Are We Enablers?

[dominosarah]

I have been reading a few threads here and i am disturbed with a few things.  First off we are here for support which we do.  What we are NOT HERE FOR is to give other members advice on how to take drugs they have gotten off the street.  That is drug seeking behavior.   To me, and remember this is only my opinion, giving that sort of info out is enabling them to continue in their addiction, not to mention dangerous.  I see this more and more with Methadone and suboxone.  These are not meds to be messed with.  We have to get real honest with ourselves and finally admit we are powerless and be willing to do whatever it takes to get and stay clean and part of it means stopping the drug seeking behavior..........sara

[dominosarah]

I didnt take you as a joke at all when you came here........and i still dont.        sara

[alienshadow]

I say this.. If anyone comes to a web site looking support that is great and your choice.. But the reality is unless you are close to some of these people ( and by close I mean within 30 mins of your area) It is a great place to spill your guts out let the pain release I know I have I even found myself depending upon certain meds to get me through my problems I reached out here but it was taken as a joke no one really seemed to care and thats my point.. One of the reasons why I left this place your friends here seem to become your ememy one way or another or they stop caring because you maybe seem to post to much or ask the same questions and they simply get frusrtated or tired of it.... Bottom line is someone in person that person you really trust that you know whatever you may tell them will stay between you to.. It seems to be so forfilling to me to be able to release my emotions in manner because I can write here all day but it dosent really make since and then you get so MANY good replies and you get so MANY negative replies.. Negative replies seems to make people less to open up and less to post and feel not wanted.. I have always leaned an ear here even when I could not relate because I felt I was helping and in many cases I did and in many cases even by phone and yes I have met 4 people from here and it has been a great thing for me and them....

I agree dont come here and learn how to use but come here for help or to help others and most of us can relate to that empty feeling when no one seems to want to listen or the person who takes us as a joke or can care less.....

Alien has spoken if I stepped on your toes oh well thats the way the cookie crumbles....

[Tab57]

People on this site all come from the school of ahrd knocks - real life experience and these experiences vary. My is very similar to yours. Both of my parents abused alcohol and my mother also had issues with presciption pills as well. I have been to many an AA meeeting growing up as well. It is a great organiztion and people there saved my mother's life. SHe has been clean for 39 years and counting. My Dad is going well also. Despite my genetics I have no addiction issues but know that tat could change at any given time.

This web site serves a great purpose and most everyone uses it properly. We qare not here to judge anyone nor do we have the right to do so. Addiction is a disease. People with no exposure to it have a hard time with this concept. I had a hard time with this when growing up as I could not uunderstand why my parents just didn't quit drinking.

As far as plans on how to taper ogo cold turkey etc.  - that is best left to the pros. Everyone is different and most folks on here realize this. We are all trying to help one another in the best way we know how. I value all of teh friendships I have developed since joining this site.

My painful experiences I lived with while growing up in a bad environment for many years gave ne enough invcentive to not want to abuse drugs and /or alcohol and the strength to live a clean lifestyle. Moest importantly it has given me the incnetive to help others.

This site has afforded mew the opportunity to help others and hopefully in a few cases help to make a significant difference in their lives.

There is no one stop solution. For example I have a friend who has been clean for eight months and is on suboxone to get it done. I did not like this solution but he is working with the pros and it works for him. He knows he must get off eventually but I will let the pros figure that out. He is doing great. His girl friend refused to get married until he could prove to he that he was clean and determined to stay that way. This pat Friday night I attended their wedding.

Bottom line - people on this aite are great and are truly motivated to help others in tha manner that they think is best.

[Franny62]

Exactly what you said is true on the most part, but I will tell you AA alone, and the fear of not seeing her new grandchild is really what stopped my Mother back in 1970. That really was an only option back then, and if your not a spiritual person, or, a non-believer? It's almost impossible just with AA. She stopped smoking also, ans smoked 2 packs a day, and all she used was will power! I really believe that will power is a wonderful trait to have, and I wish I had inherited hers.

As far as replacing one narcotic to get off another one? I agree, because I refused my Doctor wanting to put me on Suboxone. I've heard too many bad, and too  few good stories just trying to get off of that one. Excuse me, I had to go regurgitate, and I'm serious. This withdrawal is pure he11! We all have to fight our own demons, but I can only tell folks my experience in hopes that maybe at least they know their not alone, and I understand how they feel. Keep up the good work, and hang in there everyone!  Folks, I'm just too sick to talk tonight.

[dominosarah]

Your last sentence speaks volumnes.

[bmdad]

I think what makes this site so great is that we don't sit here and tell everyone how to take pills, what pills to take, where to get them, offer to sell them, etc. I feel this is one of the most professional substance abuse sites there is. The advice given is usually the best way to long term sobriety. If we sit here and tell people to take xanax, methadone, sub, or any other addictive substance to get off of a different addictive substance it would be no different than somebody's dealer saying, "hey, take these, they will keep you from withdrawing", knowing that their "client" will just become addicted to those. Going to a doctor to get these is always the best way to go about it. Your supply is somewhat limited, you are getting away from addictive behaviors, you are being monitored for health risks and side effects, and most of the time forced to attend meetings or counseling. Most of the time if someone tried to take another addictive med on their own or not for its originally prescribed use they will end up hooked on it.
There are a million sites out there where you can go and get information about how to use one drug to get off of another. I think that's what sets us apart from the rest. We are up front and honest about saying how if you are self medicating your chances at success can be slim. Self medicating got us where we are at today. Until an addict realizes that their plan of self medicating just won't work, they will have a tough time at long term sobriety. I feel there is nothing wrong with getting on methadone, suboxone, taking a benzo, etc to help get clean. But as an addict we can't control our intake. If they are there we will take them.
The forum rule have tightened up over the last year or so. A few years ago there always use to be posts about people coming across benzos, sub, methadone, etc and would come on here and ask how to take them. People would answer and tell them how to do a quick 10 day taper with them. The original poster would stick around for  a few weeks and post their progress. I can't think of one time that they stuck around saying it worked. What I usually saw was that the person went right back to the doc and then disappeared from the forum. If those methods worked I wonder if medhelp would mind if we gave out advice on it? I'm guessing one of the reasons we can't give out that advice is because it is enabling and most of the time it does not work. I've yet to hear about a successful post where it did work on there own. Now if you combine a program and being monitored the chances go way up.  Until we stop self medicating and taking one drug to get off another, we have a long road ahead of us. We have to throw in the towel and realize that "our plan" doesn't work. I tried so many different approaches and each approach had to do with another pill. It didn't work until I stopped doing it my way.

[dominosarah]

I am going to have them move this to the social side as there are people who are struggling and we need to focus on that now.  Thanks for all the opinions....sara

[Punkinhead75]

Is it ok to to tell someone that they are so far down on their taper they should just go CT? or tell them how to taper?  There seems to be a lot of that.  I was always told to share my experience.  If that helps then great.  If not then oh well.  I'm not here to tell people what to do.  Suggesting someone go to a mtg or some kind of aftercare is far different that suggesting they do or don't take some kind of medication.  If I went CT and was ok that is what I should share.  I should not assume that it is ok for someone else to go CT just because it worked for me.  There is a lot more going on than just stopping whatever it is we are taking.  There can be some serious health risks.  We need to be careful about what we share and how we share it.  Thanks sara for bringing this up.

[SCtranspose]

Very good points here! Interesting thread, thanks for bringing this up Sarah! I agree with mist everything here, however there are many sub doctors out there who will put you on the highest mg for prolonged periods of time. The first sub doctor I went to had me on 16 mg for at least 6-8 months. I was reading on here and asking questions when I found out that it is best to take a minimal amount for the shortest period of time. So when I went to this new dr, I told her what my goals were of being on low dose for short time and she was able to work with me! If it weren't for this site, I would still be on an ungodly amount of subs! So I guess my point is , I don't think it is wrong to give advice to addicts that are truly seeking helpful information as long as they are communicating with their doctor and getting the proper care. I guess it is a very fine line there so just be careful of the information you give, but please share your experiences if the person asking is seeking information that they can then take to their healthcare professional. Again, great thread!

[avisg]

Also as IBK said with methadone and sub they need to be administered buy a doctor along with a recovery program .Also sometimes you hear people say I got the drug from my doctor for "so and so " not for the purpose wd. wd drugs need to be given to you from a doctor  with a program by a doc that  is aware of what you are going threw and is there in case there are any issues .

[salsinator]

Good post Sara and all of the comments here are good as well.  I could not agree more - suboxone and methadone are not to be messed with and should always come from a doctor. I went the subxone route with a doctor and while it was a long road, it did work out for me. Suboxone is not for everyone though and it is not the magic bullet to avoid withdrawal - since it is an opiate, one will eventually have to deal with that.  Anyhow, good post and great conversation debated on this thread. Thanks for posting Sara.

[Dav125]

The whole point of this thread backs up to a pattern that been developing over the past two weeks.

Individuals that were coming in and saying "do this' because it worked for me.. Baically one poster was saying "go find some methadone and do it this way".

In regard to you Back 2 life, somehow you have gotten the impression that this post was directed at you.. Sarah's comment was not directed toward you at all. Its meerly stating  what I said above. People in the forum recently have been advising people to do certain things and in the past two weeks it got bad with what I quoted above as being just one case.. Things that should be discussed with a  doctor and who should be doing the advising on and be authorizing.. Its ok to come in here and share your experiences with methods you used in the process of going thru wd's, even quoting the drugs you may have been " prescribed" for the process. But this comes from sharing about what "your doctor" did for "you" and its meant for informational purposes which you then could discuss "with your doctor".The key word here is "DOCTOR".

But this "try this approach that goes outside otc meds is not proper.Especially when talking about high powered meds that are actually worse than the drug someone is wanting to quit...When people like you Back 2 life come in here and ask "do you think this would be ok to take methadone to help" that is a question that specifically belongs with a doctor. Thats all anybody was trying to impress to you in your post, yet somehow you have decided that this is an attack upon you...It is not. I have seen plenty of posts about people being prescribed suboxone for oxy withdrawal, but never seen much talk about methadone being prescribed as a norm..So what you have is a group of people just asking you to please go see your doctor about this..So please just go do it, tell m\him of your plan, and then come back and tell us what he felt was the best course for you...

Something else I'd like to mention...I've seen this goodie two shoes stuff happen on occassion before as well as see some individuals jump on a poster speculating that they are doing this or denying that etc over the past few months before. But the events of the past two days is not on of those times..Its time to stop this play on words and get back to what the purpose of all this interaction is.

To support each other and advise within the guidelines of the forum..

[cantfly]

but i guess this is more about things like methodone etc than drinking warm milk (or eating chocca and bbq shapes -which are making me feel damgood atm.)
cheers.

[cantfly]

true -and what a world it would be without rules and guidlines. i guess it may come down to if it is advice or personal experiences shared. its just that i have lost all faith in drs, that is why i googled and found this wonderfull site.
i definatly dont think it would be right to tell somone what or howmuch of anything to take as we r all so different in so many ways.

[narla]

It is also angainst the guidelines of this forum to give others this sort of information,I'm sure the guidelines were put there for a reason.

[cantfly]

you make a good point- but the way i see it this is an internet site and i personaly would not make a decision on just one or even a few peoples advice. i guess the key words are resurch and credibility??

[IBKleen]

My two cents: I think the point everyone is missing is that it is a violation of our guidelines to post tapering schedules or to give tapering advise. The guidelines are posted at the top of the page and I don't think many members read them. That guideline is in place for the member's safety. Besides, if we do give out that information the post will be deleted anyway.

I do not look down on anyone who takes street drugs. My doc is heroin so I would really have to take a good look at myself if I were to do that.

I DO however explain to members that both Suboxone & Methadone are to be used properly along with counseling and outside support. These are programs designed to help addicts get off of drugs and get themselves "together", for lack of a better term. It is a chance to learn coping skills and relapse prevention just to name a few.

It concerns me when I hear members saying "I got 8 Suboxone or I got 20 Methadone pills, will these help me with withdrawal?". There is where I have the problem as I see people going on and off drugs and maintenance, drugs and maintenance, on and on. Known as "weekend warriors", I do not see how advising them to take drugs in this manner as helpful.

To stay in the original topic, I DO see that helping members who bought these maintenance drugs off the street as enabling.

[cantfly]

ummm -nothing like sensible personal experience...
i listened to my Dr and went cold turkey from tramadol -was in hospital in a bad way 12 hrs later... and he blames me cos i stopped oxycontin and some endone which i was on as well 6mths earlier -said it was my fault... self medicating by reducing my meds (and i was seeing him weekly)...grrr

[narla]

I suppose it's different in Australia,we have medicare and we can all see doctors for free,some specialists cost though.

What worries me about unqualified people giving advise on tapers or whether or not to use a substitute to help with withdrawals is if something goes wrong or if information given is wrong and god forbid something happens,who will be held responsible,are we accountable for what we say.
Personally in this age of litigation I wouldn't risk giving that sort of advice.Just my personal opinion.

Denise

[steedo]

This site is getting a little goddie two shoes. Its OK to be a addict, get your DOC off the street and Dr shop but when someone is trying to help themselves by taking sub off the street you all turn your noses up and tell them they are a lowlife for trying to get some help or guidence W/O a doctor. Half the sub doc's with their eight hour online course know less than the people here. Whell there are reasons that everyone can not go to a doctor, money, fear of paper trail, ect. Lots of reasons. I don't mean we should condone self medication or recomond it but sometimes it is an only option. Yes having a doctor helping one clean up is the best way but dont make these people feel like they are sub human becouse they are not under a docs care. Remember there are about 40 some million people out there without insurance. This site is one of the best and believe me I know I have been to a lot and others are full of bad advice, offers to sell pills and worse. I have been coming here for over 4 years and this is the best site but I feel it has changed a little for the bad. I think when one is asking for help on a sub taper and you can't even tell them to take a .5 mg sliver of sub to stabliize we are going too far. Lighten up a bit

[narla]

I also am an addict,and always will be,I too was self medicating,to cope with things from my childhood,for me it is what it is,I abused codeine for 20 years because I liked the way it made me feel,(or should I say not feel)I am also an alcoholic and I always will be,I was an active alcoholic for 34 years,but I am now 391 days clean and sober.

I personally don't think it matters why we used,what is important is we don't want to use anymore,and that is where talking to others that have been through getting clean can help,but as addicts it is not for us to give tapering schedules or discuss what you can use instead of your DOC,that should only be discussed with a doctor or a medical professional.

Denise  

[laurel453]

thank you, Franny... most of us here are addicts.... i was trying to make the point that people who become dependant on the painkillers because of the pain, if this pain is fixed, they stop taking their medication and they are finished with the meds whereas i am not finished .... i am still an addict even if i am not on active addiction i have to take care and a lot of work to do on myself ahead ..

[Franny62]

I admire your honesty, and courage laurel, and I so agree that Addiction is a disease. Both my Parents were Alcoholics, and I attended 100's of AA meetings as a kid, BTW I'm 62 years old, no kid. So If anyone understand this disease? I certainly do. I never meant to make light of your circumstances dealing with your disease? I'm pre-dispositioned to become an addict, and that's why I've never drank alcohol, or tried to abuse anything that makes me feel too good. Actually it would scare the heck out of me. I never noticed too much euphoria from the narcotics, and maybe that's because i always followed the directions when taking them. Believe me I know all about addiction, and I also know unlike some folks that it truly is a horrible disease. Take care, and believe me I take you seriously when you talk about this disease. My little Brother, and myself suffered greatly during our childhood. My Mother quit, and became a Mayor, and Municipal Judge, but My Father could never give it up. It destroyed him.

[laurel453]

I may not need the pain killers for the pain but I needed it because I am an  addict... , I took them because i was self medicating my own issues and yeah at first i may feel a high but at the end i was as sick as one can be , Franny.... addiction is a disease, an illness...i am not on active addiction but i am still an addict .