Aa
Clarification Requested
I have been dating this wonderful woman for a few weeks now and things are beginning to get a little more serious. We both have just started dating again after our divorces. A couple of days ago she revealed to me that she had HSV-2 (genital), she has had it for almost 20 years, hasn’t had an outbreak in 8 years and her former husband of 16 years has never contracted it from her. She said that they only used condoms for the first 2 years of their marriage.
Well, I’ve been doing a lot of research since being told, trying to educate myself so that I can make an informed decision regarding safer sex practices. There seems to be a lot of conflicting information out there even within the medical community. What I am asking of the forum is to read this and tell me if I’ve got this right.
The fact that she hasn’t had an outbreak in 8 years doesn’t mean that shedding doesn’t still happen, and that there is still a possibility that I can contract HSV even if there are no symptoms?
She is not taking antiviral medication, and therefore I have read that the chances of a male contracting HSV from a female, when there is no outbreak or symptoms is approximately 4% if they have unprotected sex?
That, while still possible, it is rare to contract HSV-2 orally if I perform oral sex on her, unless of course there are symptoms or an outbreak?
She has stated that every outbreak she has had has always been at the initial site of contact, her left labia. But I understand that she could very well have viral shedding essentially anywhere on her lower extremities?
I have also read that an individual who has HSV-1 (Oral) reduces, to some extent, the chances of contracting HSV-2 (genital) because they already have some antibodies in their system?
If 2 people have HSV-2 (genital) they cannot re-infect one another and therefore safer sex practices (condoms) are not really necessary?
Does viral shedding decrease with the length of time that someone has HSV-2, she said that she hasn’t had an outbreak in 8 years and that her former husband is still HSV-free, which would lead me to believe that the chances of contracting HSV-2 from her would actually be less than the 4% listed above?
Last one…since a condom only protects what is covered, what measures can be taken to protect those areas not covered, i.e. the base of the penis and groin area….I’ve heard saran wrap, cutting a hole in a dental dam and sliding it down after putting on a condom...is there anything less….insulting, for a lack of a better term, that can be done without making the individual feel uncomfortable?
Thank you for any insight you can provide…
Well, I’ve been doing a lot of research since being told, trying to educate myself so that I can make an informed decision regarding safer sex practices. There seems to be a lot of conflicting information out there even within the medical community. What I am asking of the forum is to read this and tell me if I’ve got this right.
The fact that she hasn’t had an outbreak in 8 years doesn’t mean that shedding doesn’t still happen, and that there is still a possibility that I can contract HSV even if there are no symptoms?
She is not taking antiviral medication, and therefore I have read that the chances of a male contracting HSV from a female, when there is no outbreak or symptoms is approximately 4% if they have unprotected sex?
That, while still possible, it is rare to contract HSV-2 orally if I perform oral sex on her, unless of course there are symptoms or an outbreak?
She has stated that every outbreak she has had has always been at the initial site of contact, her left labia. But I understand that she could very well have viral shedding essentially anywhere on her lower extremities?
I have also read that an individual who has HSV-1 (Oral) reduces, to some extent, the chances of contracting HSV-2 (genital) because they already have some antibodies in their system?
If 2 people have HSV-2 (genital) they cannot re-infect one another and therefore safer sex practices (condoms) are not really necessary?
Does viral shedding decrease with the length of time that someone has HSV-2, she said that she hasn’t had an outbreak in 8 years and that her former husband is still HSV-free, which would lead me to believe that the chances of contracting HSV-2 from her would actually be less than the 4% listed above?
Last one…since a condom only protects what is covered, what measures can be taken to protect those areas not covered, i.e. the base of the penis and groin area….I’ve heard saran wrap, cutting a hole in a dental dam and sliding it down after putting on a condom...is there anything less….insulting, for a lack of a better term, that can be done without making the individual feel uncomfortable?
Thank you for any insight you can provide…
Not the abstract - the actual study has terrific charts in it that break it down by age, gender and ethnicity. I only posted the link to the abstract - it's up to you to find the actual study to access the rest of it.
grace
grace
Hi Grace,
Thanks for the info. Thing is, the report didn't give me the granularity I was looking for. They listed the age bracket as 14-49, which makes it meaningless as far as I'm concerned: A 49 year old is a lot more likely to have been exposed than a 14 year old. It would be interesting to see what the results were in, say the 40-49 y/o bracket. As you pointed out, they probably picked the age range they did in an attempt to skew the results.
Thanks for the info. Thing is, the report didn't give me the granularity I was looking for. They listed the age bracket as 14-49, which makes it meaningless as far as I'm concerned: A 49 year old is a lot more likely to have been exposed than a 14 year old. It would be interesting to see what the results were in, say the 40-49 y/o bracket. As you pointed out, they probably picked the age range they did in an attempt to skew the results.
Bill4398, all good points. Sorry, I thought I was addressing the OP. :( I don't own a T.V., so falling off my roof to fix a T.V. antenna won't happen with me. :o) But good points nevertheless.
And I've dated some pretty crappy drivers in my day, so the car accident thing is certainly a big one.
Another good point: HSV usually is the least of your problems once you understand the risks, know the precautions to take to avoid it, and then rev up the relationship. There is so much other stuff involved in relating to another person on an emotional level.
I wish I could say that herpes was the reason none of my relationships worked out, but in fact there was always some other much bigger issue. The biggest for me are often differences in communication skills and simply having different goals with respect to the relationship. Several of the men I dated that didn't work out into LTRs have often called me weeks or months later wanting to hook up just for sex. So clearly the herpes was not the issue. It usually isn't, for most people. Really, once you put it in perspective, you realize what a small thing it is.
I guess that's no consolation if you're in that group that is ignorant or you're a germ-phobic or whatever, but relationships are difficult whether somebody has herpes or not.
And I've dated some pretty crappy drivers in my day, so the car accident thing is certainly a big one.
Another good point: HSV usually is the least of your problems once you understand the risks, know the precautions to take to avoid it, and then rev up the relationship. There is so much other stuff involved in relating to another person on an emotional level.
I wish I could say that herpes was the reason none of my relationships worked out, but in fact there was always some other much bigger issue. The biggest for me are often differences in communication skills and simply having different goals with respect to the relationship. Several of the men I dated that didn't work out into LTRs have often called me weeks or months later wanting to hook up just for sex. So clearly the herpes was not the issue. It usually isn't, for most people. Really, once you put it in perspective, you realize what a small thing it is.
I guess that's no consolation if you're in that group that is ignorant or you're a germ-phobic or whatever, but relationships are difficult whether somebody has herpes or not.
Hi WB,
Good points all, though I think you are mixing me up with the OP... you seemed to be answering both of us interchangeably. *I* didn't make H2 an issue in my relationship with my last partner. She, like most of us, had other issues that dwarfed it. I think what the OP needs to realize is that we take all kinds of risks when pursuing a relationship, even short term: I've had relationship partners literally put my life in danger, something that herpes would never do. you can die or be injured in a car crash, get shot by a crazy ex-husband, get cancer from 2nd hand cigarette smoke, get bitten by her dog, fall off her roof fixing her TV antenna...you name it. And then, you have all kinds of financial and emotional risks. Again, we just have to evaluate these risks and then ask ourselves is the risk worth it. I found that I was willing to risk H2 for my last partner, but the OTHER risks involved in that relationship were too high... so, here I am.
Good points all, though I think you are mixing me up with the OP... you seemed to be answering both of us interchangeably. *I* didn't make H2 an issue in my relationship with my last partner. She, like most of us, had other issues that dwarfed it. I think what the OP needs to realize is that we take all kinds of risks when pursuing a relationship, even short term: I've had relationship partners literally put my life in danger, something that herpes would never do. you can die or be injured in a car crash, get shot by a crazy ex-husband, get cancer from 2nd hand cigarette smoke, get bitten by her dog, fall off her roof fixing her TV antenna...you name it. And then, you have all kinds of financial and emotional risks. Again, we just have to evaluate these risks and then ask ourselves is the risk worth it. I found that I was willing to risk H2 for my last partner, but the OTHER risks involved in that relationship were too high... so, here I am.
Thank you to all who have responded....I did leave out my status....I am positive for HSV-1 (oral) and negative for HSV-2...
the NHANES studies do list it by gender and ethnicity. http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/296/8/964 is the link to the abstract to the last paper Dr Xu put together from the nhanes 4 info but she stopped after 50 years of age for some reason in this one ( the last one they didn't - perhaps the numbers were too scarey to commit to paper?he he he ) You can look up Xu's work on pubmed to find the article that covered nhanes 3. It's in the tables in the papers that the info is the easiest to view.
grace
grace
That's probably about right. HSV1 is higher than 60% once you get up into the older groups, too.
I don't think it matters much exactly what the numbers are. You just need to understand what you're dealing with. All things being equal, and you like this particular woman for other qualities, bailing on her because of herpes isn't very smart. What happens if the next one has it? And the one after that? What happens if the next one doesn't know she has it, and you two start a relationship? What happens if the next one doesn't have it, and you're into her, but she's not into you? See where I'm going with this?
None of the men I've dated have ever done any "research" about herpes. Some of them were already pretty savvy about it (prior partners with it, know people with it, or whatever), but the majority of them simply took the attitude, what do we need to do to stay safe - and we went from there. And this was in dating relationships where neither one of us knew whether it would be "long term" or not. My biggest problem with my partners has been that they want to stop using condoms sooner than than I do! They have been negative for herpes, but they understand how to put it in perspective. Maybe because I date older guys, like in the 50-60 age range. They've been around the block, they've been through relationships - good ones and ****** ones - and they just don't seem bent out of shape about it.
You don't have any higher risk of getting herpes from this woman if you use precautions than if she were on the pill. My guess is that you wouldn't hesitate to nail a woman who told you she was on the pill - and you wouldn't be on the internet doing research about the efficacy of the pill. You accept what you've heard about how the pill works, you understand that there is science behind it, and you trust that your partner is using the medication correctly.
It's the same with antiviral medication+condoms. If you trust your partner to use the medication appropriately and you use condoms, your risk of contracting herpes is no higher than unprotected sex with a woman on the pill.
The thing about relationships and dating these days is that the majority of us get started in sexual relationships before we ever know the person well enough to know if they can be our long-term partner. Unless you're one of those weirdos that doesn't screw until your wedding day, my guess is that this also includes you. That means there is some risk in being a sexual person these days. As I said above, the only way to avoid herpes is to be abstinent. If you can't wrap your mind around the small risk involved understanding the science behind how prevention works, then you need to bail on her and let her find someone who has a different perspective on it.
Good luck.
I don't think it matters much exactly what the numbers are. You just need to understand what you're dealing with. All things being equal, and you like this particular woman for other qualities, bailing on her because of herpes isn't very smart. What happens if the next one has it? And the one after that? What happens if the next one doesn't know she has it, and you two start a relationship? What happens if the next one doesn't have it, and you're into her, but she's not into you? See where I'm going with this?
None of the men I've dated have ever done any "research" about herpes. Some of them were already pretty savvy about it (prior partners with it, know people with it, or whatever), but the majority of them simply took the attitude, what do we need to do to stay safe - and we went from there. And this was in dating relationships where neither one of us knew whether it would be "long term" or not. My biggest problem with my partners has been that they want to stop using condoms sooner than than I do! They have been negative for herpes, but they understand how to put it in perspective. Maybe because I date older guys, like in the 50-60 age range. They've been around the block, they've been through relationships - good ones and ****** ones - and they just don't seem bent out of shape about it.
You don't have any higher risk of getting herpes from this woman if you use precautions than if she were on the pill. My guess is that you wouldn't hesitate to nail a woman who told you she was on the pill - and you wouldn't be on the internet doing research about the efficacy of the pill. You accept what you've heard about how the pill works, you understand that there is science behind it, and you trust that your partner is using the medication correctly.
It's the same with antiviral medication+condoms. If you trust your partner to use the medication appropriately and you use condoms, your risk of contracting herpes is no higher than unprotected sex with a woman on the pill.
The thing about relationships and dating these days is that the majority of us get started in sexual relationships before we ever know the person well enough to know if they can be our long-term partner. Unless you're one of those weirdos that doesn't screw until your wedding day, my guess is that this also includes you. That means there is some risk in being a sexual person these days. As I said above, the only way to avoid herpes is to be abstinent. If you can't wrap your mind around the small risk involved understanding the science behind how prevention works, then you need to bail on her and let her find someone who has a different perspective on it.
Good luck.
I remember reading on the internet somewhere that 30% of white women over 30 are seropositive for H2. The number is slightly lower for men... maybe 25%. I'd post the link, but I can't find it. In any case, it would be interesting to see a table of H2+ rates by gender and age bracket.
It's interesting that the OP doesn't mention his own herpes status in his post.
If this is truly a "wonderful woman" and you think you might want to get to know her and explore a relationship with her, you both need a full panel STD screen so you each know what you are dealing with.
It's great that you're looking to get educated about herpes, but keep in mind that the majority of people with HSV2 don't even realize they have it. That means they have no symptoms, or they have symptoms that are so mild that they don't realize it's herpes. You could be in that group of people, and until you get tested, or if you have already been tested, you don't really know.
If this is truly a "wonderful woman" and you think you might want to get to know her and explore a relationship with her, you both need a full panel STD screen so you each know what you are dealing with.
It's great that you're looking to get educated about herpes, but keep in mind that the majority of people with HSV2 don't even realize they have it. That means they have no symptoms, or they have symptoms that are so mild that they don't realize it's herpes. You could be in that group of people, and until you get tested, or if you have already been tested, you don't really know.
It's been said around here before, but I think it bears repeating that if you have slept with at least 4 women in your life, you have probably already been with someone who has HSV2. That's how prevalent it is - 25% of people out there have it. 90% of those people don't even know it, so they can't sit you down and tell you they have it and thereby can't protect you.
Herpes is out there. It's much easier to find herpes out there than a decent relationship, as far as I'm concerned. The only way to avoid it completely is to be abstinent. Upwards of 60% of people have some type of herpes. If you are in the "older" age ranges, like in your 40s or older, it's probably closer to 80% of people are walking around with some kind of herpes.
The only way to avoid it completely is to have your potential partner get tested for it. If they are positive, you would have to tell them to take a hike.
If their test is negative, tell them you will refrain from a sexual relationship with them for 3 months, then ask them to get tested again. In the meantime, tell them they can't be sexual with anybody else during that 3 months, and then if their test comes up positive, tell them you'll be dumping them because you can't "take the chance."
And if their test is negative at the end of the 3 months, well, you better hope that girl still wants to spend time with you after all that tap dancing. Good luck with that.
That's truly the only way to avoid herpes without being abstinent.
Herpes is out there. It's much easier to find herpes out there than a decent relationship, as far as I'm concerned. The only way to avoid it completely is to be abstinent. Upwards of 60% of people have some type of herpes. If you are in the "older" age ranges, like in your 40s or older, it's probably closer to 80% of people are walking around with some kind of herpes.
The only way to avoid it completely is to have your potential partner get tested for it. If they are positive, you would have to tell them to take a hike.
If their test is negative, tell them you will refrain from a sexual relationship with them for 3 months, then ask them to get tested again. In the meantime, tell them they can't be sexual with anybody else during that 3 months, and then if their test comes up positive, tell them you'll be dumping them because you can't "take the chance."
And if their test is negative at the end of the 3 months, well, you better hope that girl still wants to spend time with you after all that tap dancing. Good luck with that.
That's truly the only way to avoid herpes without being abstinent.
Hi,
2 years ago, I was in almost the same situation you are in now, so I suppose I can provide some insight. Search on my user ID for a thread I started a couple of months ago.
First, get tested for HSV2. If you are positive, then all this is a non-issue. It's my understanding that you two would not cross infect each other.
If it's determined that she has it and you do not, find out if she's on suppressive medication (valtrex, acyclovir, etc...). I understand that'll cut the transmission rate in half. If I were you, I'd ask that she start taking it if she isn't. Condoms will cut the transmission rate in half again, supposedly: That part of the protection is up to you.
I would not use saran wrap. IMO that'll degrade your partner and it's clumsy as hell, probably. I've never tried it and don't want to.
What you really have to ask yourself is, is the risk worth the reward. If you pursue a sexual relationship with this woman, there is a chance you will become infected. Not a big chance, but a chance. IMO the risk is worth it for a long term relationship, not worth it for a short term fling. That's just my opinion. That said, you might want to talk to her about what kind of relationship you two want to have. You have to ask *yourself* if H2 is something you are comfortable with as a take-away if the relationship fails. However, if you choose to pursue this I think you may find, as I did, that H2 is one of the lesser relationship issues you'll have to deal with.
The last thing I'll say is, you have a real honorable gal, telling you ahead of time and giving you a chance to think all this through: She has demonstrated that she'll put your long term best interests ahead of her short-term desires. Whatever you do, give her the same respect in return.
Good luck.
2 years ago, I was in almost the same situation you are in now, so I suppose I can provide some insight. Search on my user ID for a thread I started a couple of months ago.
First, get tested for HSV2. If you are positive, then all this is a non-issue. It's my understanding that you two would not cross infect each other.
If it's determined that she has it and you do not, find out if she's on suppressive medication (valtrex, acyclovir, etc...). I understand that'll cut the transmission rate in half. If I were you, I'd ask that she start taking it if she isn't. Condoms will cut the transmission rate in half again, supposedly: That part of the protection is up to you.
I would not use saran wrap. IMO that'll degrade your partner and it's clumsy as hell, probably. I've never tried it and don't want to.
What you really have to ask yourself is, is the risk worth the reward. If you pursue a sexual relationship with this woman, there is a chance you will become infected. Not a big chance, but a chance. IMO the risk is worth it for a long term relationship, not worth it for a short term fling. That's just my opinion. That said, you might want to talk to her about what kind of relationship you two want to have. You have to ask *yourself* if H2 is something you are comfortable with as a take-away if the relationship fails. However, if you choose to pursue this I think you may find, as I did, that H2 is one of the lesser relationship issues you'll have to deal with.
The last thing I'll say is, you have a real honorable gal, telling you ahead of time and giving you a chance to think all this through: She has demonstrated that she'll put your long term best interests ahead of her short-term desires. Whatever you do, give her the same respect in return.
Good luck.
The fact that she hasn’t had an outbreak in 8 years doesn’t mean that shedding doesn’t still happen, and that there is still a possibility that I can contract HSV even if there are no symptoms?
-correct
She is not taking antiviral medication, and therefore I have read that the chances of a male contracting HSV from a female, when there is no outbreak or symptoms is approximately 4% if they have unprotected sex?
- correct
That, while still possible, it is rare to contract HSV-2 orally if I perform oral sex on her, unless of course there are symptoms or an outbreak?
- correct
She has stated that every outbreak she has had has always been at the initial site of contact, her left labia. But I understand that she could very well have viral shedding essentially anywhere on her lower extremities?
- close. When she has an ob she is shedding from the actual lesion as well as from the anogenital area itself ( think everything covered with pubic hair from the front all the way back to and including her anal area ). She also sheds periodically from that area in between obvious lesions ( not just from the area she usually gets ob's at ).
I have also read that an individual who has HSV-1 (Oral) reduces, to some extent, the chances of contracting HSV-2 (genital) because they already have some antibodies in their system?
- not anything significantly. What it does do is make it more likely that if you did contract hsv2, your initial ob would be milder and perhaps even go unnoticed.
If 2 people have HSV-2 (genital) they cannot re-infect one another and therefore safer sex practices (condoms) are not really necessary?
- correct - as long as all other std's have been ruled out of course
Does viral shedding decrease with the length of time that someone has HSV-2, she said that she hasn’t had an outbreak in 8 years and that her former husband is still HSV-free, which would lead me to believe that the chances of contracting HSV-2 from her would actually be less than the 4% listed above?
- not that we are aware of. We have info that shows that shedding stays pretty much constant from 1 year of being infection to 10 years of being infected. we are still waiting for a study that looked at shedding in folks infected for more than 10 years but we aren't expecting it to be significantly less to be honest.
Last one…since a condom only protects what is covered, what measures can be taken to protect those areas not covered, i.e. the base of the penis and groin area….I’ve heard saran wrap, cutting a hole in a dental dam and sliding it down after putting on a condom...is there anything less….insulting, for a lack of a better term, that can be done without making the individual feel uncomfortable?
- no reason to wrap yourself up in latex head to toe for sex - just no pleasure in that. Your risk is already low in general. Personally I'd rather have my partner take suppressive therapy than I would be worried about trying to keep all body parts covered in latex - especially in a new relationship but that's just my own 2 cents. I think the more you make out of trying to cover all the body parts in latex - the more emphasis it puts on being infected in the first place.
Have you been tested yet to know your own status?
grace
-correct
She is not taking antiviral medication, and therefore I have read that the chances of a male contracting HSV from a female, when there is no outbreak or symptoms is approximately 4% if they have unprotected sex?
- correct
That, while still possible, it is rare to contract HSV-2 orally if I perform oral sex on her, unless of course there are symptoms or an outbreak?
- correct
She has stated that every outbreak she has had has always been at the initial site of contact, her left labia. But I understand that she could very well have viral shedding essentially anywhere on her lower extremities?
- close. When she has an ob she is shedding from the actual lesion as well as from the anogenital area itself ( think everything covered with pubic hair from the front all the way back to and including her anal area ). She also sheds periodically from that area in between obvious lesions ( not just from the area she usually gets ob's at ).
I have also read that an individual who has HSV-1 (Oral) reduces, to some extent, the chances of contracting HSV-2 (genital) because they already have some antibodies in their system?
- not anything significantly. What it does do is make it more likely that if you did contract hsv2, your initial ob would be milder and perhaps even go unnoticed.
If 2 people have HSV-2 (genital) they cannot re-infect one another and therefore safer sex practices (condoms) are not really necessary?
- correct - as long as all other std's have been ruled out of course
Does viral shedding decrease with the length of time that someone has HSV-2, she said that she hasn’t had an outbreak in 8 years and that her former husband is still HSV-free, which would lead me to believe that the chances of contracting HSV-2 from her would actually be less than the 4% listed above?
- not that we are aware of. We have info that shows that shedding stays pretty much constant from 1 year of being infection to 10 years of being infected. we are still waiting for a study that looked at shedding in folks infected for more than 10 years but we aren't expecting it to be significantly less to be honest.
Last one…since a condom only protects what is covered, what measures can be taken to protect those areas not covered, i.e. the base of the penis and groin area….I’ve heard saran wrap, cutting a hole in a dental dam and sliding it down after putting on a condom...is there anything less….insulting, for a lack of a better term, that can be done without making the individual feel uncomfortable?
- no reason to wrap yourself up in latex head to toe for sex - just no pleasure in that. Your risk is already low in general. Personally I'd rather have my partner take suppressive therapy than I would be worried about trying to keep all body parts covered in latex - especially in a new relationship but that's just my own 2 cents. I think the more you make out of trying to cover all the body parts in latex - the more emphasis it puts on being infected in the first place.
Have you been tested yet to know your own status?
grace
she isn't talking me into anything...i'm just trying to figure all os this out in my mind..
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Herpes spreads by oral, vaginal and anal sex.
Herpes sores blister, then burst, scab and heal.
STIs are the most common cause of genital sores.
Millions of people are diagnosed with STDs in the U.S. each year.
STDs can't be transmitted by casual contact, like hugging or touching.
Syphilis is an STD that is transmitted by oral, genital and anal sex.
