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Why is women's choice more important then a mans?
I don't understand why women have more of a choice then men. A women has the choice weather or not they have a baby but a man doesn't. I'm sorry but it takes TWO people having sex to conceive a baby, both have the choice weather or not to use protection. I understand that sometimes birth control fails and condoms break but it still took TWO people having sex. A women gets to choose weather or not she's going to carry a baby, even if the man does or does not want the baby it's still up to her. I am NOT saying that a man has the right, nor do I think he should have the right to tell a women to not have a baby, but why does she get the choice and he doesn't? She can abort his baby and there's nothing he can do about it.
A women can choose to get pregnant, carry a baby and have it and there's NOTHING the man can do about it. If she has his baby she can make him pay child support weather he wanted the baby or not.
In my opinion I think BOTH women and men should stand up and take responsibility for their choices!
A women can choose to get pregnant, carry a baby and have it and there's NOTHING the man can do about it. If she has his baby she can make him pay child support weather he wanted the baby or not.
In my opinion I think BOTH women and men should stand up and take responsibility for their choices!
Best Answer
I do agree--I don't think it is fair when a female wants a baby, the male doesn't and still gets stuck. There's sick stories of women doing horrible things to have children. I think if you want a baby, that is on YOU to raise that child. Don't expect everyone and everything else to help you.
I don't disagree with anything in your post. I don't see any reason for you not to seek help from you husband when you separated...I don't think there is anything wrong with getting child support from the father of your children. He chose to be there father. My original post was not for situations such as yours.
I think this post has pretty much worn it's self out...there have been may ladies weighing in on this subject and that makes me happy. I have stated my opinion over and over again and do not feel that I have anything more to add. Thanks again ladies for all of your responses.
I think this post has pretty much worn it's self out...there have been may ladies weighing in on this subject and that makes me happy. I have stated my opinion over and over again and do not feel that I have anything more to add. Thanks again ladies for all of your responses.
Hmmm.....well, I haven't read every comment, but I probably agree w/ Ashelen the most.
I do believe that the vast majority of people know that there is a risk of pregnancy anytime you have sex. It doesn't matter if pleasure is the purpose for the sex or not. Pregnancy is a possibility whether birth control is used or not. Even if the father isn't ready to be a father, he can still help financially for the child he helped create. He never has to see that child if that is what he chooses. As for the mother, well I don't believe in abortion so to me, I don't believe there is a choice but of course, the law states otherwise.
I once knew a guy who had a girlfriend and she ended up pregnant. He called me just devastated because she was getting an abortion, even though he very much wanted that child. I felt so very bad for him. He would have loved and cared for that child always. I have no doubt that he would have happily been a single dad, given that choice.
As for child support/financial responsibility....well I have a son from a previous marriage. He was essentially a sperm donor...the father I mean :) Anyway, I never got a dime of child support and have never gone after it. I could have but preferred to not have the guy around and we were married for a time. But make no mistake...child support is to help support the child and not the mother. No one is suggesting a father be there for the mother forever if they are not a couple. That is not the same thing as financially supporting the child.
My husband and I separated for a time in 2003/2004. It was for 10 months and he did pay me child support during that separation. It was not court ordered or anything. As far as I know, unless something has changed recently, there is no such thing as a legal separation here in Texas anyway. But this was not something we wanted to go to court for or anything. Anyway, he paid the exact amount of money as my childcare cost at that time. Understand that the money he gave ONLY paid for childcare for me to work, or I could just as easily say, for him to work. I still paid for the roof over our heads, the food we ate, electricity, diapers and all the other bills that go along w/ being a home owner. So my husband was not taking care of me. There is a big difference in a man taking financial responsibility for his child or a man taking care of the child AND the mother. Not the same thing.
Oh, and I don't in any way, shape, or form think it is okay to intentionally trap a man into fatherhood if that is not what he wants. To do that intentionally is wrong. My comments are based on accidental pregnancies where both parties took the chance, birth control or not.
There is no easy answer, but I still think that far more women are left solely with the responsibility of raising children than men. Even being happily married (well most of the time anyway), I still physically take care of the kids much more than my husband. Yes, he is the provider, but at least his job does have an end at the end of the day. I do most of the cooking, cleaning, changing of diapers, faith teaching, homeschooling, etc. So even in our house, doing all of that earns me the right to pretty much make the decisions where the kids are concerned and my husband knows it.
Well, like I said, there isn't an easy answer and as many of you have said, the laws really can't be changed because where would it end? I just wanted to add my 2 cents.
I do believe that the vast majority of people know that there is a risk of pregnancy anytime you have sex. It doesn't matter if pleasure is the purpose for the sex or not. Pregnancy is a possibility whether birth control is used or not. Even if the father isn't ready to be a father, he can still help financially for the child he helped create. He never has to see that child if that is what he chooses. As for the mother, well I don't believe in abortion so to me, I don't believe there is a choice but of course, the law states otherwise.
I once knew a guy who had a girlfriend and she ended up pregnant. He called me just devastated because she was getting an abortion, even though he very much wanted that child. I felt so very bad for him. He would have loved and cared for that child always. I have no doubt that he would have happily been a single dad, given that choice.
As for child support/financial responsibility....well I have a son from a previous marriage. He was essentially a sperm donor...the father I mean :) Anyway, I never got a dime of child support and have never gone after it. I could have but preferred to not have the guy around and we were married for a time. But make no mistake...child support is to help support the child and not the mother. No one is suggesting a father be there for the mother forever if they are not a couple. That is not the same thing as financially supporting the child.
My husband and I separated for a time in 2003/2004. It was for 10 months and he did pay me child support during that separation. It was not court ordered or anything. As far as I know, unless something has changed recently, there is no such thing as a legal separation here in Texas anyway. But this was not something we wanted to go to court for or anything. Anyway, he paid the exact amount of money as my childcare cost at that time. Understand that the money he gave ONLY paid for childcare for me to work, or I could just as easily say, for him to work. I still paid for the roof over our heads, the food we ate, electricity, diapers and all the other bills that go along w/ being a home owner. So my husband was not taking care of me. There is a big difference in a man taking financial responsibility for his child or a man taking care of the child AND the mother. Not the same thing.
Oh, and I don't in any way, shape, or form think it is okay to intentionally trap a man into fatherhood if that is not what he wants. To do that intentionally is wrong. My comments are based on accidental pregnancies where both parties took the chance, birth control or not.
There is no easy answer, but I still think that far more women are left solely with the responsibility of raising children than men. Even being happily married (well most of the time anyway), I still physically take care of the kids much more than my husband. Yes, he is the provider, but at least his job does have an end at the end of the day. I do most of the cooking, cleaning, changing of diapers, faith teaching, homeschooling, etc. So even in our house, doing all of that earns me the right to pretty much make the decisions where the kids are concerned and my husband knows it.
Well, like I said, there isn't an easy answer and as many of you have said, the laws really can't be changed because where would it end? I just wanted to add my 2 cents.
PetiteWonder - You do have a very valid point, it's not an easy choice your are 100% correct.
I think this whole discussion overestimates how much choice is in the decision for a woman. In theory, yes there is choice. But if you trully believe abortion is murder then its not a choice. Yes adoption is an optionbut there is still alot of emotions in that. I am not going to continue to follow this as there are many valid points on both sides but i think the idea of choice is thrown around here like we are choosing what to wear.
Im not saying you r wrong. I just think this is such an emotionally laden thing and its not easy for the women. Neither party deserves an easy out. People should step up to their responsibility even if they dont want it. New #1 line would be she said she was on the pill. If they really want to make the choice they can control their ownprotection. If they r so afraid that condoms will fail, dont have sex.
Either way dont overestimate the amount of choice inthis type of decision
Im not saying you r wrong. I just think this is such an emotionally laden thing and its not easy for the women. Neither party deserves an easy out. People should step up to their responsibility even if they dont want it. New #1 line would be she said she was on the pill. If they really want to make the choice they can control their ownprotection. If they r so afraid that condoms will fail, dont have sex.
Either way dont overestimate the amount of choice inthis type of decision
mikaleen - you have stated your points as I have mind you expressed your opinion well I would just have to agree to disagree with you.
Ashelen - I do agree with you completely you've stated my points over and I understand that it wouldn't be possible to change the laws because of the repercussions that it would bring on. It's a very sad thing.
I was just bothered by this fact and I guess think that we as women should expect more of ourselves and not depend on men to always take care of us and our children. To be more cautious of who we choose to allow in our lives and our beds. We should be MORE responsible for our choices because they fall more heavily on us.
Ashelen - I do agree with you completely you've stated my points over and I understand that it wouldn't be possible to change the laws because of the repercussions that it would bring on. It's a very sad thing.
I was just bothered by this fact and I guess think that we as women should expect more of ourselves and not depend on men to always take care of us and our children. To be more cautious of who we choose to allow in our lives and our beds. We should be MORE responsible for our choices because they fall more heavily on us.
Sorry hit "post" too soon..
I meant to say..so when it comes down to it, this discussion is anecdotal. Because in reality, the only thing we can do is counsel women who became pregnant unexpectedly to TALK TO THEIR PARTNERS and make a decision TOGETHER. just like they created a life together, they have to take responsibility TOGETHER.
I am not in support of abortion in "oops" cases (except the very rare "oops" case) but I have helped more women than I can count through the process of deciding to or deciding not to get an abortion, and supported them 100% no matter what they chose. I can tell you that in 80% of the women I've spoken to over the years, and there have been at least hundreds, very few have taken the baby's father into consideration. That's a sad thing, if you ask me.
I meant to say..so when it comes down to it, this discussion is anecdotal. Because in reality, the only thing we can do is counsel women who became pregnant unexpectedly to TALK TO THEIR PARTNERS and make a decision TOGETHER. just like they created a life together, they have to take responsibility TOGETHER.
I am not in support of abortion in "oops" cases (except the very rare "oops" case) but I have helped more women than I can count through the process of deciding to or deciding not to get an abortion, and supported them 100% no matter what they chose. I can tell you that in 80% of the women I've spoken to over the years, and there have been at least hundreds, very few have taken the baby's father into consideration. That's a sad thing, if you ask me.
The case you're referencing where the girl had a boyfriend who "absolutely did not want children, and reminded his girlfriend to take her pills"....if he was that determined, he would've worn a condom.
Bottom line, people make choices and they KNOW the potential consequences of her actions. I do NOT believe a man should be entrapped into a pregnancy, by any means. But the reality is...sex exists to reproduce. Back in the day, do you think sexual partners were holding each other lovingly and whispering sweet nothings? No, let's be honest, they were probably grunting and going at it like rabbits. Sex evolved into a way to express love and intimacy, and a way to explore pleasure and mutual satisfaction, just like our relationships evolved from "mate to have babies" to "mate to be partners, and have babies if you both want one".
So for thousands of years, our species has known that sex creates babies. So when you have sex ...you know that it COULD happen. If a man is absolutely, positively, determined not to get pregnant...he can protect himself, and should! I fully believe that if a man is not ready to be a father and recognizes this fact, forcing him to be a father is WRONG WRONG WRONG. But nonetheless..he knew what could happen.
I do think it should be a mutual choice between the partners who created the life, though. Because you are absolutely right. Although the baby is carried in the woman's body, it is NOT solely her child - she merely "incubates" for 10 months, if you will. So just because she carries the child for 10 months, a man who is not ready to be a father should be roped into 18 years of responsibility? No.
But how do you fix it? Where do you draw the line? A man SHOULD have a say, but if they made a law forcing the woman allowing the father a say, a line would be crossed and things would start to get fuzzy because where do you stop? Does he get a 50/50 say in it? Does he get to ultimately call an abortion quits, or demand an abortion?
Unfortunately unless a woman steps up and maturely gives her partner the same choice she has, there's not much that can be done (and I do think you're right, a woman should give a man the choice. i know JUST AS MANY men who would be willing to be single dads and raise their babies on their own if given the choice as i know women who do). I think our system has to stay the way it is, because once you make that law....I just can't even list the potential problems I see.
Bottom line, people make choices and they KNOW the potential consequences of her actions. I do NOT believe a man should be entrapped into a pregnancy, by any means. But the reality is...sex exists to reproduce. Back in the day, do you think sexual partners were holding each other lovingly and whispering sweet nothings? No, let's be honest, they were probably grunting and going at it like rabbits. Sex evolved into a way to express love and intimacy, and a way to explore pleasure and mutual satisfaction, just like our relationships evolved from "mate to have babies" to "mate to be partners, and have babies if you both want one".
So for thousands of years, our species has known that sex creates babies. So when you have sex ...you know that it COULD happen. If a man is absolutely, positively, determined not to get pregnant...he can protect himself, and should! I fully believe that if a man is not ready to be a father and recognizes this fact, forcing him to be a father is WRONG WRONG WRONG. But nonetheless..he knew what could happen.
I do think it should be a mutual choice between the partners who created the life, though. Because you are absolutely right. Although the baby is carried in the woman's body, it is NOT solely her child - she merely "incubates" for 10 months, if you will. So just because she carries the child for 10 months, a man who is not ready to be a father should be roped into 18 years of responsibility? No.
But how do you fix it? Where do you draw the line? A man SHOULD have a say, but if they made a law forcing the woman allowing the father a say, a line would be crossed and things would start to get fuzzy because where do you stop? Does he get a 50/50 say in it? Does he get to ultimately call an abortion quits, or demand an abortion?
Unfortunately unless a woman steps up and maturely gives her partner the same choice she has, there's not much that can be done (and I do think you're right, a woman should give a man the choice. i know JUST AS MANY men who would be willing to be single dads and raise their babies on their own if given the choice as i know women who do). I think our system has to stay the way it is, because once you make that law....I just can't even list the potential problems I see.
There's no way it should all fall on the woman. I have to completely disagree. No matter what the circumstances are the fact is, it is NOT just her child. They won't be tied together for the rest of their lives, only 18 years. And men DO know that accidents happen, and they know the laws will force them to help provide for that child before they ever have sex. They ARE making their choice when they decide to engage in an act that could possibly result in a pregnancy no matter how careful both parties are.
So you are saying that a child should maybe have to live on the streets because mom can't afford the childcare for this month and loses her job? Or should have to potentially go all day in the same dirty diaper because she can't afford to buy new ones until next week? There is assistance, but it certainly doesn't cover everything. A woman makes her choice, and she can't be forced to not have the child because the man doesn't want it and will never have to pay. That is just wrong in so many ways. There are many reasons women will have a child, even when it's known the man isn't interested. Most of them just have to do with their personal beliefs. They aren't expecting a free ride by having some man take care of them, and no court is going to grant that. They are looking for a tiny bit of help to provide for the CHILD that they BOTH created, whether they both want it or not. It is a side effect of sex, and everybody over the age of 12 knows that.
It's easy to stand at the side of a situation and pass judgement, but nobody can ever truly understand anyone else's situation unless they've walked in their shoes. Not everyone is lucky enough to have a job that will grant them maternity leave...they may end up fired with NO way to provide for that child. Companies aren't required to hold a job. If they are a large enough company to be required to provide FMLA, that time is NOT paid. Some states offer short term disability but not all. Day care can run over $1000 a month, and if there is not reliable day care then the possibility of unemployment always exists. Women will go into motherhood knowing they will have to sacrifice much for the welfare of their child. I think a lousy $300 a month to cover diapers and food is NOTHING to ask of a man who had sex knowing what could happen no matter how well protected and knows that they will just walk away if that DOES happen. There's no reason they shouldn't have to deal with some kind of consequences for their actions...they don't deserve to walk away scot free from something that happens because of a CHOICE they made to have sex.
So you are saying that a child should maybe have to live on the streets because mom can't afford the childcare for this month and loses her job? Or should have to potentially go all day in the same dirty diaper because she can't afford to buy new ones until next week? There is assistance, but it certainly doesn't cover everything. A woman makes her choice, and she can't be forced to not have the child because the man doesn't want it and will never have to pay. That is just wrong in so many ways. There are many reasons women will have a child, even when it's known the man isn't interested. Most of them just have to do with their personal beliefs. They aren't expecting a free ride by having some man take care of them, and no court is going to grant that. They are looking for a tiny bit of help to provide for the CHILD that they BOTH created, whether they both want it or not. It is a side effect of sex, and everybody over the age of 12 knows that.
It's easy to stand at the side of a situation and pass judgement, but nobody can ever truly understand anyone else's situation unless they've walked in their shoes. Not everyone is lucky enough to have a job that will grant them maternity leave...they may end up fired with NO way to provide for that child. Companies aren't required to hold a job. If they are a large enough company to be required to provide FMLA, that time is NOT paid. Some states offer short term disability but not all. Day care can run over $1000 a month, and if there is not reliable day care then the possibility of unemployment always exists. Women will go into motherhood knowing they will have to sacrifice much for the welfare of their child. I think a lousy $300 a month to cover diapers and food is NOTHING to ask of a man who had sex knowing what could happen no matter how well protected and knows that they will just walk away if that DOES happen. There's no reason they shouldn't have to deal with some kind of consequences for their actions...they don't deserve to walk away scot free from something that happens because of a CHOICE they made to have sex.
kimmey - Not in any of my posts have I stated that I think a man should be aloud to tell a woman what to do with her body. I don't understand where you are coming from towards my posts.
The issue is women in general have more of a right to choose whether or not they want to be a mother. It's the woman's choice whether or not to stay pregnant (I DO NOT THINK THIS CHOICE SHOULD BE TAKEN AWAY). But I do however think that men should have the same choice whether or not to be a father, if she decides to keep the baby and he doesn't want anything to do with the child I don't think he should have to pay for it. She should have to stand up and take care of her child on her own...not expect him to take care of her and deal with her choice. He should also have NO RIGHTS to that child after this choice. I personally don't agree with woman who expect men to pay for there choices.
Like I have stated before this would only apply to that initial choice...
Kelci0104 - I don't think that when you have sex it's a contract that binds you...that if you were to get pregnant you HAVE to be tied to that person for the rest of your life. Now if you as a woman tell a man before you have sex "Hey, I don't plan on getting pregnant, I'm on birth control, but if it fails then you need to be at least financially responsible for this child." If he chooses to still have sex with you then yes he would need to stand up to that responsibility. This doesn't happen. Men in general do not think this way...women may but a man isn't thinking about the consequences of sex they think of the act.
In regards to the issue of a woman not wanting to have the baby and the man still wanting the child, I think it's very sad that anyone would take that right away. But I do however understand and agree that you can't tell a woman what to do with her body. I understand the laws that protect a woman's choice to her body, I just think it's VERY SAD when she does make this choice, and completely takes it away from him.
This post originated from another post where a girl was upset that her boyfriend didn't want their baby. She stated that he had told her that he wasn't ready to be a father and reminded her everyday to take her birth control. She got sick and had to take medication that made her birth control fail, they were unaware that the medication had this affect so they didn't use any other form of contraception. She got pregnant of course and he wanted her to have an abortion. She choose to keep the pregnancy (I would have made the same decision). A lot of advice that she received was that he was a jerk, that he should have to pay for the baby and so forth and so on... I disagree with this exact situation, I don't think a woman should expect a man to be a father and have to pay for this child. He wasn't irresponsible and had sex with her when he thought they were unprotected. I understand that she didn't expect or want to get pregnant either, but she has the choice whether or not to have the baby, she should have to pay for the child if she wants to keep it and not expect anything from him. He shouldn't have to be obligated to her and the baby when it's not what he wants...she's the one that's making decisions for him and I don't think that's fair.
BOTTOM LINE:
I don't think women should expect men to take care of them or their children. If an accident occurs and she ends up pregnant and wants to keep that child and he doesn't then she should be solely responsible for that choice...he should not have to be tied to her and her child and pay for that child. He also should not have any rights to that child either. A lot have stated that if a man doesn't want to accept the responsibilities of what may come from a sex then he shouldn't have it in the first place. Well I think that should apply to women more so...if she has sex with someone that may not want to be a father or take care of her child then SHE shouldn't have sex. She shouldn't automaticlly assume he's going to be there for her and her child and pay for them. A WOMEN has more choice's and rights, I think she should have the bigger responsibility! SHE shouldn't sleep with someone unless she knows for sure that he's going to be there for her if she becomes pregnant OR she should accept that she may be a single mother without any help at all.
The issue is women in general have more of a right to choose whether or not they want to be a mother. It's the woman's choice whether or not to stay pregnant (I DO NOT THINK THIS CHOICE SHOULD BE TAKEN AWAY). But I do however think that men should have the same choice whether or not to be a father, if she decides to keep the baby and he doesn't want anything to do with the child I don't think he should have to pay for it. She should have to stand up and take care of her child on her own...not expect him to take care of her and deal with her choice. He should also have NO RIGHTS to that child after this choice. I personally don't agree with woman who expect men to pay for there choices.
Like I have stated before this would only apply to that initial choice...
Kelci0104 - I don't think that when you have sex it's a contract that binds you...that if you were to get pregnant you HAVE to be tied to that person for the rest of your life. Now if you as a woman tell a man before you have sex "Hey, I don't plan on getting pregnant, I'm on birth control, but if it fails then you need to be at least financially responsible for this child." If he chooses to still have sex with you then yes he would need to stand up to that responsibility. This doesn't happen. Men in general do not think this way...women may but a man isn't thinking about the consequences of sex they think of the act.
In regards to the issue of a woman not wanting to have the baby and the man still wanting the child, I think it's very sad that anyone would take that right away. But I do however understand and agree that you can't tell a woman what to do with her body. I understand the laws that protect a woman's choice to her body, I just think it's VERY SAD when she does make this choice, and completely takes it away from him.
This post originated from another post where a girl was upset that her boyfriend didn't want their baby. She stated that he had told her that he wasn't ready to be a father and reminded her everyday to take her birth control. She got sick and had to take medication that made her birth control fail, they were unaware that the medication had this affect so they didn't use any other form of contraception. She got pregnant of course and he wanted her to have an abortion. She choose to keep the pregnancy (I would have made the same decision). A lot of advice that she received was that he was a jerk, that he should have to pay for the baby and so forth and so on... I disagree with this exact situation, I don't think a woman should expect a man to be a father and have to pay for this child. He wasn't irresponsible and had sex with her when he thought they were unprotected. I understand that she didn't expect or want to get pregnant either, but she has the choice whether or not to have the baby, she should have to pay for the child if she wants to keep it and not expect anything from him. He shouldn't have to be obligated to her and the baby when it's not what he wants...she's the one that's making decisions for him and I don't think that's fair.
BOTTOM LINE:
I don't think women should expect men to take care of them or their children. If an accident occurs and she ends up pregnant and wants to keep that child and he doesn't then she should be solely responsible for that choice...he should not have to be tied to her and her child and pay for that child. He also should not have any rights to that child either. A lot have stated that if a man doesn't want to accept the responsibilities of what may come from a sex then he shouldn't have it in the first place. Well I think that should apply to women more so...if she has sex with someone that may not want to be a father or take care of her child then SHE shouldn't have sex. She shouldn't automaticlly assume he's going to be there for her and her child and pay for them. A WOMEN has more choice's and rights, I think she should have the bigger responsibility! SHE shouldn't sleep with someone unless she knows for sure that he's going to be there for her if she becomes pregnant OR she should accept that she may be a single mother without any help at all.
Who said anything about sex being only about procreation? I love sex, second to being pregnant right now it's the most amazing thing ever. I was just staying that it is expected that if a man takes the gamble of inpregnating a woman it should be his responsiblity to financially provide for them, and if he can't stand to gamble that much he should fold before it's too late. The only way to have a sure bet that pregnancy won't occur is abstinace, or to remove (not just snip shut) the plumbing.
Sex is a commitment sure to its risk. That at the least should be taught in our schools these days. (or by parents if you prefer.)
Sex is a commitment sure to its risk. That at the least should be taught in our schools these days. (or by parents if you prefer.)
Hi Cminamyer, Yes, my post was in response to you -- what are you confused about? (and please note that I am not using exclamation marks like you did -- a sign of 'yelling' -- to respond).
Look, mikaleen hits it square on the head: your position is *highly* idealized. You say the father needs to also have a choice but how do you negotiate that when mistakes do happen and people do have a difference of opinion on how to proceed? That is why I outlined in my post why it is necessary that women -- those who are carrying the baby -- need to be the ones to make the ultimate decision. mikaleen is absolutely correct: you cannot force an individual to have a medical procedure without their explicit consent. How would you propose that these differences of opinion be resolved in a fair manner?
I'm not sure if you are aware but there have been cases where men have tried to prevent their girlfriends from having an abortion (most notably a case in the 90s from Quebec, Canada). The case got quite sticky but ultimately the courts heard the case and decided that it was the right of the mother to choose whether or not to continue the pregnancy. Forced continuance of a pregnancy would have impacted upon her freedom and liberties as an individual and would have been akin to treating a women like an incubator -- and we all would agree that we are so much more than that.
worriedbabe also has another great point: you can't force a man to be a father, however you can force him to pay child support, etc. THAT however is not about being a father but about taking care of the child -- a legal responsibility that will not be changed so long as our society continues to perceive parental roles as biologically based. I'm afraid that your recommendation that women not pursue child support would only result in negatively impacting upon the quality of life for the child -- a result I'm sure you would agree you would not want to see happen.
I'm confused however by your statement above:
"......I would NOT have made him be a father I let him choose this on his own! If he had decided that he didn't want to be a father before our first was conceived, even though we were married I would have let him leave! I would have raised MY daughter by myself and been everything that she needed. I would NEVER FORCE a decision on someone else!!!! I chose to be a mother! I let him CHOOSE to be a father!!!!"
I actually don't understand your position here. You say that you would have still had your daughter and raised her yourself (that is what I did, btw) but this seems to contradict what you have been saying. Is your frustration about choice with regards to choosing to have a child (abort or not abort), or are you thinking that women shouldn't pursue child support?
Look, mikaleen hits it square on the head: your position is *highly* idealized. You say the father needs to also have a choice but how do you negotiate that when mistakes do happen and people do have a difference of opinion on how to proceed? That is why I outlined in my post why it is necessary that women -- those who are carrying the baby -- need to be the ones to make the ultimate decision. mikaleen is absolutely correct: you cannot force an individual to have a medical procedure without their explicit consent. How would you propose that these differences of opinion be resolved in a fair manner?
I'm not sure if you are aware but there have been cases where men have tried to prevent their girlfriends from having an abortion (most notably a case in the 90s from Quebec, Canada). The case got quite sticky but ultimately the courts heard the case and decided that it was the right of the mother to choose whether or not to continue the pregnancy. Forced continuance of a pregnancy would have impacted upon her freedom and liberties as an individual and would have been akin to treating a women like an incubator -- and we all would agree that we are so much more than that.
worriedbabe also has another great point: you can't force a man to be a father, however you can force him to pay child support, etc. THAT however is not about being a father but about taking care of the child -- a legal responsibility that will not be changed so long as our society continues to perceive parental roles as biologically based. I'm afraid that your recommendation that women not pursue child support would only result in negatively impacting upon the quality of life for the child -- a result I'm sure you would agree you would not want to see happen.
I'm confused however by your statement above:
"......I would NOT have made him be a father I let him choose this on his own! If he had decided that he didn't want to be a father before our first was conceived, even though we were married I would have let him leave! I would have raised MY daughter by myself and been everything that she needed. I would NEVER FORCE a decision on someone else!!!! I chose to be a mother! I let him CHOOSE to be a father!!!!"
I actually don't understand your position here. You say that you would have still had your daughter and raised her yourself (that is what I did, btw) but this seems to contradict what you have been saying. Is your frustration about choice with regards to choosing to have a child (abort or not abort), or are you thinking that women shouldn't pursue child support?
The problem is that only works in an ideal world. Unfortunately there is no way to make 2 people agree on something like this, so the laws are written in a way that the courts are trying to protect the child, not the mother OR the father.
Since there is too many times that an agreement will never be reached it has to fall on someone, and the law chose the mother since she is the one carrying the child and birthing it and most likely handling all of the primary care. If the laws gave that right to the father then they would be encroaching on that woman's right to take care of her own body and health. You can't force a man to have any surgery he doesn't want to have, same goes for a woman. No matter what the surgery is for. There just isn't a way to give both people equal say in what happens, and the laws have to recognize that.
Since there is too many times that an agreement will never be reached it has to fall on someone, and the law chose the mother since she is the one carrying the child and birthing it and most likely handling all of the primary care. If the laws gave that right to the father then they would be encroaching on that woman's right to take care of her own body and health. You can't force a man to have any surgery he doesn't want to have, same goes for a woman. No matter what the surgery is for. There just isn't a way to give both people equal say in what happens, and the laws have to recognize that.
Right, i get you now i didn't before. Basically my answer is you cannot force a man to be a father, or to anything else. Comes from us all having free will. Personally, i would not want a man involved in my child's life in any way who didn't want to be. As regards maintenance for that child, it's not something i've ever applied for, but i think that does depend on individual cases.
I've answered and helped on over 10,000 posts and read double, if not triple that amount. It's not as rare as you think. I can't tell you the amount of women who have posted, asking if they will get pregnant from taking sperm out of old condoms or whatever they attempt. And you know what happens to the men who do get proven to be the father? He's court ordered to pay child support to a child he didn't want, or even know existed.
In cases were a female or male doesn't want to be pregnant but knowingly does not protect themselves, that is their own stupidity and both are equally responsible.
As much as we claim that it takes two, both should be responsible, it doesn't work that way. If a female wants to terminate but the male wants the baby, oh well it's her body. Now flip it, and heaven forbid the male even THINK of suggesting it. (I in NO circumstance support abortions, this is only an example) If it takes two, he should have just as much equal say in ALL choices of what happens to that baby, from the womb to the day that child moves out on their own.
In cases were a female or male doesn't want to be pregnant but knowingly does not protect themselves, that is their own stupidity and both are equally responsible.
As much as we claim that it takes two, both should be responsible, it doesn't work that way. If a female wants to terminate but the male wants the baby, oh well it's her body. Now flip it, and heaven forbid the male even THINK of suggesting it. (I in NO circumstance support abortions, this is only an example) If it takes two, he should have just as much equal say in ALL choices of what happens to that baby, from the womb to the day that child moves out on their own.
See, here's the thing...Nobody can force anybody into being a father. Or, ok, they can be forced to take care of their "fatherly responsibilities" if you want to call them that, which is nothing more than being partly financially responsible for the child that came of a sexual relationship they voluntarily took part in. And the courts impose that on them, not the mother, though she may be the one to instigate it, which she has every right to do seeing as most men are aware if a sexual relationship bares a child they will be called upon to help support that child.
They can not be forced into being a "daddy" and having anything to do with that child. They don't have to take them to Dr.s appointments, or get them ready for school in the morning if they don't want to.
And what do you propose when the "initial choice" is not agreed upon?? Do you go to court then and have the judge decide what will happen to that embryo?
No man is surprised if his pregnant lover looks for some financial help, it should be automatically assumed when entering into the sexual relationship that if a pregnancy occurs he will need to assist with expenses. No more, no less. He doesn't have to ever even know the child's name if he doesn't want to. If the woman is in a position to care for the child herself and he really does not want to be involved, she may even be willing to let him sign away his parental rights, even though that means she won't see a penny. I think a lot of women would do that if the man who fathered their child really wasn't going to be involved in any way and they could afford it. Day care is expensive, not a lot of woman are fortunate to have free help nearby. All she is looking for is a little help to give her child a life with clean diapers, food and shelter.
There's a special place for a woman who would trick a guy into getting her pregnant, and though it happens, it doesn't happen often. I would hope if that was the case it could be proven and he would not be held responsible. I really think that is rare though, and more often times a case of the man getting pissed off that she's pregnant and accusing her of not taking her birth control. What about a man who purposefully gets a woman pregnant when she is not looking for a child? Should he have equal say in what happens to THAT pregnancy as well? I shouldn't think so...
They can not be forced into being a "daddy" and having anything to do with that child. They don't have to take them to Dr.s appointments, or get them ready for school in the morning if they don't want to.
And what do you propose when the "initial choice" is not agreed upon?? Do you go to court then and have the judge decide what will happen to that embryo?
No man is surprised if his pregnant lover looks for some financial help, it should be automatically assumed when entering into the sexual relationship that if a pregnancy occurs he will need to assist with expenses. No more, no less. He doesn't have to ever even know the child's name if he doesn't want to. If the woman is in a position to care for the child herself and he really does not want to be involved, she may even be willing to let him sign away his parental rights, even though that means she won't see a penny. I think a lot of women would do that if the man who fathered their child really wasn't going to be involved in any way and they could afford it. Day care is expensive, not a lot of woman are fortunate to have free help nearby. All she is looking for is a little help to give her child a life with clean diapers, food and shelter.
There's a special place for a woman who would trick a guy into getting her pregnant, and though it happens, it doesn't happen often. I would hope if that was the case it could be proven and he would not be held responsible. I really think that is rare though, and more often times a case of the man getting pissed off that she's pregnant and accusing her of not taking her birth control. What about a man who purposefully gets a woman pregnant when she is not looking for a child? Should he have equal say in what happens to THAT pregnancy as well? I shouldn't think so...
Have you even been reading my posts???? Unless this is meant for someone else? I originated this post and have NO IDEA where you are coming from!
I have NEVER said that a woman should choose to not have a child! My post is about men NOT having the same choice! If a woman chooses to have a baby that is AMAZING!!! But I DO NOT think a man should be forced to be a father!!!!!!
I have TWO beautiful, amazing, caring, sweet, wonderful little girls and am expecting another one! I am VERY fortunate to married to the father of all of my daughters. He is an amazing, caring, loving, strong, supportive, responsible husband, FATHER and man! But I would NOT have made him be a father I let him choose this on his own! If he had decided that he didn't want to be a father before our first was conceived, even though we were married I would have let him leave! I would have raised MY daughter by myself and been everything that she needed. I would NEVER FORCE a decision on someone else!!!! I chose to be a mother! I let him CHOOSE to be a father!!!!
I have NEVER said that a woman should choose to not have a child! My post is about men NOT having the same choice! If a woman chooses to have a baby that is AMAZING!!! But I DO NOT think a man should be forced to be a father!!!!!!
I have TWO beautiful, amazing, caring, sweet, wonderful little girls and am expecting another one! I am VERY fortunate to married to the father of all of my daughters. He is an amazing, caring, loving, strong, supportive, responsible husband, FATHER and man! But I would NOT have made him be a father I let him choose this on his own! If he had decided that he didn't want to be a father before our first was conceived, even though we were married I would have let him leave! I would have raised MY daughter by myself and been everything that she needed. I would NEVER FORCE a decision on someone else!!!! I chose to be a mother! I let him CHOOSE to be a father!!!!
Wow, this has taken on a real life of its own and what I find most upsetting is that it is premised upon a false, pretty damned sexist, gross and (dare I say?) mysogynist stereotype that women are devious and trying to dupe men into having babies. Its quite ridiculous -- I mean, how often does this REALLY happen? Perhaps it has happened historically, but you are truly freaking out over a non-issue. Its hypothetical scenarious and urban legends that appear to be being discussed here; why is there so much anger and animosity fueling this 'debate' when the truth of the matter is that many MANY MORE women face obstacles in their lives, including access to accessible abortion, affordable medical care, education, and birth control? All of these things impace upon a woman's right, if not her ability, to fully choose.
The reason why women must have the final choice when it comes to their fecundity is simple: we live in a society where women most often carry the responsibility and burden of child-rearing. We also live in a world where economic priviledge and status still often belongs to MEN. Child rearing benefits all of society, and those of us who CHOOSE to mother our children make an incredible contribution to our future as a society.
Women are not incubators, and we are also not by nature devious beings. We do, however, carry the biological ability carry children, and this necessarily shapes our lives and our daily selves in a way that men can NEVER experience first-hand -- not even those men who are involved and seek to be involved in their partners pregnancy. We must be empowered to make the right choice for ourselves and our children, even when that choice may be a difficult or undesireable one.
One more thing: I have a daughter, a beautiful, amazing,strong, wonderful and intelligent daughter, and she came from an unplanned, 'accidental' pregnancy. Her father wanted me to abort her and I didn't. That was awful to go through and YET, because I was able to CHOOSE, actively choose to have her, unplanned and all, I was able to become the amazing momma I am today. There is no room for resentment or being a bad parent when you can fully CHOOSE whether or not to have your child.
The reason why women must have the final choice when it comes to their fecundity is simple: we live in a society where women most often carry the responsibility and burden of child-rearing. We also live in a world where economic priviledge and status still often belongs to MEN. Child rearing benefits all of society, and those of us who CHOOSE to mother our children make an incredible contribution to our future as a society.
Women are not incubators, and we are also not by nature devious beings. We do, however, carry the biological ability carry children, and this necessarily shapes our lives and our daily selves in a way that men can NEVER experience first-hand -- not even those men who are involved and seek to be involved in their partners pregnancy. We must be empowered to make the right choice for ourselves and our children, even when that choice may be a difficult or undesireable one.
One more thing: I have a daughter, a beautiful, amazing,strong, wonderful and intelligent daughter, and she came from an unplanned, 'accidental' pregnancy. Her father wanted me to abort her and I didn't. That was awful to go through and YET, because I was able to CHOOSE, actively choose to have her, unplanned and all, I was able to become the amazing momma I am today. There is no room for resentment or being a bad parent when you can fully CHOOSE whether or not to have your child.
Some of you just don't understand what I'm trying to say and that's fine. In my last post I stated that if he initial decides to be in the childs life then he should be obligated to stay around, as women we can have a child then a year or two later change our minds I don't think a man should be aloud to either.
But I do think he should get that INITIAL CHOICE just like we do! I'm sorry but in my opinion, NO sex is not just about procreation! I know some religions state that but I do not agree with this. People just don't have sex expecting it to result in a baby...if this is the case why have sex once you are pregnant? Or why have sex after you are no longer fertile?
If a woman gets pregnant by accident she can decide whether or not to keep that baby, I think a man should be able to decide the same thing! YES it's her body and I don't think anyone should be able to tell her what to do, but it's his life and he should be able to decide if he wants to be a father or not!
You can even flip the coin and when it comes to abortion she has the right to choose whether to keep the baby or not and he doesn't get the choice. I DO NOT THINK anyone should ever force a woman to have an abortion, but why does she get the choice to abort the baby even if the father wants it? If you go with what some of you have stated...she had sex so she should accept the consequences of it and shouldn't be aloud to have an abortion, right?
It's a double standard and I think it's CRAP!
But I do think he should get that INITIAL CHOICE just like we do! I'm sorry but in my opinion, NO sex is not just about procreation! I know some religions state that but I do not agree with this. People just don't have sex expecting it to result in a baby...if this is the case why have sex once you are pregnant? Or why have sex after you are no longer fertile?
If a woman gets pregnant by accident she can decide whether or not to keep that baby, I think a man should be able to decide the same thing! YES it's her body and I don't think anyone should be able to tell her what to do, but it's his life and he should be able to decide if he wants to be a father or not!
You can even flip the coin and when it comes to abortion she has the right to choose whether to keep the baby or not and he doesn't get the choice. I DO NOT THINK anyone should ever force a woman to have an abortion, but why does she get the choice to abort the baby even if the father wants it? If you go with what some of you have stated...she had sex so she should accept the consequences of it and shouldn't be aloud to have an abortion, right?
It's a double standard and I think it's CRAP!
I would guess in those situations you're describing the woman doesn't feel like she has a choice...I certainly didn't, from the moment I found out I loved my child, and no way was I going to even think about abortion, I would have protected that tiny life inside me to the death. Neither of us were expecting it or planning it, and luckily he didn't feel the way that a lot of guys do - who seem to use abortion as birth control - and he is being a good man to me and this baby even if it wasn't in either of our original plans. I gave up a lot already for this child, and will inevitably give up more than he will. He will contribute and he will be involved, but as a single mom I'm going to be the one responsible for middle-of-the-night care and worry and making career and life decisions based on this new little responsibility I now have.
I understand why a woman would feel like it is primarily her decision, whatever that decision might be. If he had asked me to terminate I would have cussed him out, because he'd be talking about our child and like I said, if he really hadn't wanted to risk being a parent he shouldn't have gotten into bed with me or anybody. At the point where you find out you're parents the deed is already done and for me at least the decision has been made. Now, as parents I'll consider him in all major decisions, because he does have rights too and I think he should be involved, but in the end I'm the one who has to live with those decisions...he can go back to his own life and concerns, while I handle the day-to-day care of our child.
I'm not talking about women who "trick" men into getting pregnant; mostly I think that's a paranoid male myth. But if that's truly your common experience with women, you might try seeking out better women before you end up back in bed with somebody...there are better women out there. Real women don't manipulate, we handle our business just like real men.
I understand why a woman would feel like it is primarily her decision, whatever that decision might be. If he had asked me to terminate I would have cussed him out, because he'd be talking about our child and like I said, if he really hadn't wanted to risk being a parent he shouldn't have gotten into bed with me or anybody. At the point where you find out you're parents the deed is already done and for me at least the decision has been made. Now, as parents I'll consider him in all major decisions, because he does have rights too and I think he should be involved, but in the end I'm the one who has to live with those decisions...he can go back to his own life and concerns, while I handle the day-to-day care of our child.
I'm not talking about women who "trick" men into getting pregnant; mostly I think that's a paranoid male myth. But if that's truly your common experience with women, you might try seeking out better women before you end up back in bed with somebody...there are better women out there. Real women don't manipulate, we handle our business just like real men.
The man took his responsibility and choices when he decided to have sex. Of course it's the woman's choice whether to go through with the pregnancy or not, it's her body! It is unfortunate if the mother and father's opinion on what to do about a pregnancy differs. But you cannot expect to enforce your wishes on her body!
A women is the one thst is going so to have carry, birth, and care for a baby. It is her body and she should be able to decide on what she wants. Even the best men lack.on care for the child if a woman is available. A woman has to give up so much at times. A guy can decide he wants the baby one minute and be out the door two seconds later. Everyone has their own opinions. I could never imagine carrying and developing a love for my child and later having to give it up. I use to could never imagine having an abortion until something happened in my life. You never know what you will "NEVER" do until you are put in a situation..
Unless both parties decide to give up those rights, and give their child a more complete home through adoption.
We live in a judio-christian society, and believe ir or not, it is still expected by legal and religious leaders that one will remain abstinate until marriage. Or ay the least when one has sex they are committed enough to be producing a family. Basically, your body makes that decision when you make that decision to have sex. And yes it is a decision. Once that child is born I believe, as you made that decision to "hump and dump" or even to have a relationship that was committed enough to have sex, that you financially need to stand behind that decision.
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