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tremors during sleep
I'm a 60 year old men, in excellent health, except for experiencing tremors during sleep that wake me up and have difficulty going back to sleep. As I start to fall sleep again, I feel these "rumbleling" (tremors) around my upper body. I immediately wake up again. These tremors last for about 10-15 seconds after I wake up. The first time I experienced this condition was exactly two years ago. It lasted for about four days and it simply went away. Except for minor incidents (by "minor" I mean I experience the tremors for about two nights and go away) with no major disruptions in my sleep patters. Last week, however, I experienced another episode which does not seem to be going away. The first two nights I simply could not go back to sleep at all. My body wanted to go back to sleep, but, as I mentioned above, everytime I fell sleep the tremors woke me up. I'm on my 9th day and there seems to be no sign of letting up. I went to see my doctor on the fourth day--He prescribed Zolpidem, which I have been taken since. Interestingly enough, even under the influence of the sleeping pill, the tremor wake me up, but they are short-lived since I go back to sleep almost immediately. My doctor said to take the medicine for about two weeks and essencially placed me on a "wait-and-see" mode. My concern at this point is "how long can I possobly survived on this medicine. Does any body "out there" know anything about this condition? As you can immagine, it is extremely debilitating. I'm, for my age, a very atheletic man who is the right things, no vices and bikes to work every day--About
twenty miles a day. Married with two grown children. My job is very stress-free and very enjoyable. Any ideas? Thank you very much.
twenty miles a day. Married with two grown children. My job is very stress-free and very enjoyable. Any ideas? Thank you very much.
Thanks Mike. I agree with a lot of what you say especially regarding gut dysbiosis. I've been seeing a functional medicine doctor who has run a couple of "poop tests" that show that the bacterial balance of my gut is way out of whack. Now whether those tests can be believed or are particularly diagnostic of anything I don't know. However, I *do* believe in the importance of gut health to overall physical and mental health. I've been taking probiotics and eating probiotic foods to help that. I went off the wagon a bit and ate some bad stuff not too long ago which may (or may not) be contributing to my most recent flare-up.
As to the anxiety part of this...well...I tended to be a bit stressed/anxious even before this happened so it's probably not a surprise that the vibrations and lack of sleep (and maybe gut problems) have exacerbated that.
I also like to exercise although not at the boot camp level. For me, I've thought that overdoing my exercise routine might actually cause an uptick in the intensity of my vibrations. I haven't kept track of that well enough to know for sure. Too many variables. For example, my only son just went away to college and I'm pretty anxious about that. So I upped my exercise which often helps me deal with anxiety. So did my vibrations increase because I'm more anxious or did they increase because I over-exercised? Or because I ate lots of gluteny, sugary things a week ago? Really hard to tell...
-b
As to the anxiety part of this...well...I tended to be a bit stressed/anxious even before this happened so it's probably not a surprise that the vibrations and lack of sleep (and maybe gut problems) have exacerbated that.
I also like to exercise although not at the boot camp level. For me, I've thought that overdoing my exercise routine might actually cause an uptick in the intensity of my vibrations. I haven't kept track of that well enough to know for sure. Too many variables. For example, my only son just went away to college and I'm pretty anxious about that. So I upped my exercise which often helps me deal with anxiety. So did my vibrations increase because I'm more anxious or did they increase because I over-exercised? Or because I ate lots of gluteny, sugary things a week ago? Really hard to tell...
-b
The sample I got was by Trace Minerals and just says Liquid Magnesium 300mg. From what I can tell it's magnesium citrate with a bit of chloride but it's tough to tell from the bottle. I went to buy it and they are out so I ended up trying Ionic Magnesium also by Trace Minerals. I haven't noticed a difference between the 2. I'm not sure what that means - maybe the additional 300-400mg of magnesium is what I needed (for a total with the glycinate of 1,000mg or so), I'm absorbing the liquid better or it's the protein. Once things "settle out" I'll experiment a bit and see if I can figure out what is making the difference. Could be none of the above - just random chance - wouldn't be the 1st time.
Sympathetic/parasympathetic - yeah, I've had those same conversations and am somewhat in agreement however I don't believe that to be the root cause. In my opinion something is out of balance possibly causing a sympathetic/parasympathetic imbalance. I have absolutely no feelings/signs/symptoms of anxiety with the tremors. However, I don't think that rules out some type of sympathetic/parasympathetic imbalance - I suspect that can manifest in any number of ways. But if this is the case then I keep going back to why. What is the root cause?
My trigger was GI so I keep coming back to nutritional imbalance caused by absorption issues. Or possibly dysbiosis causing who knows what reaction in the body?
I can say with almost 100% certainly that my tremors are related to my overall feeling of health. I like being physically active and tend to push myself. I do a bootcamp style workout 5 days a week and can use that as somewhat of a benchmark since the intensity is pretty consistent. Looking over the last year and a half I can say that when my tremors are minimal (or gone for that 6 month period) the bootcamps seem easier and my recovery is much better/faster. When the tremors are more significant I struggle much more.
Sympathetic/parasympathetic - yeah, I've had those same conversations and am somewhat in agreement however I don't believe that to be the root cause. In my opinion something is out of balance possibly causing a sympathetic/parasympathetic imbalance. I have absolutely no feelings/signs/symptoms of anxiety with the tremors. However, I don't think that rules out some type of sympathetic/parasympathetic imbalance - I suspect that can manifest in any number of ways. But if this is the case then I keep going back to why. What is the root cause?
My trigger was GI so I keep coming back to nutritional imbalance caused by absorption issues. Or possibly dysbiosis causing who knows what reaction in the body?
I can say with almost 100% certainly that my tremors are related to my overall feeling of health. I like being physically active and tend to push myself. I do a bootcamp style workout 5 days a week and can use that as somewhat of a benchmark since the intensity is pretty consistent. Looking over the last year and a half I can say that when my tremors are minimal (or gone for that 6 month period) the bootcamps seem easier and my recovery is much better/faster. When the tremors are more significant I struggle much more.
Urinating is part of the fight-or-flight response of the sympathetic nervous system. I think the vibrations are a type of stress or anxiety reaction and so part of that could be increased urine output. This comes and goes for me. When the vibrations are at their worst, I tend to have to get up and pee. This is not to say that the vibrations are "just anxiety" as one neurologist said to me.
Which liquid Mag did you try? I tried one the "ionic" liquid Mags a while ago, but didn't notice much of a difference. Maybe I'll see if I still have some and try it again.
-b
Which liquid Mag did you try? I tried one the "ionic" liquid Mags a while ago, but didn't notice much of a difference. Maybe I'll see if I still have some and try it again.
-b
Toby - 1 easy source of potassium I forgot to mention was low sodium V8.
Does anyone have issues with frequent urination? There seems to be a correlation between how much I'm shaking and how many time I have to get up and pee at night. Yet another thing that has pointed me towards electrolytes. I can say with some level of confidence that when I pee more I shake more and vice versa.
How about protein? I recently came across something that talks about how protein is needed for electrolyte balance. I'm fairly active - some type of fairly intense exercise daily - and I've been told that I should probably be getting more protein than I am. I never really paid much attention to grams/day so I can't say exactly where I was at - but I agree that it was probably less than I should have been getting.
I picked-up a protein supplement (plant based to try something different) from the local health food store about a week ago. While I was in there the lady gave me a sample of a liquid magnesium.
I tried both and have noticed an improvement. Because I did both at the same time I can't say which made the difference but I'm happy to continue both for a while to see what happens. I've read and been told numerous times that magnesium can be a bit tricky from an absorption standpoint - everyone is different and some have better luck with one form over another.
Does anyone have issues with frequent urination? There seems to be a correlation between how much I'm shaking and how many time I have to get up and pee at night. Yet another thing that has pointed me towards electrolytes. I can say with some level of confidence that when I pee more I shake more and vice versa.
How about protein? I recently came across something that talks about how protein is needed for electrolyte balance. I'm fairly active - some type of fairly intense exercise daily - and I've been told that I should probably be getting more protein than I am. I never really paid much attention to grams/day so I can't say exactly where I was at - but I agree that it was probably less than I should have been getting.
I picked-up a protein supplement (plant based to try something different) from the local health food store about a week ago. While I was in there the lady gave me a sample of a liquid magnesium.
I tried both and have noticed an improvement. Because I did both at the same time I can't say which made the difference but I'm happy to continue both for a while to see what happens. I've read and been told numerous times that magnesium can be a bit tricky from an absorption standpoint - everyone is different and some have better luck with one form over another.
Excellent info Mike. Thanks!. Definitely some things in common with you. My problems started after a really bad reaction to an antibiotic called Cipro. And then maybe got worse after a presumptive diagnosis of Lyme by a Lyme MD who treated me with additional strong antibiotics for a month. It was supposed to be 2 months, but I quit after a month. Antibiotics destroy the good and bad bacteria in the gut and I've had some significant GI problems for many months which are just now starting to die down. I had some additional issues that seemed neurological in nature which also went away.
Just like you and Toby, I'm now left with tinnitus and the sleep vibrations. My body temp also tends to be low (97s). I also went through a couple of periods of having heart palpitations (afib). These episodes tended to coincide with some GI issues. For example, I would most often get them after dinner especially if I lay down and this would be accompanied by some reflux. I wore a Holter monitor for 48 hours which caught a number of episodes. The cardiologist I saw called it "vagally mediated afib" and said it wasn't serious. He also acknowledged that there's some connection between afib and reflux that is not well-understood. Anyway, I haven't had any afib episodes (which also tended to wake me up in the middle of the night) in a while so that's a relief.
I also take Magnesium which helps a bit, but not enough. I'm taking about 800mg of Mag Glycinate before bed. The calcium connection is interesting. Until recently, I was also pounding yogurt in order to help with the GI problems. So that's potentially lots of calcium. I haven't had any yogurt in a while because I just haven't gotten around to buying any and now that I think of it, my vibrations have reduced in intensity a bit. So that's very interesting...
I was also on a pretty low-carb diet because I was having trouble controlling my blood sugar (probably due to lack of sleep). I recently said screw it and had some potatoes so maybe the potassium also helped with the vibrations. I seem to remember Toby mentioning that his vibrations are worse when he eats sugar. Aside from being excitatory, sugar can also cause gut problems if, for example, you have some sort of yeast infection (like Candida) brewing...
The whole GI connection is very interesting. As you may know, there are lots of medical practitioners now who believe that gut health is everything. And that gut dysbiosis is the root of all sorts of diseases from IBS to auto-immune diseases and alzheimers. For a while now, I've believed that the sleep vibration thing is some sort of vagus nerve dysfunction. The vagus nerve runs from your GI system to your brain. This is why I think (at least for me), deep diaghrammatic breathing exercises stop the vibrations within about 10 seconds. It would also explain the heart palpitations which even the cardiologist referred to as "vagally-mediated". It would also explain why this often feels like a breathing problem. And it may actually be a breathing problem since autonomic nervous system functions (like breathing during sleep) are controlled via the vagus nerve.
Lastly, I just wanted to say that my symptoms are very similar to yours Mike. My vibrations are also worse early in the morning (between say 5 and 7 am). I also feel "out of sorts" in the morning and the worse the vibrations, the worse I feel and the longer it takes for that feeling to wear off. For me, this typically involves some amount of anxiety and just sort of feeling disconnected and confused. Of course, sleep deprivation itself could contribute to this and to other issues we're experiencing.
So I'm going to try boosting my potassium a bit and reducing calcium to see what happens.
Sorry the above was so disconnected. I'm writing this at work and trying to do multiple things at once with a brain that is not functioning as well as it used to.
Again, thanks for the info Mike. I think this has been the most encouraging exchange we've had since we all joined this thread.
Just like you and Toby, I'm now left with tinnitus and the sleep vibrations. My body temp also tends to be low (97s). I also went through a couple of periods of having heart palpitations (afib). These episodes tended to coincide with some GI issues. For example, I would most often get them after dinner especially if I lay down and this would be accompanied by some reflux. I wore a Holter monitor for 48 hours which caught a number of episodes. The cardiologist I saw called it "vagally mediated afib" and said it wasn't serious. He also acknowledged that there's some connection between afib and reflux that is not well-understood. Anyway, I haven't had any afib episodes (which also tended to wake me up in the middle of the night) in a while so that's a relief.
I also take Magnesium which helps a bit, but not enough. I'm taking about 800mg of Mag Glycinate before bed. The calcium connection is interesting. Until recently, I was also pounding yogurt in order to help with the GI problems. So that's potentially lots of calcium. I haven't had any yogurt in a while because I just haven't gotten around to buying any and now that I think of it, my vibrations have reduced in intensity a bit. So that's very interesting...
I was also on a pretty low-carb diet because I was having trouble controlling my blood sugar (probably due to lack of sleep). I recently said screw it and had some potatoes so maybe the potassium also helped with the vibrations. I seem to remember Toby mentioning that his vibrations are worse when he eats sugar. Aside from being excitatory, sugar can also cause gut problems if, for example, you have some sort of yeast infection (like Candida) brewing...
The whole GI connection is very interesting. As you may know, there are lots of medical practitioners now who believe that gut health is everything. And that gut dysbiosis is the root of all sorts of diseases from IBS to auto-immune diseases and alzheimers. For a while now, I've believed that the sleep vibration thing is some sort of vagus nerve dysfunction. The vagus nerve runs from your GI system to your brain. This is why I think (at least for me), deep diaghrammatic breathing exercises stop the vibrations within about 10 seconds. It would also explain the heart palpitations which even the cardiologist referred to as "vagally-mediated". It would also explain why this often feels like a breathing problem. And it may actually be a breathing problem since autonomic nervous system functions (like breathing during sleep) are controlled via the vagus nerve.
Lastly, I just wanted to say that my symptoms are very similar to yours Mike. My vibrations are also worse early in the morning (between say 5 and 7 am). I also feel "out of sorts" in the morning and the worse the vibrations, the worse I feel and the longer it takes for that feeling to wear off. For me, this typically involves some amount of anxiety and just sort of feeling disconnected and confused. Of course, sleep deprivation itself could contribute to this and to other issues we're experiencing.
So I'm going to try boosting my potassium a bit and reducing calcium to see what happens.
Sorry the above was so disconnected. I'm writing this at work and trying to do multiple things at once with a brain that is not functioning as well as it used to.
Again, thanks for the info Mike. I think this has been the most encouraging exchange we've had since we all joined this thread.
Hey Toby,
For potassium I've been eating a lot more potassium rich foods - bananas, orange juice, coconut water, potatoes, etc. The downside is that it seems most foods that are high in potassium are also high in carbs and/or natural sugars.
In addition to the foods I've been mixing NuSalt into water along with a little salt. NuSalt is potassium chloride. I'm not sure how well absorbed it is so I tend to lean more towards foods. Plus too much potassium in the body is not a good thing. That being said, I seem to feel a bit better with more potassium rather than less - so I'm fairly liberal with the NuSalt. I'd go slow with that though to make sure you don't have any negative reactions.
Since all of this nonsense started I've had 2 things that seem to be connected but I'm not sure exactly how. Tinnitus and palpitations. I had neither before all of this fun stated and for that 6 month period without tremors I had no tinnitus and no palpitations. So there's definitely a connection. Now they are both minimal.
Since I started upping the potassium I've noticed that my tinnitus had decreased - in fact I'm using that as somewhat of a marker for my potassium levels. On a good day I'll have no tinnitus - at least for periods of time.
Body temp - not sure. A few years ago with all the GI fun I did notice it was low - no idea why - thyroid was fine. Haven't checked in a long time though - I'll dig out the thermometer and let you know.
Magnesium - what form are you taking? I've tried a number of different ones and for me glycinate in capsules (Solaray) seems to be best absorbed.
For potassium I've been eating a lot more potassium rich foods - bananas, orange juice, coconut water, potatoes, etc. The downside is that it seems most foods that are high in potassium are also high in carbs and/or natural sugars.
In addition to the foods I've been mixing NuSalt into water along with a little salt. NuSalt is potassium chloride. I'm not sure how well absorbed it is so I tend to lean more towards foods. Plus too much potassium in the body is not a good thing. That being said, I seem to feel a bit better with more potassium rather than less - so I'm fairly liberal with the NuSalt. I'd go slow with that though to make sure you don't have any negative reactions.
Since all of this nonsense started I've had 2 things that seem to be connected but I'm not sure exactly how. Tinnitus and palpitations. I had neither before all of this fun stated and for that 6 month period without tremors I had no tinnitus and no palpitations. So there's definitely a connection. Now they are both minimal.
Since I started upping the potassium I've noticed that my tinnitus had decreased - in fact I'm using that as somewhat of a marker for my potassium levels. On a good day I'll have no tinnitus - at least for periods of time.
Body temp - not sure. A few years ago with all the GI fun I did notice it was low - no idea why - thyroid was fine. Haven't checked in a long time though - I'll dig out the thermometer and let you know.
Magnesium - what form are you taking? I've tried a number of different ones and for me glycinate in capsules (Solaray) seems to be best absorbed.
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