quercetin and URQ pain

[evangelin]

I tried giving Joe some quercetin after that article about it reducing viral load.  He has been on it for about a week and is having some pain in the liver region so have stopped using it for now.  It is the only new change so it could be the cause.  I just want to tell other people, especially cirrhotics, to be careful.
I am continuing with resveratrol even if it does up the viral load because a very bright person that used to be on this forum, explained to me why it was still beneficial.  My best simplification of his complicated answer is that it has to do with oxidation.  It is better to curb it with the antioxidants, such as resveratrol,NAC,ALA etc. even if it does increase the viral load somewhat becuase it will still help preserve your liver function.  It would not, under normal circumstances , bring it down enough to make a big difference anyway.  He has helped me remember to stick to HR's list which I have already seen proof of it improving Joe's condition.
No more quercetin for Joe until more is known.  He will be happy to see the pill pile reduced a bit.
Ev

[BoceprevirGal]

    I live in California, and we always have tons of wild dandelion geeens
growing everywhere.  I do usually tend to buy my dandelions greens in the organic produce section of my local market though, because it is smoother.
    I didn't even know chicory was a green though, thanks for the tip, I will go check it out :)
   A few years back, I used to "bleed out" when I had my period, ( I had no idea it was from low platelets from Hep C) and I would drink dandelion tea, and eat it in my salad, and it helped out almost immediately.
   Bitter greens are great for us Heppers~

[Hypathia]

All this talk about oranges, grapefruits, lettuce, etc etc.  Have any of you ever thought of eating BITTER greens.  And I don't mean kale or cabbage.  I mean the real thing -- chicory and dandelion.  I bought seeds for those in Italy, because there, they like all flavors, including bitter.  Americans are obsessed with sweet and salty flavors.  It's well known that dandelion and chicory are good for the liver.  Put them in salads or eat them as the sole ingredient in the salad.  Tastes great with olive oil and a bit of rice vinegar tossed.  I don't know if those kinds of seeds are available in the USA as Americans are so averse to bitter tasting foods.

[cliff819]

Although there is some good info such as resveratrol I would not give up on quercitin lower the dosage of q. There are several others that would be very advantageous. All hep c patients should use phosphotidicholine evryday 3x's a day (PPC) it is the single MOST BENEFICIAL thing he can do, also EGCG as found in teavigo is excellent. My suggestion to you is take ALL suggestions with a grain of salt and do your own research! no one cares more about Joe than you! I would also have his alkalinity tested. He should be slightly alkaline 7.365 cancer loves acid so if you do use OJ you need to offset it with a simple glass of water with 1-2 teaspoons of pure baking soda. I have kept hep c levels in normal range for 15 years and drink 12 beers everyday. Learn from those that have cured themselves not those that are searching or think they are a med pro. This includes drs! most of them tend to know the least. There are good ones again you have to determine
the facts and statistics for yourself. I have spent thousands of hours of research and when you are asking for blood tests your Dr is not familiar with we have a big problem in the med profession! Good luck

[_Matt_]

"5. Please remember that not every voice out there has a background in chemistry or nutrition. If I had a nickle for every time someone told me beet juice was good for my liver I'd be rich, for instance, and just the opposite is the truth. The beet is too high in sugar and in iron to be good for a sick liver. Same with liquorice, same with a lot of things folks think is good."


Degrees in Chemistry, Nutrition and Science, etc., are all useless to a person unless they apply that knowledge and see the results for themselves. I have no degree, yet I healed my parents by applying the knowledge available to everyone about Vegetables and Fruit. Red Beets are 1 of the things I used.

[_Matt_]

"2. The only disadvantage is that juicing leaves behind the fibers, which have also shown tremendous health benefits, and wasting these may not always be wisdom."

While it's true we need fibre to prevent things like colorectal problems... (fibre can only be obtained from plants).... juicing is great for someone who has a compromised immune system because you are separating the fibre which would normally have to be digested. Instead the juice goes straight into the bloodstream and directly to the liver to begin nourishing the body. The pancreas and other things don't have to work as much. The fibre is what you would have to eliminate from your body anyway on the toilet... Yet you are totally correct to say people should eat Vegetables and Fruit too. :)

These utube videos from the "juiceman" describe some of the things you've described here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-v4qM56FnM&feature=PlayList&p=3E6964EEE8C9AA20&index=0

Part 1 - Juice Daddy - Jay Kordich
Part 2 - Why is Juicing So Important?
Part 3 - The Juice That Saved My Life
Part 4 - Nature's Perfect Mineral Water
Part 5 - #1 Beta Carotene Drink in the World
Part 6 - Real Orange Juice
Part 7 - Best Liver Cleanser
Part 8a - Spark Plug of Life
part 8b

[_Matt_]

All I was doing was providing a way better alternative to "Quercetin" pills... If people here are against having orange juice, I don't know what to say. :) Orange juice is part of a healthy breakfast for many people. Everything isn't healthy if you overdo it.

[merryBe]

in honor of your post I just went and had a delicious tangerine...mm mm good.

I think you missed my points entirely. Look, I drank a gallon of fresh juice a day 30 years before you were even borne. I also have an organic garden twice your age, which has happily feed me since before I was your age. Add to this the fact that I taught anatomy, nutrition, and yes, took chemistry, and it might be we both have points to make.

1. Of course juices are loaded with good vitamins and minerals, many healing properties exist with them.

2. The only disadvantage is that juicing leaves behind the fibers, which have also shown tremendous health benefits, and wasting these may not always be wisdom.

3. While fruit juices can be beneficial it is well known that chemically all simple sugars, be they sucrose or fructose are all converted into glucose before the body uses them. The only difference is that the fructose takes slightly longer to metabolize, but both go into the blood rapidly and ergo both can cause Insulin spikes.

4. The reason an HCV person might want to limit high sugar items is because they so easily convert, AND if they are not immediately needed, then they are typically stored in the liver as fat. Any food not needed will also tend to convert and be stored, but sugar does so with such a fervor that it is the easiest way to overload your liver with excess fat. (fats and proteins also convert, but they are harder and slower to digest. Anyway snacking on sweet drinks of any kind can give a person NASH.
Don't take my word for it...read up on the glycemic indices and also on the high rates of endocrine dysfunction within the HCV community.

5. Please remember that not every voice out there has a background in chemistry or nutrition. If I had a nickle for every time someone told me beet juice was good for my liver I'd be rich, for instance, and just the opposite is the truth. The beet is too high in sugar and in iron to be good for a sick liver. Same with liquorice, same with a lot of things folks think is good.

6. What applies to a stage 1 liver and what applies to a stage 4 liver are two completely different things. For Joe, stage 4, he needs to watch his intake of certain remedies even though they may be fine for you.

7. It always helps me to remember that folks with 30 years on me might know a thing or 2 more than I do. You might want to check out what I'm saying therefore. Mind you, I'm not saying don't juice...and I think it's great that your dad cleared his ailments, but I'd say stick with that second formula, and maybe reduce the carrots there. It will still be sweet enough with half the carrots, and better for your health, trust me.
Also, too much daily carrot juice can harm your liver....did you know that???...carotene levels can be toxic, even life threatening to the liver. I kid you not.

mb

[merryBe]

well, I know how he feels!!  When you don't feel well to begin with, it's hard to give up the one thing left that gives you comfort...which for many of us is food. Honestly if I watched like a hawk everything all day every day, I'd go nuts...sugars, salts, fats, proteins, iron foods, acidic foods, yada yada yada...what's left besides lettuce.
I think you are going beyond the call of duty already and need a great big round of applause for all you do help him with.

As far as the bioflavoids go, I'd wonder after what you said about the chips if maybe other things could be the cause. My RQD pain was worse from holiday foods (high fat)  and also when I snack on salty things I can tell the difference.
Instead of keeping chips in the house I get around this by buying sunflower seeds, soaking them in salt water and roasting them myself. This way I can control the salt, and just barely salt them.
(store bought ones are way too salty).
This might also help if his cholesterol has gotton low as it will up your HDL and ergo increase seratonin.

In any case, the excess salt can increase liver pressure causing more inflammation, more internal bleeds, and increasing cranial pressures as well. You can't be the chip police true, but you could give him a healthy alternative. It takes so long to crack these that I get only a fraction of the calories a bag of chips would give, and yet I'm able to snack on these a whole hour...getting the munchies and still lovin my liver.

mb

[Bali05]

for what it`s worth , did the same thing after reading Quercetin article.

Stopped taking it when I saw my ALT going up.

[evangelin]

Thank you for all your good comments,
Joe is doing ok.  Do you remember HR mentioning an herb called Boswelia as being a very good anti -inflammatory for some people?  He only brought it up once that I'm aware of.  Joe was having quite a bit of pain in his joints and muscles after 15 months of failed TX.  I started him on Boswelia around Christmas time and the pain gradually improved over the course of a couple weeks.  That is the good news.
Next ,an article came out about quercetin possibly lowering the viral load.  I started him on 2 pills a day  (I can look up dosage later if anyone is interested)  and within a week or so, he was having the URQ pain that antibiotics and other medications have brought on in the past.  I quickly stopped the quercetin.  I won't be trying it again.  He has been off it for a few days now and he said that as of this morning, he can tell the URQ pain is receeding.  There is the possibility of it being something else but I seriously doubt it because we haven't changed anything else.  
Joe's diet is nothing to brag about these days.  I can't make him eat right and I get exhausted trying.  I put the vegies on the table but that's about all I can do.  He happily made himself a bowl of buttered grits this morning.  I am having to back off a lot because he just isn't really cooperating.  I got up to go to the bathroom at 2:00 A.M. and heard him in the living room with a crinkly bag of tortilla chips. :>(    The chips are in the house because we have a teenage son.  I can't be the chip gestapo.  I think Joe has trouble with denial and wanting to live the life he used to live without hcv and cirrhosis.  We have family members that have done the same with diabetes and you really can't stop them.  We all get to make are choices and live with them but our loved ones will live with them as well.  I haven't come to the point of giving up easily but he has about broke me of trying so hard.  I love him as always and will keep doing what I can.  He swallows the pills I give him and that is about all I can get from him right now.  He is getting a bad grade in diet and exercise.  If I start juicing for him, it will probably lead to great frustration on my part because I will go to all the trouble of juicing and find the glass still sitting there 2 hrs later.  Maybe we would be better off just enjoying the time we have left instead of fighting the battle between good  and evil food.
Take care,
Ev

[Mary4now]

My mom who is 87, probably genes, but she eats tons of fresh fruit, Has high sugar and has to tone down her consumption of fruit.  I think the big problem with intelligent beings such as us human beings is that we dont know the meaning of moderation.
I do believe if you consume allot of even fresh fruit with high sugar content you are going to have high sugar problems,  So eat greens, fruit, grains, clean protein in moderation.
m

[hopeforall108]

I seriously doubt juicing will cause serious harm, unless done in such amounts that it would cause a problem. But just keep in mind that the liver loves lemon and grapefruit, so add some if you are juicing. Just again keep in mind that grapefruit shouldn't be taken with certain meds. If you google the grapefruit verses certain meds thing, you'll find a list of meds that if you are taking you shouldn't drink or eat grapefruit.

[desrt]

Good points abot the OJ and type two diabetes. My neurologist stresses the importantance of this in dealing with my neuopathy.

Matt: This is why it's hard to take any of your juicing advice seriously. You are 100% incorrect in stating that fresh squeezed OJ is less harmful than soda or Gatorade. Might have more nutrients and trace minerals, but if your parents have active, ongoing HCV infections, they need to monitor their fasting glucose.

[_Matt_]

Here's another article you might find interesting:

http://www.liversupport.com/wordpress/2007/01/mandarin-oranges-to-prevent-liver-cancer/
Mandarin Oranges to Prevent Liver Cancer

by Nicole Cutler, L.Ac.

Oranges originated thousands of years ago in Asia, in the region from southern China to Indonesia. The mandarin orange is considered a native of south-eastern Asia and the Philippines. According to an interview with Philippines native Christine R. Altuna, “Mandarins are a part of my upbringing; they were always a comfort food when sick.” Oranges have extended to the western hemisphere to become an important part of a healthy diet. American culture’s claim that orange juice is the cornerstone to a healthy breakfast is proof.

Vitamin C
Instrumental in preventing colds, vitamin C is vital for the proper functioning of a healthy immune system. While most people know that oranges are full of vitamin C, they may not be aware that just one orange supplies 116.2% of the daily value of vitamin C. A water-soluble antioxidant, vitamin C disarms free radicals to prevent cellular damage. Cancer is a potential result of free radical damage, particularly in areas of the body where cellular turnover is rapid, such as the digestive system. This is why the intake of vitamin C is associated with a reduced risk of colon cancer, in particular.

Free radicals also oxidize cholesterol. After being oxidized, cholesterol sticks to arterial walls, impeding blood flow and increasing the risk of heart attack or stroke. This build-up of fatty deposits is also a precursor to fatty liver disease. Since vitamin C helps neutralize free radicals, it can also prevent the oxidation of cholesterol that increases fatty deposits in the blood.

Orange Peel and Pulp
In addition to vitamin C, the revered orange is full of additional health-promoting substances. Previous research studies agree that the healing properties of oranges have been associated with a wide variety of phytonutrient compounds. These phytonutrients include:

· Citrus flavanones (types of flavonoids that include the molecules hesperetin and naringenin)
· Anthocyanins
· Hydroxycinnamic acids
· Polyphenols

When these phytonutrients are evaluated in combination with its high vitamin C content, an orange’s antioxidant properties become even more significant. But it is yet another flavanone in oranges, the herperidin molecule, which has been singled out in phytonutrient research on oranges. Arguably the most important flavanone in oranges, herperidin has been shown in animal studies to lower both high blood pressure and cholesterol, and to have strong anti-inflammatory properties. Most of this phytonutrient is found in the peel and inner white pulp of the orange, rather than its juicy pulp. It was previously believed that the majority of an orange’s health benefits were sapped when these compounds are removed by the processing of oranges into juice.

Beyond the Pulp and Rind
Two new studies from Japan have recently demonstrated that a specific orange’s rewards go well beyond its solid parts. In one of these studies, the juice from the mandarin orange demonstrated its most powerful result: keeping Hepatitis-C infected patients from developing liver cancer.

The orange has unusually high levels of an antioxidant known as beta-cryptoxanthin. When beta-cryptoxanthin is painted on mice with skin cancer, it reduced tumors significantly and, when fed to rats with colon cancer, reduced the development of tumors. In a year-long study, 30 Hepatitis C patients who drank 190 milliliters of mandarin orange juice fortified with extra beta-cryptoxanthin failed to develop liver cancer. These findings are significant when compared with 8.9 percent of 45 Hepatitis C patients who did not drink the juice and developed liver cancer. “This is very cheap, and it seems to work,” says Hoyoku Nishino of Kyoto Prefectural University of Medicine, who led the research that is slated to continue for four more years.

A dated study published in the September 2003 issue of Cancer Epidemiology, Biomarkers and Prevention reviewed dietary and lifestyle data collected from 63,257 adults in Shanghai, China. Participants were followed for 8 years, during which time 482 cases of lung cancer were diagnosed. Those eating the most cryptoxanthin-rich foods showed a 27% reduction in lung cancer risk. Some other foods that are high in crytpoxanthin include pumpkin, corn, papaya, red bell peppers, tangerines and peaches.

In a recent epidemiological study by scientists at the National Institute of Fruit Tree Science in Japan, scientists surveyed 1,073 people in a Japanese town noted for its high consumption of mandarin oranges. The researchers found certain chemical markers in the subjects’ blood that are associated with a lower risk of several health problems, including liver disease, atherosclerosis (hardening of the arteries) and insulin resistance (a condition associated with diabetes).

The reasons for eating oranges and drinking their juice have escalated to new heights. While finding mandarins or their juice might be challenging outside of the Asian market, related citrus varieties such as oranges or tangerines demonstrate similar health benefits. With new research focusing on the health benefits of oranges, people with liver concerns who are hopeful of warding off liver cancer have every reason to make these delicious fruits a dietary staple.

[_Matt_]

"Matt...what the "juiceman" fails to tell people is that too much juice can contribute to diebetes just like too much pop or candy can. It's all sugar."

My Family has been juicing for over 10-years and nobody in my family is ever going to get diabetes from fresh Apples or Oranges... ;-) The sugar in pop and candy is much defferent than the sugar you get from a fresh Orange or an Apple.

However... I imagine that drinking Orange juice bought from the store that is loaded with extra sugar could contribute to Diabetes for some people, just like candy bars, pop and other things that also have lots of refined sugar added.

The "juiceman" has at least 1 recipe he says may be good for Diabetes and Hypoglycemia:

"Blood Sugar Balancer"
(May be helpful for diabetes and hypoglycemia)
3 carrots
2 lettuce leaves
1 handful string beans
4 brussels sprouts
2 apples

I agree partly about the acidic condition you mention... I know a bit about that since I healed my Dad of bleeding ulcers with Green Cabbage juice(mixed with other veggies). Here's the recipe I used from the same booklet the one above came from:

"Cabbage Cocktail"
(Proven in research to heal peptic ulcers)
1/2 green cabbage
2 stalks celery
1/2 tomato or
3 carrots

When my Dad had severe heartburn 24/7 and bleeding ulcers it wouldn't have been wise to give him orange juice because of the acidity, and I doubt he could have tolerated it anyway. Yet after he was healed of the ulcers he could enjoy the benefits of fresh Orange juice.

Here's some new research describing how Vegetables & Fruit with antioxidants such as Vitamin-C may help diabetic patients:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090609122232.htm

Here's another article about Mandarin Oranges that may reduce the risk for Liver Cancer in people who have viral hepatitis. They also might help with insulin resistance.

Mandarins 'cut liver cancer risk'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/5333898.stm

[merryBe]

one I am watching with interest is fuzheng huayu...not available yet but soon maybe.

[merryBe]

You know, I've still got some issues with the NAC...I raised them with HR remember...

it's not just about the sulfur issue, although thats major....our bodies don't do well with excess sulfur...but it's also about clearance issues.
There are more things than we'd care to know about what can become toxic when liver function is impaired...NAC is one known to not clear well from the diseased liver...for what that's worth.  That's kinda why I haven't jumped on every so called antiinflammatory antifibrotic...one has to look at the WHOLE picture, and the landscape changes for those in latter stage disease..   say hi to Joe for me.  Wonder is a trial of no NAC might be worth a try.

[merryBe]

I know you know this, but it seems like sam-e, melatonin, milk thistle, curcumin , reservatol as you mentioned, and a few others are far safer choices for anti-inflammatory improvements than the quercetin or acidic products.

How is Joe overall these days??
Have you tried lowering the caloric count for each meal?
For me, it seems the richer the foods the more issues with inflammation and it became obvious over the holidays that several small meals is better than a couple of large ones.

Of course HR warned about this years ago, but who want to go there on Christmas.
My liver says no, but my gravy sensors all say yes, yes, yes. : o

[merryBe]

the thing that concerns me is twofold here. One, the chemistry, two overshooting.

back in the day, Linus Pauling did a lot of research so it from that era I draw from, any acid, can be an antioxidant but can also oxidate if you overshoot...dose too heavily.
Acidic overdose can lead to cystitis and other systemic issues.

Add to this the iron issues associated with HCV, namely that any acidic compound will increase the absorption of iron, especially heme iron but non-heme as well, and you could have a double whammy in reverse. Meaning you could further layer his liver with iron, and cause rather than prevent Hepatic cancer in the process.

There were some discussions of C and bioflavoids in here a while back, and the case for conservatively adding C etc is there, but so are some cautionaries. Obviously as liver deteriorates kidneys can be affected as well.

My way around this has been to take the acidic foods alone. I still eat oranges but not with any meat (heme) products.

Matt...what the "juiceman" fails to tell people is that too much juice can contribute to diebetes just like too much pop or candy can. It's all sugar.
Of course if he told people the truth he wouldn't sell as many machines.
I juiced for years but would caution folks to choose a high vegetable to fruit ratio to avoid apples, carrots, too high in sugars... avoid any high sugar drinks regardless of source...this as liver patients are already more at risk of developing diebetes by virtue of the HCV attacking the endocrine system, and especially while on treatment due to the Interferon levels as well.

mb

[_Matt_]

Sorry, wrong forum. I meant to post that message is this forum:

http://www.medhelp.org/forums/Living-With-Hepatitis-C/show/681

I've done some study and have found supplements can be very dangerous or harmful depending on the dosage. Yet having a glass of Real Fresh Orange Juice everyday isn't harmful. Among other benefits besides getting some "Quercetin"... Orange Juice will help to increase natural Interferon production in your body because of the active Vitamin C.

Of course, if you drank 5-6 glasses then you'd probably feel sick... that would be overdoing it, yet one glass or half a glass everyday is an excellent way to get vital nutrients, enzymes, vitamins, minerals, etc., especially for someone with a compromised immune system. Juicing allows the body to absorb the vital nutrients, enzymes, etc., more easily directly through the blood stream without having to be digested. All the healing substances get delivered straight to the Liver and filter through helping to heal damage.

Maybe you could try freshly made Orange Juice instead of "Quercetin pills" and see how that helps? Just a friendly suggestion. My whole family loves Real Orange Juice freshly made with a juice machine. Tastes nothing like store bought orange juice. I always cut the orange part off with a knife leaving on all that white pulp we normally try to remove when we eat an orange... then the drink tastes more creamy and adds much more nutritional value.

This is a very gentle way of delivering vital nutrients throughout the body, whereas vitamin pills are not so gentle and can cause harm. I think we can trust nature to provide the correct dose of "Quercetin" our bodies need when we eat an Orange, or drink some freshly made orange juice.

[_Matt_]

Another delicious drink with natural Quercetin in its best, purest form is fresh Real Orange Juice made with a juice machine.

Those videos on juicing made by "Jay the Juiceman" that I posted in the forum explain juicing in a beautiful way. Anyone who watches them would learn something new... His family is so kind and warm, they are amazingly wonderful smart people who love sharing their wisdom.

Wishing you and your Husband all the very best.

Matt