Advice for folks on Suboxone or thinking of it

[sw9281]

My best advise is  fivefold in terms of working with your Pain Dr when you start a Sub program. (I am almost 3 weeks off of Subs)

1- Do as short a taper period as possible. The longer you take subs the harder and longer the w/d will be.
2- Ask questions. My Pain Dr started me on 16 mg a day. I did this for 16 days and was beginning to believe I was developing dementure. As soon as I had my second appt, he wanted to put me on other drugs to offset these effects (which I rejected). I asked why he gave me 16 mg as it seemed like alot for the amount of Percs I was taking. He admitted it may be too much and I started a taper program. Within 2 weeks I was no longer worried about having dementure.
3-Keep excellent records of how much you are taking a day.Develope a plan and stick with it. You can make changes as you proceed but keep clear records. If you say I took about 5 mg today, maybe about 41/2 the next day etc, you have no idea if you are truly weaning your self off of Subs. You may have taken 51/2 mg on the second day which is counter productive to what you are trying to do. Know exactly how much you are taking each day and is staying on the schedule.
4- It is in the best interest of the pain Dr. to keep you on Subs as long as possible. Each visit earns money. Each RX he writes earns him money. He wants you to be on subs for years not weeks or months.
5-Once you have completed your taper and you have been off the opiates for months and Sub for weeks or months.get rid of all left over pills. I made the mistake of saving a few pills after I tapered directly off Percs for about 4 months. So if I take one pill it will make me feel better that night, That stupid decision started my Perc addiction again and added almost 3 years to the problem.

That is it for now, Hang in there, do not make any mistakes and have a good night

[sw9281]

Dr. thank you so much for responding and I really do believe you care. But someone needs to fight the fight for us about the w/d how unprepared and uniformed most of us are when we get into this. You would do us a great favor in working with the drug company and make them aware they need to place more resources on the w/d issues and best practices to minimize the effects. Everyone is different and there is no one formula, but there needs to be much more available info on the 2nd half of the process. Taking Subs is round 1 and 2 of the fight and getting thru w/d is rounds 3-12. Most fights are won and lost in these later rounds. I again thank you for really caring.

[mom_of_two136]

thanks for the information. I will check it out. I am still learning my way around the forum.

[refusingbondage]

I agree with tommm70.. after the years I spent on suboxone, I relapsed (mildly, but still a relapse nonetheless) within 3 months of being off..

I agree absolutely 100% that there is really no way to tell how you will react to starting it, how you will react on it and how you will react coming off of it... there are good stroies out there.  I have talked to people who had very little issues coming off suboxone..

I heard once that people should not read about how awful it *can* be because it puts it their mind there and they can mentally "fool themselves into feeling awful." (A doctor said this to me). And I can probably see a bit of truth in that.. our minds are extremely powerful.. but then I think about myself and how completely uneducated I was when I started subs and when I stopped subs.. I didnt find MH or read anything about its withdrawal until 12 days into sub detox (other than the standard pamphlet given to me by the doctor and the medication information packet by the pharmacy). So I had NOOO clue.. and was shocked and scared and going through the worst w/d of my life and MAD that no one warned me.. I should have been smarter and found out more about it from actual people who had used it and gotten off of it, before I ever started..
Lesson Learned Painfully lol

Catt- I am ready and have a voice and I can be loud!!  We should write a book. .Was talking about this a few months ago with another post suboxone person...

[liscamdave]

We have that already. If you look at the health pages, you will see members experiences there. Its a few of the members who have used sub and how it worked for them.

[tommm70]

As someone who is going to school to be an addiction counselor, you will quickly learn that relapse has absolutely nothing to do with the length of time you are on Suboxone. A relapse can happen at anytime, on any medication. Most will relapse at least once, and the good thing about a relapse is the fact it is a lesson learned. Once you are an addict, it is not easy to make the adjustments necessry to live clean and sober. Relapse is just part of that journey.

I believe Sub has it's place and is an effective tool when monitored by a doctor and other changes are being made in someones life.

sw9281 gave outstanding advice, and should not be accused of anything.

[mom_of_two136]

Thanks for the advice sw9281. I definitly want to be proactive and learn as much as I can and it is great to hear from those who have been through it. Everyone is reacts so differently with this medication so I am trying to arm myself with as much information as I can. I have some really good friends who have been through it with little problems. But everyone is different so I am trying to prepare myself to whatever may happen. Thanks again :))

Cattalina, it would be good to pool suboxone stories (good and bad) from those who have stopped using, how they did it, and how there life is today because there sure is alot of people on suboxone. The only problem with that may be that there would be more bad stories because the people with good stories may be off living their lives.

[cattalina]

I agree with not making blanket statements as well - the whole sub topic is especially prone to blanket statements and we really do need to be careful about that.
Although many doctors are pocketing the cash from sub patients with no regard to treatment, alot of these doctors are definitely just as misinformed as we are... many doctors don't even know what suboxone is. I know I say this all the time but it's so true - there needs to be more accurate knowledge shared within the addiction and medical communities. I also think we need to be careful about suggesting length of treatment to people in a blanket statement as well. Everyone is in their own situation, and we should definitely share our experiences but we have to keep in mind that it all varies. The bottom line is we should be encouraging people to do research first and foremost. You can find tons of stuff online - I found everything from pre-licensing clinical trials/current trials to info on brain receptors/sub. I keep thinking that we should pool all our suboxone stories together - the good, bad and ugly and share it with... someone who has a voice? I'm not really sure who!! lol

[Shelwoy]

I wasn't trying to shoot you down.I just hate when people blame the doctors, the drug, etc. instead of asking themselves what they could have done differently. I do agree that there are medical professionals who do not care, I have had my share of experiences with them.I have also worked with doctors who genuinely care about their patients recovery.
I have taken such an interest in teaching people about medication assisted recovery, that I am currently going to school to become an addictions counselor.I just do not feel it is fair to generalize your feelings as if all docs are out for the money.That is not why I chose to get involved in this field.I want people to have a better understanding of their disease.

[liscamdave]

Also, I think Sw9281 has a good point. My sub dr was a 5-10 minute visit once a week. I would walk in and tell him I was doing good with the 16mgs a day he had me on, then he would write another script for a week's worth of sub;s then send me on my way. No tests to see if I were actually taking the drug, nothing. I tried to talk to him about a taper and he said I needed to be on it at least a year to two years to gain its effects properly. So multiply that by the 75 a week it cost to see him to even get the script. Then the 7-8$ a pill it cost to refill the script every week. Even from my very first appt, when I was still taking the oxy's, he never tested me then either. He barely knew much about it. I thought it was weird.

[liscamdave]

Everyone is different. Not two people's w.d will be the same, even if they do the exact same taper. One of our old CL"s who hasn't been here in over a year, did a 7-10 day detox with sub. I think it may have been 7, but I forget. And she had minimal w.d. It wasn't great, but she did it and she is still clean to this day. I did a 27 day taper with sub and I got through it with some w.d., it wasn't fun, but wasn't as bad as the oxy's. Then there are some that have walked away with just headaches. So we are all different.

[refusingbondage]

I can say that I do not think all suboxone doctors are evil money hungry drug pushers (although some are I am sure of it) but what I know from my personal experience is that you do not get the full truth from them.. I dont know if they withold it, or more likely they dont know about it.  I spent over 2 1/2 years on suboxone.  My insurance did cover my monthly doctor visits and my monthly scripts.  It cost me 35/month for the visit and 35/month for the script.  I saw this doctor every single month and I will be honest, he was always kind and caring and spent time talking with me every time.  He would make sure I was seeing a therapist, make sure I was feeling ok.  Asked about craving, the whole deal.  We always talked about the taper and honestly some tapering months were extremely extremely difficult.. 4mg to 2mg was awful and took me months.. 2mg to 1mg the same thing.  He also told me many times that he has many patients who will be on it for life and 'thats ok too.'  But I didnt want that..

When I made my last visit with him I told him I was quitting at 1mg.  We hugged.  We had tears in our eyes.  He told me how proud he was of me.  He then looked me dead in the eyes and promised me I would have very little to no withdrawal at all.

I spent months in physical withdrawal.

I definitely agree that the doctors are NOT telling their patients about how difficult a detox suboxone can be.  I dont know why. Maybe they dont want to scare us.. Maybe they just arent aware of how bad it can be.  I STILL have not found the nerve to go to the suboxone doctor to tell him how hard it was (7 months later).. I am too angry still.  

[guv338]

Short Term or Long Term, withdrawing from Suboxone is Not Fun at all.  I did the quickest taper I think is possible.  16mg for 4 days, then dropped 2 mgs every third day.  Total of 25 days on Suboxone.  My last day of Suboxone was 2-24-09.  Now  12 weeks or 84 days later, I still struggle daily with the effects of all of this.  So I really dont
know how long the Long Term Sub user goes through effects of WD, but I do know how
long this Short Term Sub user has been going through the effects, and my friend it may only be 12 short weeks, which in the grand sceem of things is a relatively short amount of time after the years and years of using, but it seems like an eternity.

[sw9281]

I am happy that you are doing so well during the tapering period, and also that you have a great Dr. My Dr. was pretty good until I stopped taking the subs.

This board and my resolve has allowed me to be on day 21 today. The Dr that tryed to discredit me never gave me or anyone else in need any help (that I have seen). He was only protecting his turf.

You have a good Dr. But spend plenty of time preparing for the 1st 2 weeks of w/d with him/her. Get a list of likely side effects and a suggested course of action to address each of these.

I hope this is included in the 8 hour training session. IN MY OPINION ONLY I speculate that the training consists of teaching the benefits of Suboxone, how to dispense it, that SUB should be used long term or even for life and then a compensation program is discussed for writing as many SUB rxs as possible. Again only speculation based on my experience and others writings on this boards experiences.

SUBS can be good, they saved me from my terrible addiction. But I was only told that the w/d would be much less than the w/d from the Percs. Nothing else. There is so much more they can do for us to help and prepare us for the w/d but I am afraid to say that would reduce revenue. Staying on SUBS for as long as possible increases revenue. I do believe both the manufacturer and Drs. are generally trying to increase revenues.

Mom of two, I will close this by saying just prepare yourself for w/d the best you can.It is right around the corner. Best of luck and if your Dr does not know enoungh about w/d issues the folks on this board sure do. Don't be shy.

[mom_of_two136]

I think we have to be careful about making blanket statements about this medication. There is such a wide variety of experiences out there. Personally, I have a really good doctor that takes the time with me. All we can do is share our experiences and remember everyone is different. I have had a really good experience so far with suboxone. I know that is not the case with everyone. I put the word out that you can have a good experience with it. My experience may change as I continue to wean off, I do not know. I do have three friends who have successfully weaned off with very little problems. I hope that is what will happen with me. I think the key for anyone considering suboxone is to do research and only use it as a last resort. Also to research doctors before jumping into this. SW9281, you bring up a excellent point. You have to be proactive with your health. Find a good doctor, but also take charge for yourself. Anyway, I just think we have to be careful how we say things. Nobody should shoot anybody down in there recovery or wanting to share their experiences. We are all doing the best we can. God Bless

[flmagi]

SW9281, Keep up with sharing your experiances. Great advise.

[worried878]

great advice!  for any drug or taper..those r really good words of advice

[sw9281]

Please tell us how many hours of training that is provided by the manufacturer of the drug. Of those hours how much time is spent on lunch, breaks, calls to the office etc. How many hours were spent on useful training?  I have been to my share of 1 day training courses provided by the manufacturer. It is not possible to prepare a Dr. with all the issues in the 3-4 hours you actually have class.

My Pain Dr gave me 16 mg a day which was double what he should have given me. He had no idea how long I will be on the Subs only that it would be years or maybe life. He did not prepare me for any of the effects while on the subs or what w/d would be like. He did nothing except spend 20 minutes convincing me that Subs was the way to go and advised me not to go to detox. When I went for my 3rd appointment I presented him an excel spreadsheet showing him that I created my own taper schedule, needed about 4 more Subs to finish and still had over 50 left from my 2nd RX. He still handed me an RX for 60 more 8 mg Subs after telling me that I was in a group of less than 10% of his patients that Subs have worked for. Please tell me the manufacturer does not pay the Drs. for submitting issued copies of SUB RXs.

Just because I failed 3 years ago when I still did not admit to myself that I was addicted. I took one pill for pain and the addiction was back. If a baseball player strikes out does that mean he can never teach others how to hit?

You Drs. have never gone through what we are going through. You have only been taught how Subs should work based on work done by the company that makes them.

Yes they can be effective but much more truthful information must be shared with potential users. Better instructions need to be provided about tapering off the Subs. It seems like we are all on our own in that area. Drs. should be in constant communication with the patient during the 1st month of withdrawal.

What are your motives of shooting me down when I am trying to share my experiences with my comrades. I am 54 years old, a professional in the energy industry and have no motives other that trying to help others who are suffering every minute of every day primarily because they have been ill prepared by their doctor to be successful on the Suboxone program.

[Shelwoy]

So, you relapsed, and you are giving advice on Suboxone? Let me explain something to you about the length of time you should be on the drug and why.Some doctors may be in it for the money, but most of them are following a protocol they learned which teaches them about how opiates affect the brain and cause long term damage.Sometimes that damage is irreversible, but Suboxone helps you while you are healing from that damage, and makes it easier to recover.
The fact that you relapsed only proves the point that you did not give your recovery enough time.There are things that will help you like group support.Best of luck to you!