Aa
Do It Anyway
People are often unreasonable, illogical and self-centered;
Forgive them anyway.
If you are kind, people may accuse you
of selfish, ulterior motives;
Be kind anyway.
If you are successful, you will win some
false friends and some true enemies;
Succeed anyway.
If you are honest and frank, people may cheat you;
Be honest and frank anyway.
What you spend years building,
someone could destroy overnight;
Build anyway.
If you find serenity and happiness,
they may be jealous;
Be happy anyway.
The good you do today, people will
forget tomorrow,
Do good anyway.
Give the world the best you have, and
it may never be enough;
Give the world the best you've got ... anyway.
You see, in the final analysis, it is
between you and God,
It never was between you and them anyway..
Agree with you
If this were the first thread I had read on this forum I wouldn't have read the second... I came here in a very dark moment, looking for anything to help me lift my head and my heart. I would have run from this discussion like a hare from a fox. Lots of good points were made, I even wrote some notes thanking the posters for their shared views. But the fact remains that my spirit would have withered rather than been revived.
I am so glad this is not the first thread I read!
I am so glad this is not the first thread I read!
Looks like there are a lot of similarities between Jews and Islam
You too have a great weekend
You too have a great weekend
I originally started this as a few comments tacked on the end of my reply to Rahim, above, but as it grew, I decided that you deserved the dignity of your own, independent answer.
I am sorry if you misunderstood the intent of my comments.I am a writer, and so I used, "you people" to avoid repeating in the same sentence "the majority population, the Christians", not meaning it in the pejorative, separatist sense in which you took it. I don't see how you failed to see my mention of the religious integration of my own family. I have always felt like a member of my brother-in-law's family, since the day they married and his grandfather addressed ma as ":grandson". And that was the second time we had met. I too mourned the sudden death of my nephew's grandpa - not for them, but because he was great man, who did all that I described even though he never understood anything about Judaism, and was not a particularly observant Christian, either. He had two strong faiths - the happiness of his family and making music (as a hobby) He was a great man, and my heart feels heavy as I type this.
I HAD expressed my feelings and personal philosophy: "While there is life there is hope." This is hard won for a man living with chronic depression, anxiety and pain. I have to say that to myself a dozen times each day, or I would have killed myself years ago - I almost did a few dozen times, and ended up in the psych hospital once. So it is NOT just empty words.
Then in response to Rahim's questions about Hajr/Hagar, I presented him with a minor Genesis puzzle, to which I was sure he knew the answer.Just an intellectual exercise, not a "proof text" to convert anyone. We are both Children of Abraham, as he pointed out. It was a little teasing game.
By the way, congratulations on your success. This is quite genuine. I know how important to your personal redemption this act is to you. And I also understand how empty your friend's roots, faith and traditions were to him, so if he gets spiritual nourishment in your church, I am very glad for him. I believe that we all need a concious connection with a Power Greater Than Ourselves, and if his connection with Judaism was not bringing him spiritual comfort and nourishment, than I am genuinely happy he has found a Spiritual home.
Again, not empty words, but my true believe. A member of my family converted to one of the major branches of Islam in college, even going to Court and changing his name. We all still love him, and didn't care what name was on his medical school degree, he was still our Prez (our childhood nickname for Alexander). He, on the other hand, has given up on any of the family ever calling him by his real name - his two aunts have been trying to get us to call them something other than what is on their birth certificates for 40 years - and gave up about 5 years ago. By the way, Ike is NOT the name on my birth certificate, but MY childhood nickname, the name my mother's dad used all his life. The schools made my parents top calling me that when I was 5, so my "kid" sister never knew the name. when I started using the name again, I couldn't get any of my relatives (on my dad's side of the family) to use it.
I am not as bigoted as you think I am. I am just asking to be allowed my Constitutional right to practice MY religion in peace. I pass street preacher's daily here in New York. Most would embarrass you, since they are hardly making a good representation of themselves as people, let alone preachers. But that is THEIR right - and I have the right to ignore them. I'm just asking you to live up to your own statement that this forum is a welcoming, safe space for all faiths, and those of no faith.
The source of that Amendment to the Constitution was the strong believe on the part of President George Washington that non-Christians, who fought for the Revolution in disproportionately high numbers and suffered more under British domination when caught, had an equal right to enjoy the fruits of the Revolution. Before the constitution was even signed, he wrote a letter to a synagogue in (I think it it was Rhode Island). The membership had written him a letter congratulating him in his First Inauguration, and he wrote back a beautiful and long letter instead of just a thank you, stating his belief that the Children of Abraham were equal citizens in this new republic, I interesting wording, since the most highly persecuted in minority in America right now are the our sisters and brothers, the OTHER Children of Abraham - who also fought and died disproportionately high numbers in the revolution.
So many Americans think that the clause "Congress shall establish no religion" was meant that no particular Protestant denomination would be predominant, but that was never how that part of the Constitution was interpreted.
Unfortunately, our government and people has broken that promise almost as often as it broke its treaties and promises to Native Americans.
Perhaps what I'm trying to do is some education, that's all. If I insulted you, I apologize.
Ike (and no, I am NOT telling you my REAL name - I hate it and use it only when necessary)
I am sorry if you misunderstood the intent of my comments.I am a writer, and so I used, "you people" to avoid repeating in the same sentence "the majority population, the Christians", not meaning it in the pejorative, separatist sense in which you took it. I don't see how you failed to see my mention of the religious integration of my own family. I have always felt like a member of my brother-in-law's family, since the day they married and his grandfather addressed ma as ":grandson". And that was the second time we had met. I too mourned the sudden death of my nephew's grandpa - not for them, but because he was great man, who did all that I described even though he never understood anything about Judaism, and was not a particularly observant Christian, either. He had two strong faiths - the happiness of his family and making music (as a hobby) He was a great man, and my heart feels heavy as I type this.
I HAD expressed my feelings and personal philosophy: "While there is life there is hope." This is hard won for a man living with chronic depression, anxiety and pain. I have to say that to myself a dozen times each day, or I would have killed myself years ago - I almost did a few dozen times, and ended up in the psych hospital once. So it is NOT just empty words.
Then in response to Rahim's questions about Hajr/Hagar, I presented him with a minor Genesis puzzle, to which I was sure he knew the answer.Just an intellectual exercise, not a "proof text" to convert anyone. We are both Children of Abraham, as he pointed out. It was a little teasing game.
By the way, congratulations on your success. This is quite genuine. I know how important to your personal redemption this act is to you. And I also understand how empty your friend's roots, faith and traditions were to him, so if he gets spiritual nourishment in your church, I am very glad for him. I believe that we all need a concious connection with a Power Greater Than Ourselves, and if his connection with Judaism was not bringing him spiritual comfort and nourishment, than I am genuinely happy he has found a Spiritual home.
Again, not empty words, but my true believe. A member of my family converted to one of the major branches of Islam in college, even going to Court and changing his name. We all still love him, and didn't care what name was on his medical school degree, he was still our Prez (our childhood nickname for Alexander). He, on the other hand, has given up on any of the family ever calling him by his real name - his two aunts have been trying to get us to call them something other than what is on their birth certificates for 40 years - and gave up about 5 years ago. By the way, Ike is NOT the name on my birth certificate, but MY childhood nickname, the name my mother's dad used all his life. The schools made my parents top calling me that when I was 5, so my "kid" sister never knew the name. when I started using the name again, I couldn't get any of my relatives (on my dad's side of the family) to use it.
I am not as bigoted as you think I am. I am just asking to be allowed my Constitutional right to practice MY religion in peace. I pass street preacher's daily here in New York. Most would embarrass you, since they are hardly making a good representation of themselves as people, let alone preachers. But that is THEIR right - and I have the right to ignore them. I'm just asking you to live up to your own statement that this forum is a welcoming, safe space for all faiths, and those of no faith.
The source of that Amendment to the Constitution was the strong believe on the part of President George Washington that non-Christians, who fought for the Revolution in disproportionately high numbers and suffered more under British domination when caught, had an equal right to enjoy the fruits of the Revolution. Before the constitution was even signed, he wrote a letter to a synagogue in (I think it it was Rhode Island). The membership had written him a letter congratulating him in his First Inauguration, and he wrote back a beautiful and long letter instead of just a thank you, stating his belief that the Children of Abraham were equal citizens in this new republic, I interesting wording, since the most highly persecuted in minority in America right now are the our sisters and brothers, the OTHER Children of Abraham - who also fought and died disproportionately high numbers in the revolution.
So many Americans think that the clause "Congress shall establish no religion" was meant that no particular Protestant denomination would be predominant, but that was never how that part of the Constitution was interpreted.
Unfortunately, our government and people has broken that promise almost as often as it broke its treaties and promises to Native Americans.
Perhaps what I'm trying to do is some education, that's all. If I insulted you, I apologize.
Ike (and no, I am NOT telling you my REAL name - I hate it and use it only when necessary)
Great Midrash:
Actually, he turns to his brother and says, "Let us bury our father together.".
If you notice, he was not at his own mother's burial. He is not mentioned at being at his mother's burial. He is in fact not mentioned as being with Abraham since leaving him after the attempted Sacrifice, which Jewish tradition says happened to him when he was an adult.
This was both sons forgiving their dead father for unforgivable acts of almost causing both of their deaths out of blind obedience. An act of great spiritual strength, I feel.
Here in Brooklyn, we have a large, very diverse Islamic population, and a large, equally diverse Jewish population. (some Sephardic Jews com from the same countries as the Moslems.) Just as the Islamic American community has to bear the burden of their fanatics, we, too, have bear the burden of OUR extremists. We have political extremists, and religious extremists.
We also have a wonderful organization called "The Children of Abraham", formed, with the help of some peace-loving Christians, to foster communications and community feeling between liberal Jewish and Islamic faith communities. I belong to a Conservative congregation, despite it's name, a liberal movement with a strong dedication to social justice. (If you look at the historic photo of Martin Luther King, of beloved memory, leading the March across Selma Bridge, his arms are linked with two bearded white men.One of them was the Chancellor of our Seminary, the other was the founder of the Reconstructionist movement of Judaism - originally a professor at our seminary.) We have been involved with the Children of Abraham since it started.
One Friday night, I was one of the members who acted as hosts to a vegetarian pot luck dinner and Friday night service for our Moslem guests. The volunteer hosts gave tours of our sanctuary to our guests when they arrived, explaining the features, even opening the Holy Ark to show them the Torah Scrolls (we only put our silver on our scrolls for the High Holy Days - they stay in the bank the rest of the year) We had a sample page to show the difference between the special calligraphy used on Torah Scrolls (which makes reading them more difficult, at least for me) and more modern Hebrew. We are proud of our building, on the National Registry of Historic Buildings for the unique architecture. We each sat with a guest to help them understand the Service. (The Friday night service is fairly short, but quite lovely, and has some very interesting Mystical symbolism built into it.) I escorted two lovely women from two different mosques, strangers to one another. So the program was helping the Islamic communities meet each other, too.
We have an annual peace march across the Brooklyn Bridge to City Hall.
A few years ago, our Festival of Succot (succos), when we eat outside in booths, coincided with Ramadan, and we hosted a mosque for a pot luck vegetarian luncheon (all of our frequent pot luck meals are vegetarian - many of our members do not eat meat) in our succah, explaining the significance, and allowing them to observe our various rituals.
The time came for one of the prayers, and we invited the mosque to use our lower sanctuary instead of the courtyard, which would have been crowded and public, We had to confess that when the original congregation bought the land in the early 1920's they could not get a plot which allowed them to build a synagogue that face East, as is the tradition. In fact - our Arks (we have one in each sanctuary) face WEST. It is an often told story that when our current rabbi lead her first service, she announced. "We will now raise and face east for the (18 Benedictions) Silent Prayer" The entire congregation got up and turned their backs to her to face the back wall!
Of course, the Imam had a compass - And TRUE east is actually the right corner of the back of the room. New Yorkers are used to "East and West" being defined by the grid of our streets, which is not true north/south.
There is a major modern mosque in upper Manhattan built to True East, and it sits at an apparent odd angle in the middle of the plot of land. I actually think it adds character to the neighborhood. (I used to work less than a mile from it.)
Passing it one morning, when it must have been a major holy day, was a real education. I was on a buss stalled in traffic, so I got to observe dozens of people heading in; men in Arab robes; people in African dress; white people with blonde hair in suits and dresses; people in Indonesian sarongs...
Have a great, peaceful weekend
Ike
Actually, he turns to his brother and says, "Let us bury our father together.".
If you notice, he was not at his own mother's burial. He is not mentioned at being at his mother's burial. He is in fact not mentioned as being with Abraham since leaving him after the attempted Sacrifice, which Jewish tradition says happened to him when he was an adult.
This was both sons forgiving their dead father for unforgivable acts of almost causing both of their deaths out of blind obedience. An act of great spiritual strength, I feel.
Here in Brooklyn, we have a large, very diverse Islamic population, and a large, equally diverse Jewish population. (some Sephardic Jews com from the same countries as the Moslems.) Just as the Islamic American community has to bear the burden of their fanatics, we, too, have bear the burden of OUR extremists. We have political extremists, and religious extremists.
We also have a wonderful organization called "The Children of Abraham", formed, with the help of some peace-loving Christians, to foster communications and community feeling between liberal Jewish and Islamic faith communities. I belong to a Conservative congregation, despite it's name, a liberal movement with a strong dedication to social justice. (If you look at the historic photo of Martin Luther King, of beloved memory, leading the March across Selma Bridge, his arms are linked with two bearded white men.One of them was the Chancellor of our Seminary, the other was the founder of the Reconstructionist movement of Judaism - originally a professor at our seminary.) We have been involved with the Children of Abraham since it started.
One Friday night, I was one of the members who acted as hosts to a vegetarian pot luck dinner and Friday night service for our Moslem guests. The volunteer hosts gave tours of our sanctuary to our guests when they arrived, explaining the features, even opening the Holy Ark to show them the Torah Scrolls (we only put our silver on our scrolls for the High Holy Days - they stay in the bank the rest of the year) We had a sample page to show the difference between the special calligraphy used on Torah Scrolls (which makes reading them more difficult, at least for me) and more modern Hebrew. We are proud of our building, on the National Registry of Historic Buildings for the unique architecture. We each sat with a guest to help them understand the Service. (The Friday night service is fairly short, but quite lovely, and has some very interesting Mystical symbolism built into it.) I escorted two lovely women from two different mosques, strangers to one another. So the program was helping the Islamic communities meet each other, too.
We have an annual peace march across the Brooklyn Bridge to City Hall.
A few years ago, our Festival of Succot (succos), when we eat outside in booths, coincided with Ramadan, and we hosted a mosque for a pot luck vegetarian luncheon (all of our frequent pot luck meals are vegetarian - many of our members do not eat meat) in our succah, explaining the significance, and allowing them to observe our various rituals.
The time came for one of the prayers, and we invited the mosque to use our lower sanctuary instead of the courtyard, which would have been crowded and public, We had to confess that when the original congregation bought the land in the early 1920's they could not get a plot which allowed them to build a synagogue that face East, as is the tradition. In fact - our Arks (we have one in each sanctuary) face WEST. It is an often told story that when our current rabbi lead her first service, she announced. "We will now raise and face east for the (18 Benedictions) Silent Prayer" The entire congregation got up and turned their backs to her to face the back wall!
Of course, the Imam had a compass - And TRUE east is actually the right corner of the back of the room. New Yorkers are used to "East and West" being defined by the grid of our streets, which is not true north/south.
There is a major modern mosque in upper Manhattan built to True East, and it sits at an apparent odd angle in the middle of the plot of land. I actually think it adds character to the neighborhood. (I used to work less than a mile from it.)
Passing it one morning, when it must have been a major holy day, was a real education. I was on a buss stalled in traffic, so I got to observe dozens of people heading in; men in Arab robes; people in African dress; white people with blonde hair in suits and dresses; people in Indonesian sarongs...
Have a great, peaceful weekend
Ike
Very good point,
When does the throwing of the stones stop and the forgiveness begin? Based on personal experience I have found it important to not worry about how the message is delivered. The important thing for me is to understand the message so I can be of service in the best possible way. When I start to focus on the shortcomings of others I begin to lose sight of the humble path i was placed on.
I wouldn't know where to start. You are too much. Oh and btw, I don't think your last posts fit into the forum. You were discussing the bible and not ''your feelings," as you told me to do. So scripture is okay as long as it's you that's discussing it?
And Gee, I guess you didn't read that I said it more than once that our conversation was best suited on the Biblical Forum.
Ike, I could go into alot of what you said, but its not worth it. Your true "colors" are showing.
I see that you are very prejudice by your "you people" comment.
And the fact that you believe I think of others as "heathens." I don't like when people put words in my mouth nor do I like when people twist my words.
BTW.....IF you ever do find a personal/individual relationship with a Higher Power, you won't be calling him "Higher Power". You will call Him Jesus....
I had a great day today in that a Jewish person that I have been doing some work for - he accepted Jesus today. So nothing can put me in a bad mood today - not even your rude post to me.
Shalom babee.
And Gee, I guess you didn't read that I said it more than once that our conversation was best suited on the Biblical Forum.
Ike, I could go into alot of what you said, but its not worth it. Your true "colors" are showing.
I see that you are very prejudice by your "you people" comment.
And the fact that you believe I think of others as "heathens." I don't like when people put words in my mouth nor do I like when people twist my words.
BTW.....IF you ever do find a personal/individual relationship with a Higher Power, you won't be calling him "Higher Power". You will call Him Jesus....
I had a great day today in that a Jewish person that I have been doing some work for - he accepted Jesus today. So nothing can put me in a bad mood today - not even your rude post to me.
Shalom babee.
well
I think he went after Ishmael :
Where did Isaac go? Well, when we next hear from Isaac in Chapter 24, verse 62, Sarah has passed away. Isaac is about to meet Rebecca for the first time. Here is what the text says: “Now Isaac was coming from the direction of Be’er Lachai Ro’i, for he was living in the Negev.” So the Torah tells us where Isaac has been: he has been living at Be’er Lachai Ro’i. And what is Be’er Lachai Ro’i? We learn of it in Chapter 16 of Genesis. Sarah’s slave Hagar, who is pregnant with Abraham’s child, has run away from Abraham and Sarah because of Sarah’s cruel treatment of her. She stops at a spring. An angel of God calls to her and promises her that she will bear a son and that all will be well. Hagar must return to her mistress. Hagar calls to God and says, “You are El Ro’i”, meaning, “you are the God who sees me”. Thus that spring bears the name Be’er Lachai Ro’i, The Well of the Living One Who Sees Me. The son she bears to Abraham she names Ishmael, meaning “God hears”.
When Hagar and Ishmael are ultimately banished to the wilderness, I say they returned to this oasis, and Hagar raised her son there. And apparently, this is where Isaac is living as well in the wake of the akedah. What are we to make of this?
I say: Isaac and Ishmael loved each other. I say: Isaac’s heart was broken when his brother Ishmael and his brother’s mother Hagar were forced to leave their home. Ishmael was his brother, and Hagar was a second mother to him. They were his family. Isaac traveled there out of his yearning to make whole his broken family. In some ways every family is broken. We all share this yearning to make whole, to bring together, to repair the rifts in our families. Sometimes we can make a difference, sometimes there is nothing that can be done. Often, a death in the family paradoxically opens the door to healing. Perhaps Sarah’s death opened this door. I cannot tell you how many times I have spoken with families in which a family member is dying or has just passed, and a family member says to me: yes, of course, it’s terribly hard and sad, but we haven’t been together like this in so many years, it is really beautiful, too. I haven’t felt this close to my family in years, they will tell me, it is such a gift. It is supreme grace when this kind of healing takes place for a family; one cannot plan on it or count on it, but one can be open to the possibility, and ready to reconcile. The Jewish name for this healing is teshuvah.
In my midrash, Isaac does teshuvah with Ishmael. He does what he can to put their parents’ conflicts behind them, and to restore their bond as brothers.
The Torah gives us a signal that Isaac and Ishmael did indeed reconcile. The next time we hear about the two of them is at the time of Abraham’s death. The Torah says, “And Abraham died at a ripe old age…His sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah… there Abraham and Sarah his wife were buried.” Isaac and Ishmael bury their father together. This alone would not be enough to assume the brothers had done teshuvah with each other, but the Torah then adds: “After the death of Abraham, God blessed Isaac, and Isaac settled at Be’er Lachai Ro’i.” I say: Isaac and Ishmael reconciled, at the Well of the Living One Who Sees Me.
For Be’er Lachai Ro’i is much more than a physical location, it is a state of being, it is a condition of consciousness. It is the place where we are seen, truly, for who we are: children of the divine, unique individuals, beings of infinite worth. It is the place where God sees Ishmael “as he is”, as a boy in desperate need of help, and responds. It is the well that Jacob figuratively stands by when he approaches his brother Esau and looks him in the face for the first time, and exclaims, “Seeing you is liking seeing the face of God”. We dwell at the Well of the Living One Who Sees Me whenever someone says to us “you really see me”, and their defenses melt away. We dwell at the Well of the Living One Who Sees Me when we find ourselves peering into the bottomless wells of another’s eyes, and they into ours, and all preconditions and grudges and judgments momentarily evaporate as we face the mystery of our shared being. We dwell at the Well of the Living One Who Sees Me when we know that even on our deathbed the capacity for healing and love is ever-present. We dwell at the Well of the Living One Who Sees Me at this season, during these Days of Awe, when we ask one another for forgiveness, when we manage to cry over our losses and laugh at our foibles and approach one another with humility and love.
In my midrash about our first family, which is every family, reconciliation is sometimes possible. Not always, certainly, but sometimes. But for that possibility to ever manifest, like Isaac we must first make our way to Be’er Lachai Ro’i. We must first stand where we see each other as God saw young Ishmael, as beings of infinite worth, precious in our eyes. So may it be.
I think he went after Ishmael :
Where did Isaac go? Well, when we next hear from Isaac in Chapter 24, verse 62, Sarah has passed away. Isaac is about to meet Rebecca for the first time. Here is what the text says: “Now Isaac was coming from the direction of Be’er Lachai Ro’i, for he was living in the Negev.” So the Torah tells us where Isaac has been: he has been living at Be’er Lachai Ro’i. And what is Be’er Lachai Ro’i? We learn of it in Chapter 16 of Genesis. Sarah’s slave Hagar, who is pregnant with Abraham’s child, has run away from Abraham and Sarah because of Sarah’s cruel treatment of her. She stops at a spring. An angel of God calls to her and promises her that she will bear a son and that all will be well. Hagar must return to her mistress. Hagar calls to God and says, “You are El Ro’i”, meaning, “you are the God who sees me”. Thus that spring bears the name Be’er Lachai Ro’i, The Well of the Living One Who Sees Me. The son she bears to Abraham she names Ishmael, meaning “God hears”.
When Hagar and Ishmael are ultimately banished to the wilderness, I say they returned to this oasis, and Hagar raised her son there. And apparently, this is where Isaac is living as well in the wake of the akedah. What are we to make of this?
I say: Isaac and Ishmael loved each other. I say: Isaac’s heart was broken when his brother Ishmael and his brother’s mother Hagar were forced to leave their home. Ishmael was his brother, and Hagar was a second mother to him. They were his family. Isaac traveled there out of his yearning to make whole his broken family. In some ways every family is broken. We all share this yearning to make whole, to bring together, to repair the rifts in our families. Sometimes we can make a difference, sometimes there is nothing that can be done. Often, a death in the family paradoxically opens the door to healing. Perhaps Sarah’s death opened this door. I cannot tell you how many times I have spoken with families in which a family member is dying or has just passed, and a family member says to me: yes, of course, it’s terribly hard and sad, but we haven’t been together like this in so many years, it is really beautiful, too. I haven’t felt this close to my family in years, they will tell me, it is such a gift. It is supreme grace when this kind of healing takes place for a family; one cannot plan on it or count on it, but one can be open to the possibility, and ready to reconcile. The Jewish name for this healing is teshuvah.
In my midrash, Isaac does teshuvah with Ishmael. He does what he can to put their parents’ conflicts behind them, and to restore their bond as brothers.
The Torah gives us a signal that Isaac and Ishmael did indeed reconcile. The next time we hear about the two of them is at the time of Abraham’s death. The Torah says, “And Abraham died at a ripe old age…His sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah… there Abraham and Sarah his wife were buried.” Isaac and Ishmael bury their father together. This alone would not be enough to assume the brothers had done teshuvah with each other, but the Torah then adds: “After the death of Abraham, God blessed Isaac, and Isaac settled at Be’er Lachai Ro’i.” I say: Isaac and Ishmael reconciled, at the Well of the Living One Who Sees Me.
For Be’er Lachai Ro’i is much more than a physical location, it is a state of being, it is a condition of consciousness. It is the place where we are seen, truly, for who we are: children of the divine, unique individuals, beings of infinite worth. It is the place where God sees Ishmael “as he is”, as a boy in desperate need of help, and responds. It is the well that Jacob figuratively stands by when he approaches his brother Esau and looks him in the face for the first time, and exclaims, “Seeing you is liking seeing the face of God”. We dwell at the Well of the Living One Who Sees Me whenever someone says to us “you really see me”, and their defenses melt away. We dwell at the Well of the Living One Who Sees Me when we find ourselves peering into the bottomless wells of another’s eyes, and they into ours, and all preconditions and grudges and judgments momentarily evaporate as we face the mystery of our shared being. We dwell at the Well of the Living One Who Sees Me when we know that even on our deathbed the capacity for healing and love is ever-present. We dwell at the Well of the Living One Who Sees Me at this season, during these Days of Awe, when we ask one another for forgiveness, when we manage to cry over our losses and laugh at our foibles and approach one another with humility and love.
In my midrash about our first family, which is every family, reconciliation is sometimes possible. Not always, certainly, but sometimes. But for that possibility to ever manifest, like Isaac we must first make our way to Be’er Lachai Ro’i. We must first stand where we see each other as God saw young Ishmael, as beings of infinite worth, precious in our eyes. So may it be.
As long as we live, we have hope
And what was the first think that Issac did when he learned that Abraham was dead?
And what was the first think that Issac did when he learned that Abraham was dead?
Thanks a lot Dear
I hope we stay healthy enough to be able to participate actively in our dancing turn
as long as we live.............. Amen
I hope we stay healthy enough to be able to participate actively in our dancing turn
as long as we live.............. Amen
Chasidic Jews dance as a part of their worship. They sing a Biblical verse, or a wordless melody which repeats over and over called a niggun. And it's a simple, two step dance in a circle, or snaking around the synagogue. It can be quite exciting, and when you get into the spirit of that form of worship (I have belonged to non-Chassidic congregations which adopted the practice) can be a form of meditation.
And a heck of a lot of fun!
And folks, please note: Rahim is telling the KORAN'S story of Hajar, which is not identical to the version given in Genesis of Hagar. Same person, but the story is told from two different points of view, so it changes.
So Biblical "arguments" about Hajar are irrelevant. Wrong story.
If you do not understand that, rent the classic Japanese movie "Roshomon". (even if you DO understand it, rent the movie - it's GREAT) Every character is telling the truth as he or she sees it - but it ends up a different story. The only one who tells the entire truth is the last person, who is has no stake in the story. And displays supreme, Buddah-like compassion in the last scene.
And a heck of a lot of fun!
And folks, please note: Rahim is telling the KORAN'S story of Hajar, which is not identical to the version given in Genesis of Hagar. Same person, but the story is told from two different points of view, so it changes.
So Biblical "arguments" about Hajar are irrelevant. Wrong story.
If you do not understand that, rent the classic Japanese movie "Roshomon". (even if you DO understand it, rent the movie - it's GREAT) Every character is telling the truth as he or she sees it - but it ends up a different story. The only one who tells the entire truth is the last person, who is has no stake in the story. And displays supreme, Buddah-like compassion in the last scene.
and I did not received any direct reply, may be because being too busy, no hard feelings at all
let's dance
let's dance
Dear Myown
Thanks, I feel like I am losing some of my friends in medhelp or may be people are too busy to waste their time, I don't know.
Dear Myown and Rainbow I think we all need to accept each other as a respected individuals before we go any further and if we don't, we should at-least stop any further discussions . Mr. Rainbow you made a good point about spirituality which is true.
Now if you allow me for the last time, I say what I said :
fisrt I said : "Why don't you rely on God directly in heart with no third body intermediator ( we do that lot in Islam not very much in Sonny's Islam )
Did you know Hajar, read about her "
I have to correct that most people truely don't do that these days ( relying on God directly in heart with no third body intermediator )
Then I said :
Hi
Now think of the following points :
- Who have the greatest value before God ?
We don't know because we are not God
-How Jesus is going to save those who lived before him ?
-Who would save people living in uncivilized wild natural places and have no idea of Jesus ?
( remember the man's choice at any time any place )
Hajar's story :
Did you know Haj is the most important necessity of every Muslim and people are supposed to go for Haj at least once in their life time( If they are wealthy enough). They have to do 7 times circumambulation around Kaaba ( the holy place made by Ibrahim called the house of God ) and Hajar,s grave ( very close to Kaaba ) and after that they have run back and fort (not too fast ) 7 times between Safa and Marveh ( 2 mountains) showing the obedience of God for infinity, That was what Hajar did, disparately seeking for water to give to her new born son, Ismael and when she goes back to her son lying near the wall of Kaaba, she realizes that baby has hit the ground with his heel and a little water has come out there ( Zam Zam fountain ) .
I said all this to make my point.
The point :
The Haj is not accepted if you don't circumambulate Hajar's grave along with Kaaba ( even Ibrahim hasn't got that close ).............Why ?
An slave who has no support from nobody and secretly marries Ibrahim who is much much older than her ( about 80 years old ) and now when the baby is coming she has to tolerate all the blame by some people and leave home and go to hot desert ( like what Marya did ) and seek for water because she was told by God to do so, She did that and when she got there, she did not just sat there in the shadow of wall and wait for God to do something for her, what she did, she stated searching for some solution, doing what she really could do, A mother who is willing to do anything to save her son, that is why
I hope I could have made up my point now
Hugs
Rahim
I wish us peace in heart
Thanks, I feel like I am losing some of my friends in medhelp or may be people are too busy to waste their time, I don't know.
Dear Myown and Rainbow I think we all need to accept each other as a respected individuals before we go any further and if we don't, we should at-least stop any further discussions . Mr. Rainbow you made a good point about spirituality which is true.
Now if you allow me for the last time, I say what I said :
fisrt I said : "Why don't you rely on God directly in heart with no third body intermediator ( we do that lot in Islam not very much in Sonny's Islam )
Did you know Hajar, read about her "
I have to correct that most people truely don't do that these days ( relying on God directly in heart with no third body intermediator )
Then I said :
Hi
Now think of the following points :
- Who have the greatest value before God ?
We don't know because we are not God
-How Jesus is going to save those who lived before him ?
-Who would save people living in uncivilized wild natural places and have no idea of Jesus ?
( remember the man's choice at any time any place )
Hajar's story :
Did you know Haj is the most important necessity of every Muslim and people are supposed to go for Haj at least once in their life time( If they are wealthy enough). They have to do 7 times circumambulation around Kaaba ( the holy place made by Ibrahim called the house of God ) and Hajar,s grave ( very close to Kaaba ) and after that they have run back and fort (not too fast ) 7 times between Safa and Marveh ( 2 mountains) showing the obedience of God for infinity, That was what Hajar did, disparately seeking for water to give to her new born son, Ismael and when she goes back to her son lying near the wall of Kaaba, she realizes that baby has hit the ground with his heel and a little water has come out there ( Zam Zam fountain ) .
I said all this to make my point.
The point :
The Haj is not accepted if you don't circumambulate Hajar's grave along with Kaaba ( even Ibrahim hasn't got that close ).............Why ?
An slave who has no support from nobody and secretly marries Ibrahim who is much much older than her ( about 80 years old ) and now when the baby is coming she has to tolerate all the blame by some people and leave home and go to hot desert ( like what Marya did ) and seek for water because she was told by God to do so, She did that and when she got there, she did not just sat there in the shadow of wall and wait for God to do something for her, what she did, she stated searching for some solution, doing what she really could do, A mother who is willing to do anything to save her son, that is why
I hope I could have made up my point now
Hugs
Rahim
I wish us peace in heart
It is interesting that you took a simple statement of fact as a personal attack. It is not.
Since i have been on the SPIRITUALITY list, you have never expressed your own PERSONAL feelings or opinions. A simple fact.
You are the one who seems to show a lack of tolerance towards the beliefs of others. Your constant need to throw Christian proof texts at us when we are discussing OUR feelings and opinions is offensive to non-Christians and to non-believers, and belies your earlier statement (in this very thread) that this forum is open to all faiths.
It apparently is only open to all faiths who are willing to listen to YOUR version of "the Truth".
I am very tolerant of Christians. As a member of a religious minority, I HAVE to be - I live in a country dominated by you people. If I lived in a Hindu country, I would be equally as tolerant of their believes, and hope that they would be as tolerant of mine.
My only brother-in-law is a Christian. His late father was instrumental in making sure that my middle of three nephews got to his bar-mitzvah lessons, and their entire congregation were aware that Bob went out of his way to do that. When Grandpa Hanst died, that entire JEWISH congregation mourned his passing formally, and they still annually observe the anniversary of his death each year, as a decent human being who was "a member of the family". We know how to respect a decent and loving Christian who respects us.
I DO understand that it is part of your faith that you must preach to us heathens, especially us Jews. But do you stand on street corners and do that by stopping strangers? Do you go into libraries and do it? Do you walk into Mosques and Synagogues to preach during services? Of course not - that would be rude. Well, THIS is NOT the forum for that, either - your Biblical forum is - which is why I choose not to go there.
This IS supposed to be a forum to discuss general issues of spirituality - not one vision of G*d's identity.
SPIRITUALITY is about how each of us connect to the divine. As individuals. As a recovering alcoholic, I had to find a new way of addressing G*d. One that was less formal and more personal. As a social worker working with addicts, I had to help them find paths to a SPIRIT which might NOT include G*d, but still allowed them to find Recovery. (The Twelve Steps Do discuss G*d "as we understand G*d" but doe not insist that members have an individual believe in a deity. Just a Spiritual connection with "A Power Greater Than Ourselves."
I feel sorry for you, my dear. You can never know that joy - the joy of discovering an individual relationship with a Higher Power based in exploring the deepest darkness of your soul when you've reached rock bottom, and finding a Light which shows you that there IS a Power Greater Than Yourself - and YOU can define it. Any way you need to.
THAT is SPIRITUALITY - the topic at the top of the page.
Since i have been on the SPIRITUALITY list, you have never expressed your own PERSONAL feelings or opinions. A simple fact.
You are the one who seems to show a lack of tolerance towards the beliefs of others. Your constant need to throw Christian proof texts at us when we are discussing OUR feelings and opinions is offensive to non-Christians and to non-believers, and belies your earlier statement (in this very thread) that this forum is open to all faiths.
It apparently is only open to all faiths who are willing to listen to YOUR version of "the Truth".
I am very tolerant of Christians. As a member of a religious minority, I HAVE to be - I live in a country dominated by you people. If I lived in a Hindu country, I would be equally as tolerant of their believes, and hope that they would be as tolerant of mine.
My only brother-in-law is a Christian. His late father was instrumental in making sure that my middle of three nephews got to his bar-mitzvah lessons, and their entire congregation were aware that Bob went out of his way to do that. When Grandpa Hanst died, that entire JEWISH congregation mourned his passing formally, and they still annually observe the anniversary of his death each year, as a decent human being who was "a member of the family". We know how to respect a decent and loving Christian who respects us.
I DO understand that it is part of your faith that you must preach to us heathens, especially us Jews. But do you stand on street corners and do that by stopping strangers? Do you go into libraries and do it? Do you walk into Mosques and Synagogues to preach during services? Of course not - that would be rude. Well, THIS is NOT the forum for that, either - your Biblical forum is - which is why I choose not to go there.
This IS supposed to be a forum to discuss general issues of spirituality - not one vision of G*d's identity.
SPIRITUALITY is about how each of us connect to the divine. As individuals. As a recovering alcoholic, I had to find a new way of addressing G*d. One that was less formal and more personal. As a social worker working with addicts, I had to help them find paths to a SPIRIT which might NOT include G*d, but still allowed them to find Recovery. (The Twelve Steps Do discuss G*d "as we understand G*d" but doe not insist that members have an individual believe in a deity. Just a Spiritual connection with "A Power Greater Than Ourselves."
I feel sorry for you, my dear. You can never know that joy - the joy of discovering an individual relationship with a Higher Power based in exploring the deepest darkness of your soul when you've reached rock bottom, and finding a Light which shows you that there IS a Power Greater Than Yourself - and YOU can define it. Any way you need to.
THAT is SPIRITUALITY - the topic at the top of the page.
What??
You said:"Rahim did not ask you for a prepackaged scriptural response, but your ow gut feeling about the story of Hagar, Abraham's concubine.. "
Or is that forbidden?
----------------------------
Well first off, what's with the "prepackaged scriptural response" comment?
He did NOT ask me for my own gut feeling about the story of Hagar prior to that post... And so what's the prepackaged stuff?
I do answer "with scripture" ( unedited too, not like some people) because my opinion doesn't count, but scripture does count.
And if I do throw in my opinion at all, I don't claim it to be scripture, as I have seen others on this site do.
People claiming things in the bible when they are no where to be found in the bible, OR people leaving things out so as not to offend themselves or others by what God says.
That's amazing to me. People changing the Word of God to suit themselves.
But anyhow,what Rahim did say was this:"Why don't you rely on God directly in heart with no third body intermediator ( we do that lot in Islam not very much in Sonny's Islam )
Did you know Hajar, read about her "
So my answer was to explain why I believe what I believe. And so why did I write what I wrote? Obvious - Rahim didn't understand what or why I believe what I believe, otherwise he would not have asked me to "rely on God......"
And as far as Hagar, up until that point all he asked was "did you know Hagar, read about her." My answer was that I am very familiar with the story of Hagar.
So sometimes I wonder if people read what people actually post before they say things.
And anyhow, why would you think it would be forbidden to speak of Hagar?
I don't leave anything out of the bible - I believe the bible in it's entirety - Hebrew Scriptures and New Testament, so nothing is omitted when I read the bible and I will discuss anything in the bible if someone wants to, no problemo.
But as I mentioned several times, the Biblical forum is probably the place to discuss it.... I will be more than happy to discuss Hagar with anyone who wants to discuss it and since rahim does, I will, because I would like to hear what a Muslims interpretation of the scripture is. I do like to discuss things and I can without personal attacks. And rahim is able to discuss things without personal attacks either. When people have strong belief in what they believe they never have to give a mike tyson bite and instead they just say what they want to say and back it up WITH scripture.
And the other thing is this, you don't have to speak for rahim, he seems to be able to speak quite well for himself. And I am not being snippy, just stating a fact. But you were being snippy with your "prepackaged" comment. I still want to hear what that is about.
You're not very tolerant of Christians Ike. Gee whiz.
Hey rahim , how's it going??:) Hope all is well with you.
I'll be back, I want to post in the other forum though.
You said:"Rahim did not ask you for a prepackaged scriptural response, but your ow gut feeling about the story of Hagar, Abraham's concubine.. "
Or is that forbidden?
----------------------------
Well first off, what's with the "prepackaged scriptural response" comment?
He did NOT ask me for my own gut feeling about the story of Hagar prior to that post... And so what's the prepackaged stuff?
I do answer "with scripture" ( unedited too, not like some people) because my opinion doesn't count, but scripture does count.
And if I do throw in my opinion at all, I don't claim it to be scripture, as I have seen others on this site do.
People claiming things in the bible when they are no where to be found in the bible, OR people leaving things out so as not to offend themselves or others by what God says.
That's amazing to me. People changing the Word of God to suit themselves.
But anyhow,what Rahim did say was this:"Why don't you rely on God directly in heart with no third body intermediator ( we do that lot in Islam not very much in Sonny's Islam )
Did you know Hajar, read about her "
So my answer was to explain why I believe what I believe. And so why did I write what I wrote? Obvious - Rahim didn't understand what or why I believe what I believe, otherwise he would not have asked me to "rely on God......"
And as far as Hagar, up until that point all he asked was "did you know Hagar, read about her." My answer was that I am very familiar with the story of Hagar.
So sometimes I wonder if people read what people actually post before they say things.
And anyhow, why would you think it would be forbidden to speak of Hagar?
I don't leave anything out of the bible - I believe the bible in it's entirety - Hebrew Scriptures and New Testament, so nothing is omitted when I read the bible and I will discuss anything in the bible if someone wants to, no problemo.
But as I mentioned several times, the Biblical forum is probably the place to discuss it.... I will be more than happy to discuss Hagar with anyone who wants to discuss it and since rahim does, I will, because I would like to hear what a Muslims interpretation of the scripture is. I do like to discuss things and I can without personal attacks. And rahim is able to discuss things without personal attacks either. When people have strong belief in what they believe they never have to give a mike tyson bite and instead they just say what they want to say and back it up WITH scripture.
And the other thing is this, you don't have to speak for rahim, he seems to be able to speak quite well for himself. And I am not being snippy, just stating a fact. But you were being snippy with your "prepackaged" comment. I still want to hear what that is about.
You're not very tolerant of Christians Ike. Gee whiz.
Hey rahim , how's it going??:) Hope all is well with you.
I'll be back, I want to post in the other forum though.
All a product of my spiritual education - even the logic.
Reasoned debate was always an important part of Jewish learning, and it reached its height under the enlightened rule of Moslem rulers in Spain and the former Babylonian empire when it was absorbed into the Turkish Empire. (It was a great center of Jewish learning)
Among Jews, debate has always been an art form, and the Talmud always recorded both the winning AND losing side of the theological debates, just as the US Supreme Court publishes the minority opinion on most of their Decisions. Because it is important for future generations to understand HOW decisions were made, and perhaps to find where mistakes were made in the original arguments. Both groups realized that they were only fallible humans, doing their best to interpret the will of those that came earlier.
If you show the world your logical arguments, and they can point out the error in the logic, miscarriages of justice can be reversed.
Theoretically.
Reasoned debate was always an important part of Jewish learning, and it reached its height under the enlightened rule of Moslem rulers in Spain and the former Babylonian empire when it was absorbed into the Turkish Empire. (It was a great center of Jewish learning)
Among Jews, debate has always been an art form, and the Talmud always recorded both the winning AND losing side of the theological debates, just as the US Supreme Court publishes the minority opinion on most of their Decisions. Because it is important for future generations to understand HOW decisions were made, and perhaps to find where mistakes were made in the original arguments. Both groups realized that they were only fallible humans, doing their best to interpret the will of those that came earlier.
If you show the world your logical arguments, and they can point out the error in the logic, miscarriages of justice can be reversed.
Theoretically.
Hi
It looks to me you are a logical, reasonable and truthful person
It looks to me you are a logical, reasonable and truthful person
Rahim did not ask you for a prepackaged scriptural response, but your ow gut feeling about the story of Hagar, Abraham's concubine..
Or is that forbidden?
Or is that forbidden?
Hello dear MO
I will be thankful if you answer based on you personal believes
Did you get the Hajar's message ?
Get some rest............lol
I will be thankful if you answer based on you personal believes
Did you get the Hajar's message ?
Get some rest............lol
Hey Rahim great questions! And there are answers from scripture that I can give you.
But I will answer the question in the Biblical Forum as soon as I can get back on MH.
Just a little busy right now..
Talk to you again:)
MO
But I will answer the question in the Biblical Forum as soon as I can get back on MH.
Just a little busy right now..
Talk to you again:)
MO
Right and
Making a partner(s) of G*d is not a fair deal at all and won't forgive that.
Making a partner(s) of G*d is not a fair deal at all and won't forgive that.
I think it is expressed best in the Hebrew scriptures by Micha,
It has been told to you, Oh man
what is good
and what the Creator requires of you
Only to do good
love justice
and walk humbly with YOUR G*d.*
I was 12 when i first read that, and was impressed by the "your". A if the Prophet was saying that I got a chance to define my G*d, or at least my relationship with G*d from the many different ways which are described in the Hebrew Scriptures
I found that comforting at 12
and find it the same at 60.
Ike
(* a somewhat loose translation, to fit my liberal egalitarian beliefs, but the YOUR is in there),
It has been told to you, Oh man
what is good
and what the Creator requires of you
Only to do good
love justice
and walk humbly with YOUR G*d.*
I was 12 when i first read that, and was impressed by the "your". A if the Prophet was saying that I got a chance to define my G*d, or at least my relationship with G*d from the many different ways which are described in the Hebrew Scriptures
I found that comforting at 12
and find it the same at 60.
Ike
(* a somewhat loose translation, to fit my liberal egalitarian beliefs, but the YOUR is in there),
Hi
Now think of the following points :
- Who have the greatest value before God ?
We don't know because we are not God
-How Jesus is going to save those who lived before him ?
-Who would save people living in uncivilized wild natural places and have no idea of Jesus ?
( remember the man's choice at any time any place )
Hajar's story :
Did you know Haj is the most important necessity of every Muslim and people are supposed to go for Haj at least once in their life time( If they are wealthy enough). They have to do 7 times circumambulation around Kaaba ( the holy place made by Ibrahim called the house of God ) and Hajar,s grave ( very close to Kaaba ) and after that they have run back and fort (not too fast ) 7 times between Safa and Marveh ( 2 mountains) showing the obedience of God for infinity, That was what Hajar did, disparately seeking for water to give to her new born son, Ismael and when she goes back to her son lying near the wall of Kaaba, she realizes that baby has hit the ground with his heel and a little water has come out there ( Zam Zam fountain ) .
I said all this to make my point.
The point :
The Haj is not accepted if you don't circumambulate Hajar's grave along with Kaaba ( even Ibrahim hasn't got that close ).............Why ?
An slave who has no support from nobody and secretly marries Ibrahim who is much much older than her ( about 80 years old ) and now when the baby is coming she has to tolerate all the blame by some people and leave home and go to hot desert ( like what Marya did ) and seek for water because she was told by God to do so, She did that and when she got there, she did not just sat there in the shadow of wall and wait for God to do something for her, what she did, she stated searching for some solution, doing what she really could do, A mother who is willing to do anything to save her son, that is why
I hope I could have made up my point now
Hugs
Rahim
Now think of the following points :
- Who have the greatest value before God ?
We don't know because we are not God
-How Jesus is going to save those who lived before him ?
-Who would save people living in uncivilized wild natural places and have no idea of Jesus ?
( remember the man's choice at any time any place )
Hajar's story :
Did you know Haj is the most important necessity of every Muslim and people are supposed to go for Haj at least once in their life time( If they are wealthy enough). They have to do 7 times circumambulation around Kaaba ( the holy place made by Ibrahim called the house of God ) and Hajar,s grave ( very close to Kaaba ) and after that they have run back and fort (not too fast ) 7 times between Safa and Marveh ( 2 mountains) showing the obedience of God for infinity, That was what Hajar did, disparately seeking for water to give to her new born son, Ismael and when she goes back to her son lying near the wall of Kaaba, she realizes that baby has hit the ground with his heel and a little water has come out there ( Zam Zam fountain ) .
I said all this to make my point.
The point :
The Haj is not accepted if you don't circumambulate Hajar's grave along with Kaaba ( even Ibrahim hasn't got that close ).............Why ?
An slave who has no support from nobody and secretly marries Ibrahim who is much much older than her ( about 80 years old ) and now when the baby is coming she has to tolerate all the blame by some people and leave home and go to hot desert ( like what Marya did ) and seek for water because she was told by God to do so, She did that and when she got there, she did not just sat there in the shadow of wall and wait for God to do something for her, what she did, she stated searching for some solution, doing what she really could do, A mother who is willing to do anything to save her son, that is why
I hope I could have made up my point now
Hugs
Rahim
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