Vitamins A, D and B3

[sturmond_drang]

What's the deal with these supplements? Are we (hep C +) supposed to avoid them entirely, use them with certain restrictions, or what? Can't seem to find a definitive answer anywhere. Asked my GP if I should avoid B3, use it in moderation, or...? His reply: "I don't know" ... which I respect, because it's a lot better than, "yeah, whatever." And there are a lot of things he does know. Just not this thing, vitamins A, D and B3 in the context of hep C. Anybody?

[HCA]

How can anyone know?
Unless someone wants to waste a load of money taking two groups of Hepatitis C patients feeding one a paricular supplement and the other not and then monitoring them for a year it is all speculation.
If you take hepatitis out of the equation recent studies on supplements veer heavily toward there being no benefit .

[Rockerforlife]

DO NOT take vit A supp While on TX, or even if you have a damaged liver



YOU SAID:
recent studies on supplements veer heavily toward there being no benefit .

can you post this info?

[Marcia2202]

You can have your vitamin levels checked through blood tests.

Many people have Vitamin D deficiency and you would need to take a supplement. My doctor prescribed Vit D, even when I was on treatment.

Vitamin A and iron can be a problem, as the liver has a hard time metabolizing them, when one has a liver illness and should thus usually be avoided.

I never heard about B3 being a problem, but I am not sure about that. I am taking a multivitamin without A and without iron.... it contains most of the B's

[HCA]

There are numerous reports on this major study on the net.
I have pulled this one at random.
It was a big study and made headlines all over he world.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/health/2003592944_vitamins280.html

[Rockerforlife]

This dont seem like a study,just an article wrttten by a govt newspaper and it only mentions 3 supplements anyway.It also just says taking these 3 wont make you live longer,the idea is not to live longer ,its the quailty of life,not the length,

[Rockerforlife]

How many of the peolpe died in this so called study???/becaus ethe study was done on the premise



People are taking these supplements with the presumption that they will live longer or better. This shows they are not living longer and in fact may be at higher risk of dying."


be

[Rockerforlife]

i DO NOT believe for 1 second taking these 3 vitamins will KILL you like this artilce says.looks like someis trying to scare people into not taking something healthy

[HCA]

One of the largest and most authoritive studies ever undertaken,pooled data from 68 studies involving more than 232,000 people and published in The Journal Of The American Medical Association.Participating institutions were renowned hospitals and universities.
Yet to you 'This dont seem like a study,just an article'
It is obvious from your dismissive and seemingly uncomprehending comments that you have not processed the information and moreover you don't want to simply because it does not agree with your view of the world.

[Rockerforlife]

We all have our views,even you.

[Rockerforlife]

i still dont see the actual study ....just hear say ,where ia the papers?

.Participating institutions were renowned hospitals and universities.

Looks like a big pharma proganda story to me

[Bill1954]

The thing is, Rocker, the article cited above isn’t necessarily HCA’s view, or mine either for that matter; but the result of exhaustive, evidence based studies performed by researchers. If you feel differently, please feel free to provide supportive evidence to the contrary. But don’t bother with blather from non-reviewed articles such as commercial firms that sell product. That stuff doesn’t hold water here, and only takes up bandwidth in the forum--

Bill

[Bill1954]

Here’s the abstract from the JAMA:

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/297/8/842

Bill

[Rockerforlife]

Again,all this study says is taking these 3 vitamins wont make you live a long life,the  main idea of taking any vtitamin,or even food for that matter is not to live a long life...not to live to be  a hundred.....but to have quailty of life....this study is so meaning less...if you actually belive it when this study says taking them may kill you.. then you better.keep out of the sun(vitamin d) ..

[Rockerforlife]

it also says high doses


But the findings are consistent with evidence suggesting that some nutrients may be harmful at high doses or could interfere with the body's natural defenses, the researchers said.


this article is a joke

[Rockerforlife]

Vitamin C and selenium did not appear to have any effect on the risk of dying. But Gluud said that "the verdict is still out on those two."

[Rockerforlife]

children and adults who do not receive adequate vitamin D from sun exposure need at least 1000 IU/d vitamin D. Lack of sun exposure and vitamin D deficiency have been linked to many serious chronic diseases, including autoimmune diseases, infectious diseases, cardiovascular disease, and deadly cancers


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18550652?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=2&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed

[Rockerforlife]

In this report, the Health Council of the Netherlands advises the government on the best policies to achieve an adequate vitamin D supply for the Dutch population. People with a dark skin, those who spend little time outdoors, pregnant and lactating women, veiled women, elderly and children who do not receive vitamin D supplements or infant formula are at risk of vitamin D deficiency. To improve this, more consistent information about vitamin D should be provided. Spending at least 15 min a day outdoors in combination with a healthy diet generates sufficient vitamin D in children and adults with a light skin. All other groups need additional vitamin D from supplements (10-20 mug/day). Fortified foods can only provide part of the additional vitamin D needed.European Journal of Clinical Nutrition advance online publication, 22 July 2009; doi:10.1038/ejcn.2009.67.

PMID: 19623202 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19623202?ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

[nygirl7]

Rocker stop fighting with yourself and chill out - Bill and HCA provided very good hard fact information.  Don't get so over wrought that you keep posting and posting.

[Rockerforlife]

Sorry if i came across as fighting with my self to you and posting too much ,but i still believe this so called study is not very helpful in my eyes.it actually may harm people .this may cause some people to stop taking these supplements as most sother studies says it a great benefit to health and disease.How can taking vit C and Vit D kill???This is what this study says.anyway,this will be my last post on this topic,i am only against the study because is so vague and the words seem manipulated..agaim,sorry if i offended you,not done on purpose

[nygirl7]

I don't want you to get an ulcer Rock.....take it easy, take it easy.....that's all. You didn't offend me at all but I hate to see you get so worked up over something so trivial as this.

[Rockerforlife]

It may be from the headaces im having lately ,but guess what.this morning no headaces at all  and the buzzing sound in my brain didnt happen when i when to bed last nite....and i had dizzy spells the last few days ,bit this also seems to be gone.Im not upset or angry at all,at least if i came across this way i didnt mean too....thank God the buzzing sound is gone and the headaches and dizzy spells

[nygirl7]

Was there any chance you were still anemic Rock cause that was just what happened to me when my hemo was really low. I had no idea your head could hurt so much and fainting is actually painful........

Whatever it was I'm really glad for you that it's gone finally!

[Rockerforlife]

I wonder why i didn have these SX at all tru TX...im thinking the meds proberly are leaving my body all at once,i wonder if this will affect the SVR outcome,if most of the relapses happen within the first month after EOT,im thinking it should not matter anyway,im also wondering if lingering 6 month RIBA after TX has ony outcome on SVR...i cant  see this either as most relapses happen within 30 days....so i guess the faster the meds leave the better??

[Rockerforlife]

BTW...my vision is a lot clearer as i can see my words as i type now,my problem was i didnt want to re-read what i typed before i hit the send button as i found it hard to re-read.

[nygirl7]

You're just getting the pre-PCR jitters now Rocker........we all get them.  Believe me.  I still get them 2 1/2 years later.  It's very normal.

Probably your body was just reacting to all the changes going on in it trying to rid itself of the poisons and breathe some good clean air.  Makes sense to me that that is a lot of work to do and that is why you were feeling so poorly but that now it's over.

I do not believe it would affect your SVR one way or another. You might have been actually having some sort of IFN withdrawl or something like that.

[Rockerforlife]

Yes...the pre-PCR jitters are with me,on the 14 of this month i go for the PCR,should get the resuts a week later,this will be a major mile stone test,if im still UD 4 weeks EOT,this will lessen the grip of the 800 lb gorrilla of my back ,hes kinda heavy to carry around

[merryBe]

brief primer from my college days...
A & D are fat soluable vitamins. They are stored in the liver and in fat to some extent for later use...they are absorbed through the intestines mostly, although skin plays a role also

unlike water soluable vitamins such as B and C, which have a brief life span in the body..these are diluted by the bile, used, and the excess thrown off by the kidneys. Important difference since C is highly acidic and were excess not removes it would cause great damage, including kidney stones.
B is a complex of importance to the extent that B is manufactured in a healthy (I stress healthy gut) we need the B complex to make our food absorb-able but we have a colony of friendly bacterium living in our intestines that actually produce some for us, this in turn makes our complex amino acid proteins into absorbabe compounds. Between them, and our food supply we usually get adequate amounts of B, although age, certain diseases, and pour diets high in sugars and white flour can upset that balance. (while flour acts like glue...is actually used as a wallpaper glue, and it coats the cilia and kills our friendly bacterium. (cilia, or cilli... is pronounced sill-e-AH or sill-eye plural).
The average child absorbs 10-15% of his food..the average older person 5% or less...this depends on where on earth you live...cultures with higher roughage in their diets fair better than those who eat refined and overcooked or processed foods.

A & D are essential for sight, bone retention and bone building, and control of bacteria in the eyes ears nose and throat as well as helping the heart skin and many other functions.
In nature they occur together in foods. The ratio is 8-1  to 10-1 in all natural sources, ergo studies were done to see what happened when the ratio was altered. Some A or D can be absorbed alone, but together in the right ratio they are much more absorbable.
They also absorb better in the presense of calcium and magnesium, and viseversa those minerals absorb better in their presense. This research is why you now see on the shelves the A-D cal-MAg supplements...because they research proved they all work in synergy.

The difficulty of vitamin deficiency in years gone by was not such as issue because most people got outside for at least some time each day. The skin can produce enough D and A as well sometimes to get by on its own with only ten minutes of full sun exposure tru, HOWEVER age, and some medications such as steroids and chemo make that NOT a good idea.... skin can be overly taxed at times from age or certain meds, and then any exposure can be harmful. Normal production of melanin can be impaired, sun exposure can result in permanent brown spots or even carcinomas at certain times in immuno or drug compromised individuals.

Then too, now that half the worlds population lives in cities, the rate of diseases caused by these vitamins being deficient has skyrocked. Just google A or D deficiency to see what happens without enough. (of course Vitamin C was the first vitamin "discovered by man to be a problem"...and this is where the sea-faring Englishmen got the nickname Limey...they carried limes with them to prevent the dreaded scurvy! )

Vit A and C  also are more of an issue now because the freshness of our foods has been altered. It used to be eating a balanced diet gave everyone plenty of these vitamins, but overprocessing and depleted soils have changed that. Now they can actually grow carrots with virtually NO vitamin A, and tomatoes with NO vitamin C...anyone who grows their own food will know immediately what I'm speaking of.  If you bite into a freshly picked carrot, or corn, or vine riped just picked tomato it is like a revelation..

.their flavor in exponentially greater than those grown in worn out soil and kept for days or weeks in cold storage...that's because all the goodies are still there. Vitamins are not very stable and they diminish with each day of storage. Flavor is ergo effected by the foods shelf life and storage.
I mean, everyone knows a banana goes from green to yellow to ugly brown and smelly rotten pretty fast...yet they think their celery and tomatoes are NOT undergoing similar changes? That cerery a month old is as good as fresh??  what's up with that??
Also cooking destroys the water soluble vitamins, so stir fry or lightly stream but do not boil things to death.

For all these reasons, the dimished quality of foods, (not quantity, we've plenty of that...but quantity and quality aren't the same thing)
docs now precribe the vitamins to those shown to be low.
Many simple disease prosesses can be slowed by adequate amounts of the right nutrients.

However you MUST be careful NOT to overdo either A or D.
D is particularly treacherous when too much is given and it can cause liver failure in high enough doses.
Yet without enough of these vitamins one is more susceptible to a whole host of infections, not to mention bone loss, cognitive changes, pancreatic changes inclusive of loss of isles of langerhans, and a whole host of other anomalies.
This is why I believe the body so eagerly stores these vitamins, because they are necessary for normal metabolism and in winters (before the advent of modern refrigeration, storage, and food processing, humans would become deficient unless their body knew to store this stuff up for winter)
. The animal kingdom actually stored even huger quantities, which is why we can derive the vitamins so readily from cod, shark, or any other fish liver oil.  This is also why Admiral Perry and his expedition died however...on their trip to the north Pole they ate Polar Bear liver, extremely high in vitamin D, and it killed them.

It's not just that vitamins are essential, it's also that the correct AMOUNTS are essential.
Too much, or too little can each be harmful...very harmful.
Too bad there isn't a warning on vitamin labels..."this vitamin could be very beneficial to your health, but it could also kill you"...
perhaps only then will folks educate themselves first and THEN introduce appropriate and judicious dosing...proceed with caution...or in other words, a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

mb

[jdwithhcv]

polar bear liver - YUMMY - I had that for lunch!

[nygirl7]

.Just goes to show ya don't eat the polar bear......especially if that liver kills you ten years later living in the south...never know how long it's really gonna take do ya?

[orphanedhawk]

I only know about vitamin D being important for our bones and tx can effect our bones in a bad way.

I come from a family that doesn't break. My 90 year old mother falls out of bed~ nothing broken. I fell (or rather was thrown) from a horse numerous times over several years and never broke anything.
Then just a few months after tx, I broke my arm when I  missed the bed and hit the floor one night. Okay, graceful is something I'm not.
It turned out my D levels were very low.

My advise is to get some sun on your skin daily and possibly take supplements as well.
Good luck, OH

[chuckles333]

I doubt that any vitamin in a standard dosage will kill you. That being said, if a person eats a well balanced diet as we all (especially hep C patients) should, we would require a minimum of vitamin supplements. In northern climates there may not be enough sunshine available outside of summer months for the body to create the required amount of vitamin D. Vitamin D is synthesized in skin exposed to UVB radiation from 7-dehydrocholesterol, a derivative of cholesterol. This is a very important vitamin for your general well-being and is very important for the metabolization of calcium in your system. More osteoporosis is caused by a lack of vitamin D than a lack of calcium. It has been shown to prevent cancer and a whole host of other deseases. In the months of diminished sunshine and even in summer months, if you do not get 20 minutes per day of sunshine, it is reccomended that you take 1000 IU in a supplemental form. The Hillel Yaffe Medical Center has hypothesize that patients with HCV have a low level of vitamin D, and that by raising their vitamin D levels by adding it to their standard treament of Pegylated Interferon and Ribavirin, there will be an increase in their sustained virological response. They are or will be conducting clinical trials on this.