fibroscan shows that my liver looks really good in most places and then bad in others.   My fibrosis hasn't progressed much.  Everyone is different in how fast the progression is.  Of course, no one knows why this is. My Dr. says, I will most likely die from smoking than Hep C.  Trying to Quit!!!    So HR, is there any correlation in why someone with little progression versus fast progression may be helped with these antifibrotics? Or if they will?  
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Not much you can do at this point beyond waiting for your hopefully UND post EOT PCR and persuing a healthy lifestyle. It sounds as if you had way too much weight before tx, that in itself can be a reason to relapse, most hopefully not in your case. Maybe you can persuade your doc to give you a 12wk post EOT PCR, so that your painful wait is shortened.
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I have cirrhosis.
I’ve been taking milk thistle, omega 3 fish oil, turmeric, SAM-e, ALA, fish oil and bromelain for months. I recently added glutamine re: your recommendation.
I’m small, thin, active when able, and eat complex carbs, veggies, fruit and only small amounts of animal protein.
     happy new year!
  
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Yes the weight gain came after treatment 15 years ago. I had lost alot during treatment the first time, and they put me on a high calorie / protein diet and I blew up.  Stuggled with it for years, like a yo yo.  Then developed diabetes about 4 years after EOT the first time.  But it was low sugar then.. had 3 grand mal siezures.  But got that under control with meds, and then during treatment ,my sugar levels returned to normal and still are.  and perfect BP.  I am going to call my PCP on weds and see if they will req the labs and lets get one now.  Now you have me worried that I could relapse , and being more of chance that I will. because of the excess weight loss.  Well thank you for your input, and I will contact my PCP on Weds and go from there.  I have an appt on Jan 16 with the Sr GI at the same center where I was going, but I may cancel it, unless this PCR that PCP orders comes back with anything other than UND.

Happy New Year all !!!     I am going in the other room to spend the last 20 mins of this year with my sweetie, as I watch the new year ring in on FOX, and drink my egg nog.   (virgin that is)
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Hey girl!  Don't worry about it, it sure won't help you get to SVR, huh?  You did all you could, you did lose the weight and did the tx.  Stress will only make you feel and be worse.  I always hate giving bad news to newbies. I remember when you first came to the forum. YOu were so scared and didn't know anything!  I told you things I NEVER wanted to! LOL Now you are a veteran and know all the terms and sx and you will know soon enough if you SVR'ed or not.  We know the risk, no use to worry now.  

Hugs and wishing you a very happy New year!
Linda
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Gawd, alot of information,  I used to take vitamins that were called Isotonix, they were reputed to be  more absorbable because they were in an isotonic form?  I felt good on them, I'm just wondering if there is any validity to this.  They have a grape seed extract that was wonderful, helped my thumb from years of massaging, I'm wondering if its worth it to go back to it. Any ideas, completely bogus or some value.  I'm going to make my breakfast right now w/ brown rice, peas, turmeric and scrambled egg.  
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Avatar_n_tn
hr: thanks for pointing this out as another potentially valuable supplement. Anyone interested can find the full text of the abstracts hr posted here (both are free access):

http://www.nature.com/bjp/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/0707580a.html
http://molpharm.aspetjournals.org/cgi/reprint/mol.107.039818v1

Though there seems to be wide-ranging  support for curcumin as an anti-inflammatory, the 1st editorial concludes with:

"Pharmacokinetic studies, however, suggest that oral administration results in low bioavailability. Pharmacologically active concentrations are achievable in tissues that are directly exposed to oral or topical curcumin including the colon, skin, eye and airways (Hsu and Cheng, 2007) and this suggests that alternative routes of administration are necessary for curcumin to be a successful therapy for hepatic fibrosis."

and I wonder how effective is its use as a nutritional supplement. However,  in the 2nd paper, showing protection of rat liver from CCl4 effects, administration was oral :
"Curcumin (200mg/kg, or 400mg/kg body weight) was suspended in sterile PBS and given once daily by gavage."

Overall, I've been very lax about pursuing any nutritional supplements beyond some omega-3 oil and vitamins but given this post I'm beginning to change my mind. My principal objection has always been the lack of clear causal connection between supplement and benefit, absence of definitive studies, lack of certainty about dosage and purity, etc. etc.  However your aguments above are convincing.

Focusing on the virus really is a distraction from the damage caused by inflammation. Even if use of supplements is based on partial and incomplete data, and establishing a definite benefit is likely an impossible goal (in part because of research  funding economics) they may provide the best currently available strategy. Acting on  incomplete information is better than not acting at all:  "we can have a decent hope for clinical effectiveness, provided proper dosage is also obtained"

all: does anyone have a link to the post(s) hr referred to above "I have described the base before. It is a combination of reduced injury, improved  hepatocellular response/defense to injury, and then deactivation of the stellate cell activation pathway that underlies almost all fibrosis". I think it would be a valuable service to re-post this "pyramid" on a regular basis. Preventative action is likely to be of benefit to  nearly everyone on this forum, regardless of SVR status.
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Avatar_n_tn
I was following up references in that Fu'07 article on rat livers and came across a line of papers implicating the cannabinoid cb2 receptor in improvement in  fibrosis generation. See for example:

Munoz-Luque J, Ros J, Fernandez-Varo G, Tugues S, Morales-Ruiz M, Alvarez CE, Friedman SL, Arroyo V, Jimenez W.

REGRESSION OF FIBROSIS AFTER CHRONIC STIMULATION OF CANNABINOID CB2 RECEPTOR IN CIRRHOTIC RATS.
J Pharmacol Exp Ther. 2007 Nov 20; [Epub ahead of print]
PMID: 18029545

(SL Friedman btw seems to be a  doyen of the fibrosis community)

or
Julien B, Grenard P, Teixeira-Clerc F, Van Nhieu JT, Li L, Karsak M, Zimmer A, Mallat A, Lotersztajn S.

Antifibrogenic role of the cannabinoid receptor CB2 in the liver.
Gastroenterology. 2005 Mar;128(3):742-55.
PMID: 15765409

I've stayed out of the ganja wars around here lately, but last I heard there seemed to be pretty clear evidence linking it to poorer SVR outlook.  Am I hallucinating or do I need to  plan on lighting up a couple of fatties along with those 12 cups of daily coffee I'm supposed to be downing. Not sure I can cope with this....
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I know with your charms, you'll light up the dreams of fat ladies anywhere! oh, and thanks for posting this article...was looking for stuff re this....be well....
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HR - comments on either of the following? Also, would you expect Curcumin to have any influence in the prevention of HCC?

https://lra.le.ac.uk/bitstream/2381/511/1/curcumin%20FINAL2.pdf

http://www.curcumin.co.nz/pdf/Bioavailability_Study_Of_Curcu-Gel.pdf
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Avatar_dr_m_tn
You are very capable of seeing/finding the critical issues. The formulation in the second study that was performed in India on humans is available in the US under two names and has been retested in the US for the reported effect in increasing bioavailibility. Considering that limited  bioavailibility is the problem with curcumin, this would seem to be the preferable form to take for a serious indication.   Good idea to check the LFTs if such doses are actually taken and discuss with your personal. hepatologist.. Dont know about the second one, very interesting.

HCC prevention is an interesting hypothesis, can only be speculated, but not totally unrealistic.

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Avatar_n_tn
4C : you are too kind, but we all know that already...I hope the new year finds you well.

I followed up on those cannabinoid-receptor refs a bit and it looks like we're safe and won't really have to start smoking joints on a daily basis for the sake of our livers (whew, that's a relief). Back in'05 when the CB1/CB2 receptors were first correlated with fibrosis progression, the report was pretty explicit that daily smoking was a non-no: "Patients with ongoing CHC should be advised to refrain from regular cannabis use". - from PMID-15892090. Ingestion of THC activates both the CB1 and CB2 receptors, with CB1 activation being directly related to fibrosis progression and CB2 to fibrosis reduction: ("we have strong evidence that the cannabinoid system directly affects liver fibrogenesis via activation of CB1 and CB2 receptors with opposite pro- and antifibrogenic effects, respectively" from the reply letter to a comment on that same PMID). So basically you want to bock CB1 and stimulate CB2  "Therefore, overall, our current experimental findings indicate dual opposite effects of cannabinoid receptors on liver fibrogenesis and suggest that selective
antagonists of CB1 and selective agonists of CB2 might open new prospects in the treatment of liver fibrosis."

All that's changed is that the effect of CB2 stimulation has been more conclusively linked to fibrosis regression, eg the Munoz-Luque'07 study above and PMID-17412522 "In keeping with these results, daily cannabis smoking is a risk factor for fibrosis progression in patients with chronic hepatitis C. In contrast, CB2 display antifibrogenic effects, by a mechanism involving reduction of liver fibrogenic cell accumulation. These results may offer new perspectives for the treatment of liver fibrosis, combining CB2 agonist and CB1 antagonist therapy.".

So, the long and the short of it is those poor cirrhotic lab rats didn't get to enjoy a few peaceful tokes after all, instead they had to endure "daily subcutaneous injection of the CB2 receptor selective agonist 3-(1’,1´-Dimethylbutyl)-1-deoxy-Δ8-THC" . It's a  hard life.

gooof : happy new year! how's the remodeling coming? are you thinking about adding curcumin to your supplement list?
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HR: If one were to swallow one pill of Compound A, with another pill of Compound B, would one have created a formulation? And if Compound A were polyunsaturated, would you expect that to negatively affect that formulation?

Willing - no remodeling going on currently - plenty of partially completed projects though. I bore easily, I'm afraid  :(  

Nice to see you - and yes I think there's a smidge of room in the cabinet for curcumin, especially since I'm always out of one or two at any given time

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Avatar_dr_m_tn
I would prefer the results of the human trials of resorption and the respective formulation.

I know what you mean by compound A and B and the polyunsaturated aspect. It is the obvious thought, but considering the dramatic importance of getting reliable absorption of curcumin, I would rather trust the human  tested formulation over a smart ( and possibly quite effective "selfformulation").
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I try not to talk much about my "selfformulation". After all - this is a family site ;)
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Avatar_f_tn
Can I get a translation for dummies that tells me which curcumin I should buy.  I've got the biopiperine added type right now but I understand that isn't the best.  I may just be tired but after reading this thread, I still don't know what to get. I hope I'm not being too dense.
Thank you if you can help.
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92903_tn?1309908311
I suggest you have a look at Curcu-Gel.
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Avatar_f_tn
Yep, thanks.  I have looked at that but just wanted to check because we don't have any money to waste.  My husband Joe has been using quite a few of these supplements for a while now.  He has cirrhosis ,low platelets, and a small non-bleeding varices, but has been looking and feeling quite well.  He seems less fatigued and has a little color in his face.  His mood has been better also.  :>)
Thanks again.
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I think that's the stuff. I think you can also find it under bio-curcumin or something. Find the curcu-gel and you'll see a manufacturer and distributor trade name. Then look for the best prices using each of those.
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Avatar_dr_m_tn
The human tested very high absorption preparation is sold by at least two companies here in the US, under the name super bio-curcumin at 400mg  and curcu-gel at 250mg. You might want to find both and then compare the per mg price to find the better deal. 2 or 3 of these a day are a serious dose. Be careful with these names, goofydad was not fully correct . They both use/contain  the BCM-95 preparation that was tested in India and independently  in the US in human volunteers measuring plasma concentrations at various time points - pharmakokinetics - and compared with the two older, less absorbable  preparations, with about equal results between the Indian and the US tests..
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Thanks to both of you for helping me refine my supplement list. I can see how a person can really waste money on some of these if you don't know all this info.  I know there is an element of risk anyway, but in our situation we have deemed it worth a try. I'm very appreciative of the help.
Have a lovely weekend,
Ev
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I am still trying to figure out why some believe taking an anti-inflammatory (i.e. curcumin) while on tox could hinder treatment.  Do the infected cells need to be inflamed for interferon to detect and attack?  Does the inflammation help "mark" RNA infected cells? I have researched this and either it is over my head, or I am looking in the wrong places.  
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yeah I don't understand it either and I'm really confused as to what I want to take while on tx. I hate to think about not having vitamin e for a year and other important vitamins like that. I also just read that vitamin D acts as an anti- inflamatory, yet none of my doctors told me not to take it. Also just read b12 can act as anti inflamatory so I guess none of that on my next go round.

I guess I'll give up alot of vitamins for a year to play it safe so I don't block the effect of the meds or hinder tx somehow. I did cut way back on vitamins during my last tx, but that was on my own. My doctor and NP had my "mega list" but didn't say that I need to stop, but as I mentioned, I cut back. Will you be taking calcium/magnesium on tx? I'd also like to continue the probiotics/prebiotics but because I relapsed I'm almost afraid to take anything on tx except the toxic cure.
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Avatar_f_tn
That is a great question, I have been taking a combo of 1 motrin and 1 tylenol p.m.  after injection. Find the motrin helps, my aching and nerve damage. I also have an un based theory that tylenol  makes ribo rash worse and even pre injections I would break out when I took it,infact it was these breakouts and a dermatologist test that told me I was HCV. .  I know this conversation was more natural based than chemical, so not sure if I should of started a new link.
thanks
Deb
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Just want to tell you thank you for taking the time to keep us abreast of new deelopments that DO have research!

I think it is so great that ANY research is going forward, as you said, with no end profit in mind. God bless all these devoted people!
I'm a firm believer that there are powerful healers in the natural creation, but you are so right that the "sellers" are neither knowledgable nor concerned as to the ramifications they create.

Anecdotally I had extreme ecezma (eczema) for weeks in my 20's, and they wanted to put me on high steroid dosages...but.to protect my liver, I choose to try poltaces of Golden Seal, or Solomon's Seal first...and with 2 days my grapefruit size raw oozing patches were dry and healed...with 5 days my skin was new, and smooth as a baby's bottom.

Some of these herbs have tremendous benefit, the important thing
is the part YOU are emphasizing here HR:

it is now to know the science, and have some real understandings of the compounds and/or purifications so as to also do no harm. (there's also a story about a guy I know who ate every mushroom in the forest...and you can guess the ending there....no more liver)

BTW, I just read this week that cascara is bad for the liver. Which a lot of folks take under different brands of Senecot or "natural laxative".

Do you know of a good general source list of herbs known by the research community to have some liver contraindication?????????

As one of the above responses indicates, It is rather hard for the ordinary consumer to ferret out which herbal info. regarding safety is anecdotal or erroneous vs.medically confirmed.

thanks, MaryB

BTW what dose Vit C do you consider sufficient, and do you recommend taking it alone due to iron absorption issues? thanks!!


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Wow,  my Rhemy told me to take Senecot!  Didn't know it was bad for the liver!  Thanks for the heads up.  

I am not on tx, but my Vit D tests showed I am really low. those of you that are couch potatoes need to watch this.  I just upped my Vit D to 800mg a day.  He told me to sleep outside. Yeah, right in this cold???   lol

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well, that's why I'm asking HR...it's hard to know sometimes what's what...there are a thousand herbs out there and many have not been scrutinized enough.
BTW I also had low vitamin D, but my GP gave me mega pills, and now my liver has twice what it should (it is stored there) and this is very bad for the liver, worse than not enough....so if you they tell you to mega dose (50,000 IU) be sure and test after one or 2 pills or it could backfire. Ten minutes in the sun is enough to make what you need....but I couldn't go into the sun due to my skin so I went along with the plan...it's best to understand this is the one of 2 vitamins that are cumulative in the liver and therefore must be viewed as a drug therapy not just a "friendly" little vitamin. A & D are important essential vitamins but they are not flushed out if you eat too much as are the water soluble vitamins...so be careful.   mary
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So, has anyone any solid source of curcumin? Besides the LEF one which I know about already. Interested in company and price and assumption is that it is the "right stuff". I've found all sorts of variations and products and just don't want to make a mistake.

please



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There was an extensive Vitamin D3 thread on the other side about two weeks ago, with all the many details on how to act. By Grandma.
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I was merely asking who has bought what where.

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I was merely asking who has bought circumen what where.

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Avatar_dr_m_tn
The formulation of curcumin with a far superior, human tested bioavailibility was apparantly invented and originally tested in India and is overall sold as bulk material to specific "vitamin companies"  around the world under the name of BCM-95.  This material is then encapsulated  sold unter local "brand names" and I am aware of two in the US, namely  "curcu-gel" and "superbiocurcumin" . There might be others, and if anyone can find the least expensive, that still contains the tested formulation, they should post it here, so that nobody wastes any money. Consideering the fact that bioavailibility is one major problem with curcumin use, it might be unwise to use an inferior product for an important purpose. This is not to say that larger doses of the earlier formulation might not be able to compensate by mass for the lack of absorption, but it seems that those doses would have to be quite substantial. Goofy has also found and posted/shown the Indian human absorption study and it might be useful to look at the details. It is fortunate that by adequante methods ( HPLC) the actual pharmakokinetics of this compound was shown, since these data are often lacking for potentially powerful plant derived substances, whose absorption and metabolism in humans is simply not known and often quite limited.
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Ok, so I got a litlle compulsive (what's new?) and ordered from www.betterlife.com after googling for awile using the "BCM-95" info and LEF's description of the "right stuff". Below are the prices I got ($5 shipping for everything, $75 gets free shipping):

Clinical Resveratrol 150mg - 30 caps  (Olympic Labs)
Quantity : 1 Unit Price : $9.77 Ext. Price : $9.77

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Vitamin D3 5,000 IU - 60 Caps  (Life Extension Foundation)
Quantity : 1 Unit Price : $6.99 Ext. Price : $6.99

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Super Bio-Curcumin 400 mg - 60 Vcaps (Life Extentsion Foundation)
Quantity : 1 Unit Price : $22.99 Ext. Price : $22.99

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Plan to take a D blood test before I take any of the vitamin D.
The reservatrol was just dangling there so I ordered it. The LEF Super Bio-Curcumin comes out to 41 cents a day ($12.32 a month). I can live with that.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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Here is the LEF article on the bio-availability of the BCM-95 that HR talks about.

http://tinyurl.com/3ya8qj

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don't know why I was emailed this by Medhelp
Might as well bump it.
It refreshed my mind on what I needed to buy for sure.
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