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Avatar universal

herpes or not?

I was with a guy for 5 months....about 1.5 months after being with him, I had a full STD panel done - - everything came back negative (herpes img and igg both negative).  The last time I had intercourse with the individual was on July 26th.  When the relationship ended, I decided to get tested to make sure I was still "clean".  I was tested again on 8/26 (about 5 weeks after last encounter)....all STD's came up negative with the exception of ImG for Herpes - - it was boderline (1.08).  I thought I had a yeast infection on 8/15 and began using monistat - - within 24 hours of using monistat the soreness disappeared and I felt much better.  In additon to using the monistat, my ob/gyn prescribed an anti-fungal/steroid treatment (clotrimazole & betamethasone dipropionate) to make sure it went away (he didn't physically see me).  Told me that if pain didn't go away within a day, to call the office and come in.  Since pain went away assumed it was yeast.  On 9/1 went to my gp since I saw some red patches (which were sore) right below my vaginal lips...upon inspection, he didn't believe it was herpes - - he prescribed topical cortizone.  A day later, the red patches felt better, but my vagina was inflamed and felt like it was burning.  On 9/2, the gp i saw the evening before told me to start monstat again, but stay away from steroid cream - - just use cortizone.  My vagina was felt like it was burning again, and I was painced so I went back to another gp on 9/3 - she looked and diagnosed me with herpes (no visual lesions/bumps, etc - - she only saw an inflamed vulva).  Also on 9/3, the gp diagnosed me with HPV (saw a wart).  I was started on Famvir that evening - - took first dose at 4 pm and by 6 pm the pain was gone (which was about 24 hours after i started with monistat again).  Bottom line, I am petrified - - I am hoping I just have HPV and not herpes.  Do you think all the vulva pain is associated with yeast infection versus herpes - - again i responded to monistat twice within 24 hours (although the 2nd time I am not sure if it was the monistat for Famvir (Famvil was only in my body for 2 hours)).  I spoke to my prior partner, he has never been tested for HSV, so my mind is going wild........  The only thing that makes me feel a little better is that I was clean of STD 6 weeks after 2 encounters and he tells me he hasn't been with anyone else in the 5 months we've been together.  I keep hoping it's just a yeast infection and the gp "jumped to conclusion" on 9/3 based on my "symptoms" of yeast.  I have been searching the web like crazy to convince myself I have a yeast infection and not herpes.  If I have herpes not sure what I'll do.  I read on line that HPV can be accompanied by vulva pain too - - just not seeing that on the CDC website, so I'm not sure it's accurate.  As of Sunday, 9/4 my legs/lower buttocks have had muscle aches - - trying to discount that to the fact of doing "squats" 5X/day to check my vagina....   PLEASE help....I'm scared!
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Avatar universal
Thanks again for responding to my questions......it's nice to know someone is "listening".  I went back to Paperdahl and read your excerpt of why IgM is uselss in HSV testing, but perhaps I'm "reading between the lines" - - please set me straight.

In the following paragraph you indicate that in some infections IgM isn't detected at all, and in recurring the IgM can be present.  But you don't indicate that IgM can show positive when there is no recurring or current infection - - now I'm worried...

So, the real question:  can IgM show positive (my scores 1.08 & 1.10) if there are no infections at all (recurring or current)?



Your doctor was trained, as we all were, that the immune system first produces IgM antibodies in response to most infections, that IgG antibodies develop later, and IgM antibodies then fade away. Thus, an IgM response indicates recent infection. But the principles don't apply equally to all infections. Measurable IgM antibody sometimes doesn't appear at all in HSV infections, and in other cases, IgM does appear when HSV recurs; thus, absence of IgM doesn't mean the infection is chronic, and presence doesn't relably indicate early infection.
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101028 tn?1419603004
No we've never met.  I don't work at Terri's clinic - I help her out quite a bit on her message board on webmd.  I have been lucky enough to meet her in person and we've kept in touch for the last couple of years :)  She's actually who told me first that you were over here answering questions and to check you out :)

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Avatar universal
I live in the Portland area and have been to Dr. Warrens clinic (westover heights).  What a great place.  They are extemely professional and knowledgeable.  I would recommend them to anyone in the Portland area for any STD issue.  

One thing I have learned, don't go to your GP.  Go to the county or a clinic like Dr. Warrens.  Most GP's will diagnose you with protatitis and give you some antibiotics without even doing a test.  So if you didn't actually have anything (which seems to be the case most of the time here), then you will never actually know.  Or if there are anxiety "symptoms" then the ordeal will go for a long time for many of us worried, anxious and regretful people.
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Avatar universal
Thank you for responding to my questions.  Too say the least, I am still petrified.

I just got back good news and bad news again today.

The Good News:  The HSV swabs (2 of them, 2 days apart) both came back negative.  Since I didn't have actual lesions/sores - - I don't think they would have picked up a virus anyway.  So, although I was happy with the negative, still not convinced.

The Bad News:  My ob/gyn ran a non-specific HSV test (combined HSV1/2) and ran both IgG and IgM... The IgG is still negative (less than 0.09), however the IgM came back "positive" at 1.10 and the nurse told me that I am positive and we should continue treatment.  I challendged her based on all the knowledge I've been gaining on the web.  Unfortunatley, I am confused and paralyze...........I don't know who to "trust".  I spoke to a rep. at Quest Diagnostics (thought I was calling an STD hotline) and the women indicated that I had a current infection.  Okay, I know, it's the lab who sells the test, they have all the reason to keep running it and making money.  But, the women said the IgM test was highly sensitive and it's possible that it could be p/u another virus (as you had indicated).  Since I was just diagnosed with HPV, could it be possible that it's p/u the HPV virus?

So, now I have to wait another 6-8 weeks to make sure a HerpesSelect type specific test is run and what the results are.  I am petrified and VERY scared.  I wake up VERY early in the morning in a total panic - - I am not living my life at all.  

Just out of curiosity, what do you think: if I had an HSV1/2 run at 5 weeks and 6 weeks and the IgG showed up negative - - do you think I'm heading in the right direction?  I know I really need to wait 90-120 days, but I am scared stiff.

Also, since you've have many yeast infections........I am afraid I may have missed herpes symptoms thinking it was yeast.  I began feeling stinging on a Saturday, then by Tuesday morning I was so sore at the base of my vaginal entry, that I bought Monistat and used it Tuesday night.  By Wednesday night, the soreness was completely gone.  If it were the first outbreak of herpes, would Monistat have really helped?  I am concerned that the intense soreness lasted the 2-3 day period (when herpes sores can really hurt) and then the pain just subsided at the same time.

Thanks for your help - - it's nice to "talk to someone".  I am really really scared.

ps:  by the way, why don't the IgM tests work for Herpes?

Helpful - 0
239123 tn?1267647614
MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL
Last question first, why don't IgM tests work for herpes:  See the thread "Herpes test results" started 9/6/05 by username Paperdahl, where I posted a detailed explanation of the problems with IgM testing for HSV.

Tell your gynecologist it is wacko, not to mention wasteful of your money, to keep ordering useless tests.  (You may use more diplomatic lanaguage if you wish.)  The point is there is no point in ever ordering HSV blood tests that are not type-specific and based on measurement of antibody to HSV glycoprotein G--also discussed in the Paperdahl thread.

I'm afraid you're right; you're going to have to wait for another HerpeSelect test.  But I don't think you should be all that fearful about it all.  Based on all you have said so far, my prediction is it will be negative.  And if positive, genital herpes isn't all that big a deal for most people.  I don't mean to trivialize it; sometimes it is horrible, socially if not medically.  But for most people it settles into an unpleasant inconvenience.

Grace, have we met?  I've been to WHC a couple of times, although not for a few years.  Give Terri a hug for me.

HHH, MD
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101028 tn?1419603004
I am a co-moderator on the herpes homepage and also the picking up the peices yahoo herpes support group. I also am a frequent contributor on Terri Warren's herpes message board on webmd.  I try to stop in here now and then to see the answers Dr Handsfield is giving others and to learn from him.  I've had hsv2 for 19 years now and just like to help others learn more about it so they can get proper treatment for their herpes, know how to reduce transmission to a partner and learn to accept living with herpes.  I also try to help people get thru the sometimes confusing hsv testing process since oftentimes many doctors are still not up to date on it.  I"ve also had my fair share of yeast/bv infections too so I usually can be fairly helpful in that department too.
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Avatar universal
Okay, got some good news today........both the swabs for HSV have come back negative.  I am at least moving in the right direction.  I still need to wait for another blood test.  I am crossing my fingers/praying/holding my breathe etc.

Thanks again for you input........it gave me hope over the last few days.  Now I have to put my mind at rest until I have more blood work done.
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Avatar universal
Dr. HHH, I am still very scared, but do have a few specific questions for you.  I am still assuming I don't have HSV, but "god forbid" I do, I have a couple of questions for you:

(1)  I read that if you are HSV-2 positive, you are 2X as likely to contract HIV..... how do you contract (still only through sexually transmission)?  I assume you have to have been with an HIV infected person?  I am a bit concerned on the 2X as likley statistic - - not sure how to interpret.

(2)  I read on QuestDiagnostic site that antiviral (FAMVIR - - which is what my gp put me on) medications can effect the effectiveness of the HSV testing.  Do you know how it effects the testing?  I am a bit concerned - - my ob/gyn just drew blood again (after being on FAMVIR 3.5 days) - - will this effect the reading.

(3)  The gp took a swab culture of what she thought was an infected area (again no sores/lesions - just inflamation) - - if this comes back positive to HSV, can I assume I definitely have HSV?

(4)  2 days prior to the swab above, another GP took a swab of the red irritated skin right below my vaginal lips.  The test came back negative.  I know the swabs aren't 100% accurate - - you need the virus to be "active".  I can tell you emphatically that I was looking at my vagina everyday to see if anything was changing - - I got to the doctors office within 24 hours of the red patches showing up.  If it were HSV and the patches just developed, wouldn't the virus be present?

ps:  sorry for being such a "nut job",I am just scared to death....Thanks!
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Avatar universal
Grace, where are you from?  My curiosity is peaked... Why do you "check in" now and then?  Still petrified.
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101028 tn?1419603004
No I am not affiliated with this site.  I check in here now and then and today just felt the need to respond to a few posts :)
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239123 tn?1267647614
MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL
Grace isn't with the STD forum and to my knowledge we don't know each other, but she (guessing gender from the name) obviously is knowledgeable and I can't add anything important to her advice.

I don't know whether Grace might look at the online photo, but as a matter of policy I do not look at forum users' clinical photos.  It gets too close to practicing medicine from afar, which I cannot do.  I hope you understand.

HHH, MD
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Avatar universal
Thanks Grace, just for my benefit - - are you assoicated with this site?  Do you work with Dr. HHH?  Were you able to look at the website picture, etc......... Still trying to calm my nerves.
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101028 tn?1419603004
It's hard to know what is going on when everyone is telling you something different isn't it? If you like your regular gyn keep returning to that same doctor.

Yes frequently treating with yeast medications and topical steroids can cause worse irritation than the original infection!  At this point don't self treat unless you've seen a doctor who's examined your vaginal secretions and has detected yeast. Just looking at discharge isn't enough - testing and if possible examining your secretions under the microscope are in your best interest. If it seems like the topical steroids are making things worse than stop using them - many women don't tolerate them on our delicate genital area.  

Unless you have an obvious lesion to culture and type for herpes you need to wait 90-120 days after the last time you had sex with your past partner for the test to be most accurate.  It is frustrating that many doctor's do not understand how inaccurate the igm for herpes test really is.  It's not type specific and it can reactivate in the presence of other viral infections so it's just not worth your time. You only want a igg blood test for herpes.

The hpv can be treated several ways but considering how irritated in general things seem to be at the moment if you don't have a partner currently waiting until things aren't so irritated down yonder is probably best. If it's really hpv it'll still be there in a couple of weeks and you can take care of it then.  I would think that treating it now would just make things even more irritated!

Meanwhile try soaking in aveeno bath when things seem irritated. It's can be very comforting for irritating genital skin.  Dermaplast spray is a topical spray on anesthetic you can buy in most drug stores that provides relief too.  Even just cool, wet washcloths can be comforting.  

I hope you get answers and relief soon :)
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Avatar universal
Okay, this will be my last comment......things just keep coming to me.  Do you know if it's prevelant to have reactions to topical anti-fungal/steroids (that I was prescribed) - - ie:  could it have caused another yeast infection or skin irritation 1.5 weeks later?  Also, I found a picture of what I looked like when the doctor diagnosed me with HSV........according to the site, it's candidal vulvovaginits (the website is:  http://www.dermnetnz.org/fungal/candida.html).  If you can look at the picture (candida vulvovaginitis), would it be common for a gp to mistake it for herpes versus yeast?

Thanks.
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Avatar universal
one more thing...... In late April this year, my ob/gyn office did the herpes test (not sure if it was herpes select), the results were negative for both IgG and IgM.  I spoke to my ob/gyn yesterday to get some relief - - she said without doing another set of blood work, she couldn't say.  However, what she said is that it concerned her that the IgM was elevated (1.08 versus 0.09) since the April test.  I have now spoken to 3 doctors (2 gp's and 1 ob/gyn) that keep talking about the IgM, yet I keep reading on your forum how useless it is - - why do the doctors keep running the tests and referring to it?

Thanks.
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Avatar universal
Thanks for getting back to me..........I'm a bit relieved (still concerned).  How soon should I get another Herpes test (this time Herpes Select).  Now I have burning again on the lips of my vulva.......it's freaking me out - - hoping that it can't be herpes since I've had "on again/off again" symptoms over the past month.  Your thoughts?

Sorry for the confusing trail before........lots to say.  Also, in midst of all of this, I went off birth control once the first episode of yeast started (8/15, about 2.5 months after I started on birth control).  About 2.5 years ago, I went through same pain (and all the pain started around 3 months of being on the pill).  So, I linked the yeast infection/pain to birth control.  My OB/GYN dismisssed it.  So, who the heck knows.

The round of STD testing was most likely a "generic" blood serum test.........the gp that I initially talked to said he wasn't relying on the ImG reading (as it was border line and there are plenty of lab erros - - he recommended waiting a month to get another herpes test and see if the HSV 2 shows up in IgG).

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239123 tn?1267647614
MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL
There are lots of confusing questions in there.

First, about your herpes blood test results.  The HSV IgM (not img) result is meaningless; a positive result doesn't necessarily indicate infection, adn a negative one doesn't rule it out.  Further, the fact that your provider requested an IgM test suggests the IgG test also may be an unreliable type.  See numerous other threads on this forum about HSV diagnosis to learn the proper kind of test you need.  You should ask your provider to do a truly type-specific test, such as HerpeSelect produced by Focus Technologies; or the HSV-2 ELISA produced by Trinity Biotech.  Biokit and SureVue are still other options.  (None of these tests has an IgM version; all are IgG only.)

Having said all that, the odds are you don't have herpes, based on the test result you describe.  The main problem with the older/wrong tests are that positive results are difficult to interpret.  The negative IgG result probably means the result is reliably negative.  But if your provider didn't request one of the proper tests, it would be good to have it done now.

Second, visual diagnosis of herpes based on an "inflamed vulva", without visible ulcers or other lesions, is not reliable.  It could be, but such a case must be confirmed by lab testing--either a test for the virus itself or a positive blood test.  Anyway, diffuse inflammation sounds more like yeast than herpes, and I suspect your symptoms improved because of the Monistat and not Famvir.

Third, your HPV:  That your provider "saw a wart" probably is reliable.  On the other hand, the business about herpes vs yeast diagnosis may suggest your provider isn't really up to speed on STDs.  Warts themselves may itch a little, but don't produce generalized vulvar itching.  There is a condition called idiopathic vulvodynia (Latin for "vulvar pain of unknown cause"--so it doesn't tell you much).  It is associated with burning pain and/or itching, without visible redness or rash.  Some people believe HPV may be a cause, but that has never been proved.  That's where the HPV-itching association comes from; and the lack of proof is why CDC's HPV information doesn't mention it.  I agree with the large majority of experts who believe HPV does not cause vulvodynia.

Bottom lines:  I doubt you have herpes, but you should make sure you have a proper test.  Yeast seems possible.  If you have HPV/warts, that's probably not causing your symptoms.  I see no reason for you to continue to take Famvir.  Finally, consider seeking another opinion from a provider with substantial STD expertise.  You could visit your local health department STD clinic, for example.

Good luck--  HHH, MD
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