Why?

I want to know why it is that when I explain my beliefs about America, politicians, etc. I get called "stupid," "ridiculous," an "extremist" or a "hypocrite" and the list goes on.  Just because I tend to have conservative views and I choose to speak out against corruption in our government and do not appreciate the government being involved in my life does not give anyone the right to attack me here on this forum or to send me PMs attacking me either.  Every single time I have offered my opinion, I have NEVER called anyone with differing views by names or put them down for their beliefs!  I simply state mine but unfortunately I have NOT received the same respect!  Perhaps when we are explaining our views we could try to remember that - and be respectful!  

[Barbarella]

Check out political Liberal sites/boards and compare to Conservative sites/boards and you will see a BIG difference as in attacking people, calling people names.

On some of the Liberal sites for example when then conservative White House Press Secretary Tony Snow came down with cancer people on the Liberal sites were saying "I hope he dies"  etc etc, when Tony Snow DID die there were posts i.e. "good riddence" other posts said "we hope they will bury him in his nazi uniform",  "who cares about this neo nazi" and on and on.  Total DISRESPECT for this man and his family.  What has Tony Snow ever done to them??  Just because he was a conservative this brave man was attacked even after his death.

In case you wonder how I found out about this since I do not go to Liberal sites, I head it on FOX and I checked it out by myself, not that I didn't believe it but I had to see exactly what was said.  I'm not like some Liberals who come on the conservative sites just to b..., raise hell and attack conservative people.  They believe different than I do, I do not go there just to argue and attack people.

Now check out the conservative sites and read what was said when Ted Kennedy not to long ago came down with brain cancer, posts like "we will pray for him" or we don't agree with his politics but we hope that he will get well".  There was not ONE post that wished him dead.  I post on quite a few political sites and know what I am talking about.

This is a free country, so I thought, and people should not get attacked for their believes and should not get by with things just because they are a Liberal as this teacher in NC did but if a conservative he/she gets crucified.

Just look what our own president does.  I'm sick and tired of him trashing president Bush whenever he has a chance yet president Bush has yet to trash Obama.  Obama knew exactly what he was getting into when he applied for the job, he got the job, and I suggest its about time that he is man enough to step up and DO the job or step down and let somebody do it who CAN do the job.  This asinine whining about Bush is so Kindergarten mentallity, all presidents inherit stuff from the previous administration however, how they will handle it shows what kind of men they are.  

Laura Bush stuck up for Michelle Obama during the primaries, Michelle Obama praised her for it.

[ILADVOCATE]

Makes sense from any direction. A "hypocrite" literally is someone has a set of beliefs and yet does not live up to them. That could be anyone from any political background. I really wouldn't know anyone here who falls into that category. I've been on political debate sites on other forums and I am only interested in debates that accomplish something productive. I have noticed some debates that concerned morality that went on for literally a year and after a while I started to wonder why the people were bothering. It was like an arguement that went on endlessly. Really both sides should respect each other and let it go. The most interesting forums are neither conservative nor liberal but just general political debates and both sides could learn from each other and occasionally do but its rare. Its a shame the internet has replaced meetings at town hall in local communities where anyone could voice their opinion in person but the reason is people failed to show up. In fact the percentage of Americans who vote compared to other countries is quite low. We live in a participatory democracy and voting is not only a right to me its an obligation and one can't say that things happenned if they don't speak their mind because if you don't put in your opinion who is there to hear it? On the other if you do you should expect respect and then give it in return. Common decency.

[teko]

I think it is one thing to state ones views, but stating and attacking because someone believes differently is a complicated thing. To even wish someone would die to me is just soooo difficult to digest. I have noticed that if someone is republican for instance, they cannot state a case without downing a dem and vica versa. I think it comes across personal somehow.  I voted Obama and do not appreciate hearing constantly what a stupid dweeb he is. When I voted Bush, I heard him put down horribly also.  No respect for the office anymore and free speach has come close to hatred. IMO

I have to watch myself because I could get upset and really lash out sometimes. But to wish someone dead? That is no better than what is going on in Iran right now. In fact I could see similar confrontations in our own country if it does not stop. It is downright dangerous and the media has done nothing but pit one party against the other, and people suck it up. I just dont know what else to say except I am sorry this happened to you.

[teko]

I did say and will again tho, that N. Korea leader needs assassinated and so does the dude in Iran. Might be the only thing that saves millions of lives there. So, that is my exception to my post. Us wishing our own dead? Just sad! How civilized America has become!

[twehner5]

You do a very good job of NOT attacking people AND of respecting opinions.  You do a good job of coming across as speaking for yourself.  I am surprised that you have been called all those names, because I have never thought you sounded mean or stupid or ridiculous or hypocritical, or any of those things you said you have been called.

Keep up the good posts and the level-headed comments.

[dominosarah]

I dont know why they do that either HelpinUtah.....maybe the same reason they dont think addicts have a right to breathe their air either........sara

[margypops]

If you look at the other threads here on the Social forum  you will see this happens to others aswell , I come in for quite a bit of it, someone even did it a couple of weeks ago on my own journal, I chose to delete it rather than have an argument  I have had a few snidey remarks today, take a look. so it isnt just you, I dont do it back I just assume they cant help it and maybe its because they are afraid...Barbarella you are so right once again,

[redheadaussie]

Isn't it amazing how people can tell you how 'wrong' you are! Yet they can not see that perhaps they are wrong too?
It always amazes me that people think they are 'right' and get so righteous about it! Reminds me of religion; why is it that almost every religion believes their 'god' is the ONLY god, and wars start. How about accepting the fact we have different opinions. Agree to disagree but not force it down our throats we are evil and doomed to die a horrible death if we do not believe in the other persons religion!
  Same with politics and other sensitive issues.
I tend to be able to observe both sides of any argument. I may keep any views about them to myself. I may also learn from what the person has presented, but I will never be rude and obnoxious to another just because they have personal beliefs.
I know my own beliefs have changed over the years.
  So, maybe HelpinUtah you may just need to tolerate these people are narrow minded and just hit that delete key if it seems they are trying to tell you what you should and should be.
   Just my 5 cents worth....plus tax...plus overtime fee...Hee hee

[margypops]

Yes I think redheadaussie  is right and dont let it get to you,dont do it back they are usually bad tempered people anyway and thats the way they are..just put your opinion in which is what you usually do, dont take it too personally I dont... in fact I sometimes have a laugh at them.

[margypops]

As was said on another thread,' I think this deserves a bump'

[hope4thegoodstuff]

I'm sorry you are attacked personally it should not happen.  Sometimes we all just need to understand that people have different ways of processing information....You hear all the time about people are type A personalities or are a blue rather than a green and there is some meaning to all of that.  So if you figure out how a person processes things, it might make things a bit easier.  Oh I'm a green, with a touch of the blue...That basically means that I like to figure out puzzles...I'm good with math (though I don't like it)  I'm kind of a loner and at the same time I want to mother everone and can be sociable.  (HA talk about being conflicted)

I am a registered democrat.  That does not mean that I am a stupid democrat.   I've always tested well.  slightly above average intelligence.  LOL.
I like smart democrats.
I don't like stupid democrats.

I have a healthy respect for smart republicans.
I can't stand a stupid republican.

Now I'll give you an idea of what I mean by stupid.
We all have opinions and we all have a right to them.  But you have some people out there that are they way that they are because of who they are...IF a parent is a dyed in the wool republican...they vote republican...breath republican and think that all democrats are bad....that is a stupid republican..(that goes the same for the dem side)
Not all republicans are right...not all democrats are wrong and anyone that comes up with those types of opinions...they don't even try to process the information..they don't listen...but they interpret anyway....they just blast away because someone from other party had the audacity to open their mouths.  That to me is a stupid person...just knee jerk reaction without thinking.

All of my opinions cannot be wrong because I am a dem.  That is not reasonable.  ( I have voted for republicans) Mr Obama cannot possibly utter only wrong words.  Especially when deep down, he seems to be a very nice man, he is a strong Christian regardles off what the stupid pubs say...he loves his wife...he adores his children....he likes dogs and Joe Biden...How bad could he be?  And he seems to be excruciatingly intelligent.

Now, I am not a fan of W.  Having said that I believe that there are things about him that are nice.  It would probably be very interesting to sit down and have a chat with him, but I am pretty sure we would find a lot to be in disagreement about.  I believe the war in Iraq was wrong.  We took our eye off the ball...but now I also believe that it may be too late for Afghanistan....so there, for me there is always give and take.  

We all have different experiences in life.  Our minds have different ways of dealing with trials in life.  That's what can make us a unique and beautiful being...unfortunately it can make us go the other way as well.  But different experiences gives us different perspectives and we should be able to speak our perspectives without persecution.  Why can't we just exchange our ideas and pull the best ones from the basket.  But what works for me in my circumstances....may not work for someone in different circumstances and that's what we have to come to term with.
What I try to do is this...
Understand that you don't have to agree with each other, and we don't have to like each other but you do have to understand that we each have thoughts and feelings...they may seem irrational and untelligent sometimes...but that does not stop them from being there.  If I could stop a thought from jumping into my head...but oops...there goes another one.....  What you can do is stop and think what to do about it.  Some folks do not have the talent to stop the thought from jumping from their fingers to the keyboard and just spouting the first thing that comes into their head.  I can't tell you how many times I have typed out a monologue such as this and  then deleted the whole thing because it seems irrational.  (and stupid)
But we should not be out here to take chunks out of each other or "score points" off of each other.  We need to express ideas and not exchange hurtful barbs...
Shoot....I did go on...and I don't have the eloquence of some of the folks out here. Sorry.

All said and done?  I like ya.  
(should have just stuck with that huh?)

[hope4thegoodstuff]

OMG...look how long that was.  Shoot.

[twehner5]

I'm still reading it!  So far, so GOOD!

[Melissa0116]

Amen.  I was a registered republican but actually changed it recently to no affiliation.  I just find some of both sides to be irrational and ridiculous.  So, I totally agree with you that we need to listen to all sides and not attack each other personally for our viewpoints.  I may not agree with all that you said but I respect your views.  Calling names and telling others they are stupid is just not called for and we all need to just be open to hearing all views no matter if you agree with them or not.  That is why we live here in America since we have Freedom of Speech.  Thanks so much for being a voice of reason.  We really need that around here.  

[twehner5]

TO: hope4thegoodstuff  AND Melissa0116

Hope, LOVED your post.  I'll start calling you Wendy - JK!!!!  I agree with what you said, and it's hard to condense it - I read till the end.

Melissa, I am a registered Republican, but I've voted for Democrats, too.  I stay affiliated WITH a certain party so that I can vote in the primaries.

My parents DRILLED it into my head even as a small child that I should look at a candidate FIRST and his/her party affiliation 2nd.

I was NOT glad that John McCain was the Republican choice to run for President.  But, I chose the "lesser of two evils", and voted for him over the LESS EXPERIENCED, Barrack Obama.  I still stand by my decision.

[Melissa0116]

In PA we have a closed Primary which means that you can only vote what you are registered as.  But, according to the State, that will be changing in November.  We will see if it actually passes since we still did not pass our budget.  My parents are not really into politics and really never said much about it at all.  I really got into it on my own by listening to others points of views and from my own research.  I also vote based on what I believe is morally right for me and my family.  I also did not care for John McCain as a cadidate for President but chose him based on what I felt was correct and right for this country.  I still stand by my decision as well.  

[twehner5]

In FL, where I lived for 38 years, it was the same as you describe....you can only vote as you were registered.  If I did not like ANY of the candidates, I did not vote for any of them.

It's funny that since I moved to WI 5 years ago, I haven't thought to notice....I thought that was a law everywhere!  Now that you point out that it is different in different states, I'm going to have to educate myself on the laws in WI.

One thing that irks me here in WI is that I can walk up the day of an election and register to vote!  To prevent voter fraud, you have to be registered weeks before an election in FL.  I think that's MUCH better.  I know that this past November, there WAS a lot of controversy about voter fraud in Milwaukee.  Huh?  Really?  In Milwaukee?  Psyche!

I almost forgot to ask....are YOU allowed to vote in primaries since you are not party-affiliated?  I'm about to go that route myself!

[Melissa0116]

You all in Wisconsin have open primaries so you can be any affiliation and vote for whomever you want.  Other states that have open primaries are:  Alabama, Arkansas, Georgia, Hawaii, Idaho, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Montana, North Dakota, Vermont and Wisconsin.  We are trying to get a bill passed to allow independents and non-affiliated party members to vote in Primaries but as of now we cannot.  This is what it states on our state site:

Under Pennsylvania law, independent and alternative-party affiliated voters are banned from voting for Democratic and Republican nominees.

They also are banned from voting in so-called non-partisan races, such as school board and county judicial primaries in which candidates are allowed to cross-file on both major party primary ballots. These races are often decided in the primaries, before voters unaffiliated with the major parties have an opportunity to vote in the fall general election.


It really stinks our system in PA.  Hopefully in 2010 we will get a new Governor that is willing to allow us to make our own decision on who we vote for and run this state better.  Our current Governor does a terrible job.  Our crime rate has gone up extensively and the deficit is not good at all.  

[twehner5]

Thanks!  That's funny how you got me to thinking about that.

Having lived in FL *FOREVER*, and no where else, I just wrongly made the assumption that that was somehow a federal law about how and who could vote in primaries.  Reading one of your earlier comments is what got me to thinking about it - and I thought I could almost remember that my primary ballots had BOTH parties represented.... I just never stopped to think once I left the precinct.  That's what I get!

[Piparskeggr]

Good morning;

If I may?

I have been on the "Net" since the days of the original DARPA-net and US Navy tech-net (early 1980's); acoustic modems using the telephone's handset, dial up BBS's, 300 Baud transmission rates, monochrome monitors, text only, thermo-fax printers...now, the Wierd Wide Web ,-) with cable modem, 10 mega Baud, full color everything...near instantaneous communication.

The culture online has "always" been different than face-to-face interaction.  Photons carry no inflection, no tone, no sense of emphasis...no real idea of the person behind the words.

Keyboard  Cowboys, Armchair Adventurers and Troublesome Trolls popped up as soon as did anonymous screen names and the opening of the web to the nontechnical world-at-large.

It is easy to toss off-color or barbed comments when you can not see the effect at the other end of the wires, which is why I try to type as if I have only one finger to match the one brain in my skull.  Sometimes using all 10 leads one to send out comments one would not say in person.

I am the founder of a list for folks within my faith community, which has over 300 subscribers.  We have had some pretty big blowups over the years.  This is lessened however, amongst the folks who have attended our annual campouts.  We still disagree, sometimes vehemently, about interpretations and findings, but those who have spoken with each other, shared a meal, hoisted a beer, sung around the campfire...it becomes about ideas, rather than perceptions of personality.

Perhaps, we should all remember that we can only, truly, ascribe motives and feelings, or personality traits (good or bad) to those with whom we have actually met?

be well - Pip

[Barbarella]

Very interesting!  You call President Obama "Mr. Obama" yet you call President Bush "W".  Doesn't he deserve to be called by his name??  

[HelpinUtah]

WOW - great posts everyone!  Thanks for responding - I really like this exchange of ideas A LOT!  

I agree with hope4thegoodstuff.  I grew up in a very democrat oriented area of Pennsylvania (Lower Bucks, Bristol Township) and my mother and her family as well as my father and his family were all democrats.  I was the oddball because I ended up be conservative and when I first registered did so as a republican.  My f;amily was appalled.  They couldn't believe it.  Goes to show I always had a mind of my own!  LOL!!!  Eventually, both my brothers also became Republican (without my influence) and that really bugged them all!  ;)  Anyway, what I'm saying is we all have ideologies, different morals, different preferences and that makes us the wonderful country that we are!  America is diverse and fabulous!  I just think somewhere along the way we have forgotten that we are AMERICANS first - and the rest is hogwash!  I hope that makes sense - I have the FLU and my mind is jumbling!  LOL!!!

In Utah, we also must register for a party in order to vote in the Primaries and that's why I tend to register Republican but my mindset is that of an independent.  I often vote for a democrat.  For instance, in Utah, Congressman Jim Matheson, is a democrat I could vote for (he's not in my district) - I don't agree with everything about him, but I like the man a lot and believe he does the right things for Utah and for the country.  He doesn't have an ego like many of our politicians.  

I did not vote for Pres. Clinton, but I like him.  I think there were some things he did that I was not happy about (depleting our military and stuff like that), but I believe he truly loved this country.  I fel the same way about Pres. Bush, I believe he is a good man who loves this country, but there are many things he did I disagreed with (like the stimulus packages).  So far, and I say this with a true heart, I have not found anything I like about Pres. Obama.  I can't even say I think he's a nice person.  I don't want to offend anyone who likes him and so I'll leave it at that.  But, I won't be disrespectful.  When Pres. Obama won the election I was saddened (although I didn't truly like John McCain either  and wondered how we ended up with those two as our choices - I was actually dumbounded). I really tried to be open-minded toward him when he won and decided to give him some time, but then he had 3 bills passed in the same week he took office that I had issue with and since then I have had issue with just about everything he proposes.  I feel as an American I need to stand up and say what I think is wrong - that's what our democracy is and I'm proud of that!  I am NOT disrespectful of him - he is my President and I honor the office.  I pray for him and his family every day!  

Okay, I don't even remember my point anymore - I'm blaming the FLU.  LOL!!!

[margypops]

Well I didnt think the war in Iraq was wrong at the time and most of America were wanting the Troops to go in,as far as I could see, it was only after it was discovered that there were no Nuclear weapons that the tide turned,big time.It would be  be a differant story now.,if a lot of weapons had been found.I did not like the war but I am very glad that Saddam Hussein isnt around any more to kill his own people.. it also seems to me that some people should practise what they preach,....

[HelpinUtah]

That's a whole other discussion (the war in Iraq).  I think people have forgotten when we first went into Iraq we had to come in from the bottom rather from Turkey like we wanted as well.  Does anyone remember watching CNN and hearing them talking about caravans going into Iran and Syria? I remember it and I remember the journalists stating that "our government thought that those weapons of mass destruction were going into Syria and Iran."  So, in my humble opinion, I believe that those weapons were there but taken into those two countries.  I will believe that until the day I die.  We have no proof - it's true.  But, in my gut, I believe that they were in Iraq prior to us moving in - we even found bunkers of chemical weapon suits, etc.  We found an empty van that had evidence it had been used as a moving weapons of mass destruction lab (chemical war fare).  

[margypops]

Responding to part of the post before last helpinutah... I guess my main concern /gut feeling began when I heard of 20 years listening to the words of wright and befriending Ayers, it sent off a red light in my head, I also pondered on a woman wanting to be married by a man like Wright in his Church, or have your children christened by a man like that, then after OBama was President , it was the way he spoke about America at the Summit saying that we were arrogant, derisory, apologising for the American people.I have never heard any head of a country do that never mind America , the careful way he treats our enemies, the studied quietness in response to N Korea and Iran, even Europe protests, .I am uncertain yet what his agenda is but again my gut tells me there is one, why the Rush to do everything he has done in 6 months ..and Government taking over ..so many things that are worrisome and dont add up ..Its not about disrespect enough people blagarded George Bush he got it from every quarter who was respecting him or is it differant now ? why,I do respect the American People and the constitution ...

[Barbarella]

Read this, its from the NY SUN!  I and many others believed that all along.  Many Europeans in the media have criticized President Bush about WMD's but go over there and start a conservation with the "every day people" about Politics and see the response.  The first thing we were told over there in 2006 by a group of Germans in a Restaurant "why are you Americans so stupid and don't realize that the WMD's were shipped to Syria"??  The ones we talked to ALL believed that Saddam DID have WMD's and shipped them out.  Read below!


"A former general and friend of Saddam Hussein who defected but maintains close contact with Iraq claims the regime supported al-Qaida with intelligence, finances and munitions and believes weapons of mass destruction are hidden in Syria.

Ali Ibrahim al-Tikriti, southern regional commander for Saddam Hussein's Fedayeen militia in the late 1980s, spoke with Ryan Mauro of WorldThreats.com.

Known as the "Butcher of Basra," al-Tikriti commanded units that dealt with chemical and biological weapons. He defected shortly before the Gulf War in 1991.

Last month, Saddam Hussein's No. 2 Air Force officer, Georges Sada, told the New York Sun Iraq's weapons of mass destruction were moved to Syria six weeks before the war started. Sada claimed two Iraqi Airways Boeing jets converted to cargo planes moved the weapons in a total of 56 flights. They attracted little attention, he said, because they were thought to be civilian flights providing relief from Iraq to Syria, which had suffered a flood after a dam collapse in 2002.

Discussing Saddam's support of terrorism, al-Tikriti said the dictator's regime sponsored Palestinian groups with logistical and material support.


For a time, support for al-Qaida was limited, the former general said, mainly because al-Qaida's aim was to create an Islamic empire while Saddam wanted a secular Arab nationalist empire.

"They only really came to terms in the mid '90s due to the fact that both knew they shared the same short-term enemy," the general said. "Once they came to terms on this, Saddam provided al-Qaida with intelligence support and whatever money or munitions they could provide."

Al-Tikriti said Saddam "had very long-standing contacts in the black market as well as with Moscow and would provide whatever munitions he could through these contacts."

The secular Baathists and radical Islamists certainly are able to put aside their differences to cooperate against the U.S., he insisted.

"If you look in Iraq today, you are witnessing Arab nationalist terrorist organizations and Islamist terrorist organizations working together to fight the United States."

Al-Tikriti dismissed the commonly heard claim that the U.S. helped bring Saddam to power, calling it "absolutely ludicrous."

The Baathist revolution, he said, was backed by the Soviet Union because of the shared socialist ideology.

"I was there helping with the revolution and worked on two occasions with Soviet KGB officials to help train us, much like the United States did with the Taliban during the Soviet campaign in Afghanistan," he said. "The United States never directly gave us any WMDs but rather ingredients. They were not mixed and these 'ingredients' could have been easily used for commercial use but were rather used to build low life chemical weapons."

Al-Tikriti says he knows Saddam's weapons are in Syria because of contingency plans established as far back as the late 1980s, in the event either Damascus or Baghdad were taken over.

"Not to mention, I have discussed this in-depth with various contacts of mine who have confirmed what I already knew," he said.

Saddam, after lying for so many years, knew the U.S. eventually would come for the weapons, he said, and wanted to maintain legitimacy with pan-Arab nationalists.

Also, he had "wanted since he took power to embarrass the West, and this was the perfect opportunity to do so," al-Tikriti said.

"After Saddam denied he had such weapons, why would he use them or leave them readily available to be found?" he said. "That would only legitimize President Bush, who he has a personal grudge against."

What we are witnessing now, he said, "is many who opposed the war to begin with are rallying around Saddam saying we overthrew a sovereign leader based on a lie about WMD. This is exactly what Saddam wanted and predicted."

Al-Tikriti said he turned against the Baath Party after his wife stood up to him and questioned his brutal tactics.

"This really made me think, because no one has ever even considered to question the tactics of myself or any others and lived to tell about it," he said. "This courageous move made me think deep and hard."

Al-Tikriti said he still maintains good sources inside and outside of Iraq.

"Some of Saddam's key scientists are personal friends of mine, as well as other key leaders in the former Iraqi military," he said. "I have helped draw information since my defecting to the United States government voluntarily and with the permission of these contacts. The only difference between many of them and I, is that I had the opportunity to defect and they didn't."

[margypops]

Goodness Barbarella some facts here Ihad not read about .thank you for making me more aware..

[Barb135]

This is another awesome thread and I don't know if I can do it justice, but I want to say to HelpinUtah - I know exactly what you mean about stating your opinion and being attacked and called names.  I had the exact same thing happen to me on here yesterday and it was all because I didn't agree with someone's opinion - that thread has now been deleted for some reason.  

I am actually a registered democrat, but definitely do NOT vote the party and am actually thinking of changing my affiliation. I am like the poster above who said they were taught to look at the person first, the party second.  

Every single President we've ever had, has done things that might not have been the best for the country, but it seemed that way at the time.  AND every new President has inherited problems from the previous administration - but often that's mostly because of the differences of opinion on HOW things should/should not be accomplished.  

I was appalled at the choices we ended up for President for this past election - we really scraped the bottom of the barrel this time.  I did not like McCain as a choice for President either, but like so many, I voted for him as the "lessor of 2 evils".  It just so happened that the time was ripe for someone of Obama's caliber to be looked upon as some kind of "savior".  I can't remember the particulars, but I read not too long ago that almost 50% of the people who voted for him are now sorry that they did.  I have no idea WHO was polled or WHERE they were....... it was just a news article I ran across on the web......

So far, Mr Obama has done nothing to earn my respect and I'm still glad that I voted the way I did; in fact, he continues to make me more fearful every day with his policies of "government involvement" in every aspect of our lives; not to mention his attempts to "spend our way out" of a recession.  It just doesn't work that way.  

I just read an article this  morning about how in spite of the almost $1 trillion bailout, that was supposed to create jobs, etc, etc - unemployment is most likely going to reach double digits sometime this year.  That means millions more will be losing jobs AND insurance benefits...... not to mention that those of us who DO still have jobs and insurance may likely be taxed for them so we can help pay for those who do NOT have insurance.  Wow - when will it end?? This is scary stuff........ I'm thinkin' that *I* probably won't be able to afford to retire in 3 years like I'd planned/hoped.  

Hope4thegoodstuff made some excellent points about not everyone having to agree, or even like each other, but we DO have to respect other people's opinions.  We all have our own problems and lives to live and that's going to determine how we think about things and decide what's best for us.  

For instance: someone who has lost their job through no fault of their own is most likely hoping for unemployment benefits to be extended; or someone who's lost their medical insurance is probably hoping for some type of program that will insure them adequate medical care.  

There are as many ideas and opinions as there are people posting.  It's all about respecting each other and our individual ideas and views; as well as being able to debate something without "mud slinging" and name calling.  

[HelpinUtah]

Thank you for posting that - this just goes along with my gut instincts all along.  I knew in my heart that was Saddam's plan - he was evil.

[HelpinUtah]

Very well said - thanks!

[hope4thegoodstuff]

At the time of the war with Iraq....I could not believe that Saddam Hussein was as big a threat to us as Osama bin Laden was...I never wanted to go to war with Iraq...I thought we had our thumb on that rat's tail pretty good.  If he had WMD, why did he never use them?  Once we started bombing his country all over again, I'd of thought we'd have been fair game..and he had opportunity...and he'd already proven that it didn't bother him to hurt his own countrymen... We did not get him for a long time and the man we pulled from his rat hole was not an all powerfull man any more.  He could get that way again, I'm sure, but the man on TV was not an immediate threat any more...and from what the Army rangers said....we were so close in Afghanistan....we thought he was already injured and they were ready to go in and clean his clock...That's when we pull the rangers?  You don't think that's a bit weird...especially after his whole family was put on a plane and sent home the on 09-12?  I  think it was questionable.  

Oh and Barbarella, I did not intend to offend....to keep father and son separated (instead of saying Mr Bush 1 and Mr Bush 2 or president sr and president jr...I started calling "Dad" Herbert and "son" was "W" but it is said like "dubya"  since their names were so similar...I have a lot of die hard republican friends and co-workers and we would get into some interesting conversations, but it was just a thing we did...them as well as me....As for Mr Obama...I'm just not comfortable enough yet with him to give him a pet name, so he is still Mr Obama or President Obama...I have yet to come up with a comfort zone name for him...Yes I know it is correct to say President Obama and President Bush, but sometimes it's just such a mouthfull.....and I'm a very informal person.

[margypops]

Great debate here guys no attacking ,some good knowledgable views and input am enjoying it.and learning from you all.

[hope4thegoodstuff]

I loved that comment you made about "how did we end up with those two to start with"  I thought that was hilarious, because there were two pubs that I liked and my favorite dem became an adulterous oooo....so and so....wanted to cuss there, because he broke my heart...I thought he was a nice man.  That's another story, but I thought these two were the weakest links.  Frankly, (I'll get into this) I felt that the republican party pulled their best players and put in a sacrificial lamb.  I felt that they saw the writing on the wall, that it would be very difficult to get the office again...especially after the last election. (the two year one not the biggy)  Popular opinion was not swinging that way and the republicans had some very strong candidates...John McCain was not it...He has tried and failed abysmally twice.  That's fact.  But after you fail once, it is very difficult to make a successful run the second time.  So I think that Mitt Romney and Mike Huckabee were pulled back...I don't know if they know it or not, but that was my feeling on the whole thing.  And I've always liked John McCain, but it was so obvious that he is not comfortable with the economics side of things and that's what we were going to need...He lost me for good when he said that we were fundamentally strong and then my 401k tanked literally the next day.  It didn't do him a lot of good when he was on an interview and admitted that he almost drown because he got into a plane, flew off an air craft carrier and didn't know where the bail out button was...he didn't read his homework the night before.  He seemed to think it was funny, I thought it was a bit scary....I like his daughter though...she's plucky.

[hope4thegoodstuff]

I have a very important reason for staying with one of the top two affiliations...phone calls.  For two years, I got phone call after phone call and that was from the dems...I was afraid if I put independent or some other off thing.  I'd get calls and mail from all of them.  I did learn the fine art of screening my calls however.

[Melissa0116]

I understand why you thought that Saddam just was not a threat at that time.  We truley do not know why we went into Iraq except for 9/11.  The thing is that only the intelligence agencies and pentagon really know what the real threat was and we may never know.  I think some issues are kept private for our countries safety.  I really did not like the idea of going to War in Iraq, but we have done some great things to help the people of that country; women, children and of course we finally got Saddam.  But, I too was skeptical since I really did not want our military being in harms way or to go through so much mental and physical pain.  I truely wish that President Bush would have had some sort of plan on when we would be getting out of that country but again we do not truely know what was really going on.  Obama released some documents but only the torture documents and honestly I really do not think that we need to release any more documents since this will just put our military and country in harms way.  

Now, I may not be the most educated person on here but I really have done my homework on both sides, whether be Democrat or Republican.  Now, recently I have had others delete my posts since I did not agree with them on certain issues and I truely hope that they(and they know who they are) will respect my opinion as I do theirs.  I am also not so comfortable with Obama and have a hard time getting used to him as President.  I am usually a good judge of character and just do not see a good character in him.  But, people are able to change.  And I truely pray that he will do what is best for this country.  Honestly, I have not seen anything to this date.  Now, in saying that, I really do not wish him any harm.  I just want to see most of his policies fail since they will backrupt this country and cause major unemployment and also put this country in harms way.  I really do not want to see another 9/11.  Diplomacy has not worked to this day so we definitely have to come up with another way.  

Thanks for listening to my concerns as I really do appreciate the courtesy and respect that you have given to all of us that have different opinions.  God Bless.

[margypops]

and the little immigrant parrot on your shoulders says thank you for another great lesson...dont stop now...

[ILADVOCATE]

Yes well its complex. I remember that I was in N.Y.C. sometime after 9-11 and I was at a poetry reading and I read a poem stating that the United States had the right to defend itself and a couple of poets denounced me for that. One hasn't see the extremity of "left of center" until one sees the people who rant in Union Square every day against another "cause". After a while I ignore them. It is true that is some ways I am a liberal but basically I am a middle of the road democrat in voting and in thinking. I did have support for President Obama at the beginning but I haven't seen enough action in certain areas though I suppose it would take concerted action to pull America out of the reccession but if that can't be done then any social programs set up will not be able to be funded. As for Afghanistan I scanned in a photo that was taken by my grandparents when they visited there as part of a world tour years before the Taliban destroyed it and I would say its historically interesting and shows the current war as just part of a series of chain reactions. The question is when will it end.
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