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Bigeminy and Ablation


I am a 33 year old female and have been experiencing  episodes of PVC's for approx. 6 yrs.  The frequency, intensity, and duration increased dramaticly 6 mos. postpartem.  I often have episodes that wake me in the night with strong PVC's, hot and faint with diarrhea.  The episodes used to last about a month at a time with 1000's of PVC's daily, then they would go away for months.  In 11/03 I started synthroid and the instantly disappeared for over a year until 3/05.  I am extremely chemically sensitive and I ran into a situation at work where I had a strong reaction after my my workplace was painted with oil based paint.  Since that time I have 1000's of PVC's daily with bouts of bigeminy, trigeminy. I often get lightheaded, tightness in chest and upper back, I get these adrenaline type surges.  I spent 4 days in the hospital last week after "greying out" several times in a day and feeling very weak.  The doc's tried Toperal, sodilol (sp?)with no change, even seemed to exacerbate.  Amiodarone helped initially then no success.   An EP who said this sounds like Autonmic Dysautomnia.  wants to do exploratory EP study.
Do ablations work for PVC's?  Sometimes I get these rush feelings before the PVC's act up so I wonder if an ablation will even take care of the othe surge thing.  can imbalanced hormones cause this?  I have already seen the influence of thyroid and pregnancy.  Can this just be years of stress catching up?  Should I do exploratry mission or just learn to cope?  Is this an issue of a hyper nervous sytem? Adrenal exhaustion? allergic reactions? Thank you!!!!
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MLE
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MLE
Pls tell me the exact formulation and brand of magnesium supplements that you take for bigeminy. Tx!
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MLE
Pls tell me the brand name and/or exact formula and dosage that you use for bigeminy. Tx!
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what adrenal gland supplements do you take,havent heard of these,do they work?
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I think magnesium is the right path but you were taking too much of it. This can cause problems too.
Try taking a lower dose of magnesium. (80-100 mg/day). I also take manganese and calcium and it stops the bigeminy that I used to get every day.
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I have had bigeminy and PVC's and APB's, for 15 years. I noticed when I began taking calcium +D (I don't drink milk), my symptoms went away. If I stop taking them, they come back. What's in the calcium tablets? Calcium, magnesium, zinc, copper and manganese. I researched all these on the net and found that magnesium deficiency causes bigeminy. Voila!

Since then I have read much on the theory that it is caused by electrolyte imbalances of which calcium and magnesium are electrolytes. The Doctor never did an electrolyte test but I'm going to ask for one.

I will give anyone the brand type I take if asked. They are OTC. Try this before going for ablation or taking drugs. The vitamins have no side effects.



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There probably is some correlation between your autonomic nervous system and frequency palps. It seems everything I do triggers them, or should I say, since they are always there, just about everything I do has the potential to make them worse.

But no, I haven't been dx with that. However, I have been under under severe job stress for the last five years and I think it's just caught up with me. My adrenals probably were shot, and continue to be since I haven't been able to change the stress, only how I deal with it.

I think I was at the point of near exhaustion when the PVCs tripled and went to 24,000 per day. At that time and before I was taking Kyolic garlic, EPA/DHA (fish oils), CoQ10, B-Vit complex, Multi vit, SAMe, glucosamine with MSM and cal/mg. When I noticed the change in palps, I went to the dr. and was severely anemic, so I added iron to the list.

But when the PVCs weren't slowing down I decided to stop taking everything except the iron, and I added magnesium 1000mg/day. I tried going back on my old regime of supplements, but the PVCs seemed to increase yet again to many couplets and nsvt. I stopped the supplements, took a short course of toperol (3 days only) and the couplets and nsvt stopped and it was just my regular high frequency without a pattern.

Probably the beta-blocker did the trick, but I'm reluctant to go back to any more supplements except the iron and magnesium. Like I said, everything seems to trigger more PVCs, so while I'm busy TRYING to enjoy life, I try to limit the things that might tip the apple cart again and cause more PVCs. Hope you find something that works for you. Who suggested the adrenal supplements?
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Just wanted to know if either of you have had news back from your appointments at the new clinic/cardiologist. Hope it went well. Did you get the help/information you were hoping for?
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I know this is off the subject, but I am wondering if anyone else has had the diagnoses of Autonomic Disfunction?  I guess my cardiologist is suggesting that my autonomic nervous system is hypersensitive and thus the reason so many things trigger PVC's.  ..change in position, hot drinks, full tummy, hormone fluctuations, certain foods...
I have started taking Adrenal glandular supplements to nourish my nervous system which in theory shoud help associated anxiety and decrease palps.  I also take Siberian Ginseng and licorice for adrenals in addition to Co Q10, vita c, mag/cal, and Hawthorn for the heart.  Anyone else taking supplements?
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Hope the new cardiologist has some encouraging news and new therapy for you. Let us know what he suggests. And don't worry about your telephone sized chart or offending your long time cardiologist. I'm sure even they like to hear the opinions of other doctors and a fresh pair of eyes on your condition.

Oh, and I prefer not to think of us being on a sinking boat (you know what happened to the titanic), it's just rough waters, for a long long time. I have had the occassional calm sea, it's very pretty when it's here!

I also just wanted to let you know that I was an extra in Superman ?(what number I can't remember). It was filmed in Calgary Alberta in the late 80's if that helps. I'm in the opening scene of the bank robbery. It was fun, but seems like a different lifetime. You can't even tell that I was having PVCs at the time. smile
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Hey Upbeat,

A Couplet, from my understanding is 2 PVC's in a row between "normal beats". Likewise a "triplet" is 3 PVC's in a row between a starting and ending "normal beat. On the other hand, Bigemeny, trigemeny is different and looks different on a rhythm strip but from what I'm told there is no increased danger in one verses the other in a stucturally normal heart. Even runs of Non sustained V-tach, again another variation of a ventricular rhythm, is NOT life threatning in itself. At least that is what my cardiologist has been telling me for years. As in my case, it's the sometimes very frequent symptoms I would rather be treated for with Meds. at this stage than RF abalation until that procedure is "more" perfected. I have seen a doctor here in NJ since the inception of an arrythmia back in 1992 (PSVT) now the SVT has quited down "for the most part" and isolated and in the last 5 years or less PVC's have taken over and I don't know what feels worse and SVT or Multiform PVC! At any rate, I have decided to get a 3rd, yes "3rd" oppinion from another cardiologist and that was this past Friday and what's interesting is that he thinks there may be "other" options besides the Tenormin that I've been on for years which just does NOT completely or for a long period of time, thwart off these PVC's and occassional PSVT\Tachycardia I get, so I'm curious to see what a different cardiologist has to offer in terms of therapies(meds) that my current cardiologist hasn't tried nor suggested? Many of us are in what appears to be the same sinking boat. I would hope my cardiologist of 13 years doesn't resent me for reaching out for other medical oppinions and options.It's my right to do so and the worst that can happen (I hope) is I revert back to my original doctor. I have every right to seek for that small glimmer of hope beyond what I am getting now!
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Avatar universal
Thanks for your comment\reply. It's always assuring as well as informing when someone in similar shoes enlightens you about thier problem. I appreciate your feedback and the info. you provided regarding your specific reason essential to RF ablation. I'm glad it worked for you and hope that if my heart enlarges as a result of these ectopic beats and intermitant, (yet ongoing for years) tachycardia, I hope I'm as lucky as you were If I too need an ablation procedure! My doctor who I've been seeing for 13+ years is chief of cardiology at Columbus Hospital in Newark, NJ. The doctor I recently saw, believe it or not, for yet another opinnion, is in Morristown NJ. closer to where I reside now. Oddly enough, he thinks he might be able to suppress these ectopics better than the current medication (Tenormin 50mg) I've been taking for a long time. I guess there are certain standard first line therapies  most doctors will use but at the same time each individual doctor is unique and "may" opt, as in my case, to try another approach using different meds. or a combination of meds.? Including treating the arrhythmia episodes that are also triggering extreme anxiety\panic states as well which I think that are directly associated  with both pre and post episodes  of an arrhythmia, which no doubt, fuels them even more. I take Tenormin and a Benzo (Klonopin)and I think this particular cardiologist plans on an SSRI(lexapro) for the anticipitory anxiety and the anxiety that follows an event, (even though I tried many of them in the past as well) and he may change my BB. He is currently reviewing the telephone book size file I've compiled over the 13 years and will be calling me to tell me what he thinks and if there is anything different he wants to institute or try? Hopefully, It's not a waste of more time and "more" of my insurance money, not to mention my co-pays, only to be revert back where I started
once again! We'll see..
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Avatar universal
Isn't less stressing to know that there are others like us out there. I also live in your area. I wonder if we visit the same cardiologist, because yours gives the same advice that mine does. I am a woman in my mid 40's who has had these since I was child. I also have had longer more frequent bouts lately. LIke the other women out there and my cardiologist, I am seriously thinking that hormones play a big part. And yes men have hormones too...so who knows how they affect each and every one of us. I have been taking an increased dose of inderal. Went from taking 10 mg. as needed to taking about 80- 100 mg. a day, since they have been lasting for a few months so far this time. Yes they are very scary and I try not to let them interfere with my daily functioning, but it can get very depressing no matter how hard you try. I no longer drink even de caff coffe nor do I dare to have a beer or a glass of wine. Not that that is the worst thing in the world, but sometimes at dinner or on vacation you'd like to have one. I wish you luck eddie and hope you find relief. It is frustrating that unfortunately the DR's don't know what causes these different arrythmia's and how we can prevent or cure them altogether. This site is wonderful just being able to talk to the others who my DR assured me there were many more of us out there.
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Yes, there are many of us out there. I wonder how many. I wonder how many there are who don't know about this forum, or who are on other websites as I was before I was referred here to meet other people with high frequency PVCs.

Could someone tell me please, my high frequency went to bigeminy, to infrequent, and now I'm getting many many couplets, and I think non-sustained VT. Is that what they call it when it is a PVC for every beat, like 20 in a row, but under 30 seconds in duration? Gee, where will it, where could it go from here!?
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This is a FOLLOW-UP to my prior post.

Thanks for the reassurance as it definitely helps when you know so "many" others out there are experiencing the same horrible sensations, whether it's isolated\multiform PVC's or PSVT\Tachycardia etc... I am told by my cardiologist of "13 years" here in NJ , like many others are in this forum, that they "still" are benign in the setting of structurally normal heart, however, that doesn't give much comfort when they come out of hibernation, so to speak, or "increase" in frequency since they first started in 1992. In my case, which is similar to others in this forum as I read, my episodes started with a true onset of PSVT that would come out of the blue following my "1st" distressing episode. I was advised by my relative physicians here in NJ to consult with a heart doctor, I did and I have been seeing him ever since the first episode began. Of course, like many of us, I went through a trial and error of different BB's and even for a "short time" tried CC blockers (Verapamil) which seem to make my tachycardia worse! I also learned one certain trigger,
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Avatar universal
I am a male, oh not that it matters, and yes I am a "not yet famous" actor here in the NY\NJ area in his late 40's that has worked on popular shows like "Law & Order", "Rescue Me" on the FX channel, among other shows, At any rate, I too have been suffering from recurring episodes of "multi-form" PVC's and "occasional" bouts of "IST and PSVT since 1992. Although my Cardiologist here in NJ has reassured me that although they are frightening and but definitely interfering, in my opinion, with the quality of my life as they become more frequent, despite the 50mg. of the Beta Blocker (tenormin) I've been taking to suppress the SVT, which it has for the most part, it isn't "as effective" for the re-occurring out of the blue PVC's that come and go but when they come, make me highly anxious, unable to sleep, work, function to well (when they are occurring) yet my doctor continues to reassure me that they are benign and won't kill me! I know about RF ablation "and" it's risks as well as it's likelihood to make an arrhythmia "worse" or more dangerous than it was to begin with as well as NOT even successfully stopping certain arrhythmias, e.g., PVC's, and even if they "found" a bypass tract(s) for the PSVT and ablated\cured that abnormal rhythm, I'd still be left with the PVC's that are much more frequent and could be the result of "many" foci, which I understand RF ablation is UNLIKELY to successfully cure PVC'S leaving me back to square one and "still" having to take the Meds for the PVC's!!. Therefore, since Cryo-Ablation "claims" to "reversible" and pose less risk to a patient as well as eliminating or decreasing the need for an ICD\Pacemaker in the event the Electrophysiologist "unintentionally?" damages the sinus or AV node while attempting to ablate the "offending" tissue causing this arrhythmia. I appreciate any info. regarding this procedure and how it "may" help me and when any of the "local" Hospitals in my area NJ\NY will be using the cryo-ablation technique. I am also, interested in a clinical trial, if necessary. Anything, that will offer HOPE to end this 13 years of "extreme" anxiety over these, seem to be, progressing episodes, despite "anxiety" meds as well as a supposed safe alternative to Anti -Arrhythmias (Beta-Blockers) that sometimes don't work and the side-effects are sometimes "worse" than the arrhythmia but if I discontinue them I leave myself susceptible to the PSVT\Tachycardia returning and PVC's occurring even more! What does one do after 13 years of agony and worry, of course despite what my cardiologist is telling me!

Thank you for your help!
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Avatar universal
Hello, I've been experiencing ever increasing PVCs also. My 48hr holter showed 24,000/day. My echo came back "normal". But I started bigeminy hour upon hour day upon day like you. Then BAM, back to regular rhythm (10 PVCs per minute is normal to me). But just yesterday I started getting really strange PVCs, sometimes every beat for long strings. It would be nice to think that ablation would take them all away, forever. Let me know how your appointment goes and if they do infact recommend ablation. I've heard, read, and been told it's only a last resort and only for extreme cases where symptoms are intolerable and related directly to the PVCs.
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I gotta say, I'm certainly HOPING for an ablation possibility. My PVCs have gotten so much worse, that now, they go for hours in bigeminy, day and night. I can hardly get to sleep at night without great difficulty (heart KNOCKING on side of chest hard!)
I've been on Atenolol, Setrol (Acebutolol), and more. I've tried Magnesium, CoQ10, and more.
Finally, I've got an appointment at UVA - Charlottesville, VA for some help.
When it was just several per hour, that was not so exasperating (not to minimize it for those who have it at that level), but the intensity of the extra systole combinted with hours on end is just about more that I can take.
Surely, some people are actually "good" candidates for ablation.
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I believe as u do that hormones have much to do with these pvc's and pac's as well. I am 44 and aside from a constant occurrance of 6 weeks about 12 years ago, I have been able to ward them off with some inderal. Now last fall I had an 8 week occurrance and 6 months feeling okay now we are up tp 6  weeks again. My DR told me it gets worse as we head to menopause but I am still very regular. What happens when menopause really sets in? MY DR also told me that some people get relief after menopause when the hormones calm down. Of cours he says not to worry but as we all know that is very hard to do at least for me. Can that be why they are increasing in frequency and duration...hormonal changes that I don't physically see just yet? Help?
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I just want to say that I am a success story when it comes to ablations.  I suffered huge number of PAC's per day that eventually turned into AFIB.  It was so bad I could hardly sleep in the morning or if I woke up at night. I finally had the ablation 1.5 years ago, and it has been wonderful

Your right, you don't hear about the success stories.  Bad news gets spread much easier.

My EP doctor also checked out PVC foci.  I do suffer from a PVC once in awhile, but he couldn't detect any specific foci, so apparently he does PVC ablations.  

Don't worry about the procedure under a good doctor.  Of course no procedure is without risk, but I really wish I would have done it sooner than later.  I would have saved three years of irritation with AFIB.  However I do think a second opinion is beneficial.
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Che-kier

I am so sorry to hear about the tough time you are going through with these PVCs. I have only had them for about 7 months but I find that they tend to differ in form. Have you had both PVCs and PACs??  If so, which ones do you find more distressing?

It seems to me that they are different for everyone. I find that deep breathing through the abdomen as opposed to the lungs sometimes helps. I was on atenol for a while which did nothing and was then on a very powerful drug called tambocor (it helped immensely, but had shocking side effects!) Within the past few weeks the palps have been quite bad and so I was thinking about going on the atenol again. Have you tried this drug? It can help many people with PVCs I believe.

Thanks again for your comments. It makes me feel so much beter to know that I'm not the only one suffering.

PS - have you found that any natural remedies, such as vitamins and minerals have helped? I heard magnesium can. By the way if anyone has any more advice about how they deal with the PVCs please let me know. Thankyou guys.
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KAD
Sorry to hear of your problems and hope they find a resolution soon.  I have had 3 ablations for inappropriate sinus tach.  They are not incredibly successful.  I ended up with a pacemaker at 27 b/c it is difficult and risky to ablate on the sinus node and usually unsuccessful.  Unfortunately, doing nothing about the rapid heart rate was not an option due to the long term effects on the heart(enlarged heart).  I prefer the pacemaker than going into heart failure at 30 years old.  I'm not sure of the success rate of pvc ablations, but I would make darn sure that whatever EP doc does it has lots of experience with this particular kind of ablation.  Good luck and take care!
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Avatar universal
Thanks so mush for support and comments.
Yes have an an EP who is apparently ablates PVC's.  I just have been suprised in my research via the net that I mostly see ablation procedures for tach.
The EP wants to do an initial exploratory mission that can be several hours long and I feel I am so burned out already it seems nearly impossible to muster up the courage for a procedure that will likely lead to another. I rarely see feedabck with positve results from ablations on this forum.  Maybe because people who feel well don't bother writing in?
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21064 tn?1309308733
I have had two very successful ablations for pvcs (I was multifocal, so I had more than one procedure).

I can empathize with what you are going through....they can definitely get the best of you!!  

As for the possibility of hormonal involvement....I vote YES!  My pvcs were very prevalent during and post pregnancy, and then again in my late 30's and early 40's suggestive of pre-menopausal hormone changes.  

I am not a doctor, just a former sufferer, but in my opinion, I don't thing it is "years of stress catching up."  

Do you have an EP?  Is he/she experienced in pvc ablation (a must)?  Hope you find relief soon.


Tickertock,

Are you back home?  I was thinking about all of you when those hurricaines were whirling around the Atlantic again!  Hope all is well.  How did you make out with your doctor appointment?


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