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low dose naltrexone for subutex paws
ok a little history first, 10 years on herion and 6 years on subutex. Went from 12mg to 4mg to 0mg. Went in a 5 day detox (detox 5, uk). It was a little expensive, but for me it was worth doing because my sub use was starting to effect my work. wow looking back i do not know how i kept my job through a 10 year smack habit, My breakfast used to be a bag and a joint hehe. Any way, the detox itself was quite easy, i did not even vomit or have diarrea. So they must have there meds right now. (When i first went in a few years ago, it was a different story, i ran out of boxer shorts hehe). What they do not tell you at the end of the detox, is that the next 3 months can be hell for long term sub users. Before i left i had a 3 month Naltrexone implant put in. Would i recommend a implant? well yes and no. No because i felt really depressed for the 3 months i was on it, but a lot of that could of been because of the detox. Naltrexone blocks your own natraul endorphines as well as all opiates. Yes, because it guarantees that you will get 3 months clean under your belt, even when you think you cannot take anymore.
So its been 4 months now, still not 100% because of paws, if i look back its not half as bad as it was. The deep depression has gone, energy slowly coming back, sleep starting to get better. Not really want to wait another 4 months to get 100% better.
So thought i would try low dose naltrexone at night 2mg, i tried it for 3 nights, well i was surprised, By day 2 i felt good again, not 100%, but 90%. (At low dose's, it blocks your endorphine receptors for a few hours, so when it wears off your brain is meant to compensate and produce extra endorphines eg 300%.). I had high levels of energy and my motivation had come back. As an experiment i stopped and 2 days later everything went back to normal eg energy and motivation a little low. So i can report it does work for the short term.
Has anyone else experimented with ldn for paws, i would like to here how you got on long term? I stopped because as we all know, you do not get pleasure for free, there is always the day we have to pay it back 10 fold. I remember thinking subs were wonderfull at first, how wrong was i hehehe.
So i was wondering if ldn gives you a endorphine hit through out the day, i guess your body would get used to this, so does paws come back after you stop taking it? does it make paws worse? How long does it work for? before our brains get used to the higher endorphines levels?
Also how long there paws last for? meant to be going on holiday with my girlfriend soon, but not really want to go if i still have paws. Oh one last question, has anyone been drinking when in paws, does it make it worse? thanks
P.S My friend did a sub detox but did it the taper method, i think this method is a lot better for paws, as it gives your body and brain time to adjust. He reports feeling fine now.
So its been 4 months now, still not 100% because of paws, if i look back its not half as bad as it was. The deep depression has gone, energy slowly coming back, sleep starting to get better. Not really want to wait another 4 months to get 100% better.
So thought i would try low dose naltrexone at night 2mg, i tried it for 3 nights, well i was surprised, By day 2 i felt good again, not 100%, but 90%. (At low dose's, it blocks your endorphine receptors for a few hours, so when it wears off your brain is meant to compensate and produce extra endorphines eg 300%.). I had high levels of energy and my motivation had come back. As an experiment i stopped and 2 days later everything went back to normal eg energy and motivation a little low. So i can report it does work for the short term.
Has anyone else experimented with ldn for paws, i would like to here how you got on long term? I stopped because as we all know, you do not get pleasure for free, there is always the day we have to pay it back 10 fold. I remember thinking subs were wonderfull at first, how wrong was i hehehe.
So i was wondering if ldn gives you a endorphine hit through out the day, i guess your body would get used to this, so does paws come back after you stop taking it? does it make paws worse? How long does it work for? before our brains get used to the higher endorphines levels?
Also how long there paws last for? meant to be going on holiday with my girlfriend soon, but not really want to go if i still have paws. Oh one last question, has anyone been drinking when in paws, does it make it worse? thanks
P.S My friend did a sub detox but did it the taper method, i think this method is a lot better for paws, as it gives your body and brain time to adjust. He reports feeling fine now.
That's cool I can appreciate different points of view - and I have no experience with sub withdrawal so I'm not speaking from personal experience, only from the research I found on PAWS. But it's cool - I'm okay with agreeing to disagree! :)
Hiya. Am from the UK too. I've been on Subutex for 5 years now..
About LDN I've researched about it too. I know few people who did this route and all say after few days to a week on LDN you feel really crappy, low energy, depression etc, so it doesnt work for the long run, if anything it makes PAWS worst...Its no point doing it for 2-3 days, don't forget Sub hangs aroung a long time and something like LDN cannot suddenly kick start Endorphins which were reduced by Buprenorphine!..Someone in the U.S tried LDN for sub PAWS and only took it for the max 2 weeks (on & off), just to experiment, they claimed it helped for 1-2 days but then they became zombies..So then they went off the LDN and felt much better...They were on Buprenorphine-Suboxone for 5 years and their PAWS are gone too.
Best bet was to taper the sub, it can take literally 6-7 months to taper from 16mgs, hence of your depression 4 months out, those 4 months one can taper from 4mgs, you get the picture? if it takes that long to taper then obviously doing a quick detox as you did you will still feel some PAWS-depression 4 months out...Am on 1mgs now. Ive have no problems tapering from 8mgs...I will take another 2-3 months to go from 1mgs to 0 to give me the best chance possible to ride the withdrawals and PAWS...You should have tapered man. Also I excercise a lot and that makes a big difference to my tapering and mindset!
By the way what do they do in detox 5? what meds do they give?
About LDN I've researched about it too. I know few people who did this route and all say after few days to a week on LDN you feel really crappy, low energy, depression etc, so it doesnt work for the long run, if anything it makes PAWS worst...Its no point doing it for 2-3 days, don't forget Sub hangs aroung a long time and something like LDN cannot suddenly kick start Endorphins which were reduced by Buprenorphine!..Someone in the U.S tried LDN for sub PAWS and only took it for the max 2 weeks (on & off), just to experiment, they claimed it helped for 1-2 days but then they became zombies..So then they went off the LDN and felt much better...They were on Buprenorphine-Suboxone for 5 years and their PAWS are gone too.
Best bet was to taper the sub, it can take literally 6-7 months to taper from 16mgs, hence of your depression 4 months out, those 4 months one can taper from 4mgs, you get the picture? if it takes that long to taper then obviously doing a quick detox as you did you will still feel some PAWS-depression 4 months out...Am on 1mgs now. Ive have no problems tapering from 8mgs...I will take another 2-3 months to go from 1mgs to 0 to give me the best chance possible to ride the withdrawals and PAWS...You should have tapered man. Also I excercise a lot and that makes a big difference to my tapering and mindset!
By the way what do they do in detox 5? what meds do they give?
Thanks for your reply. Yes i think you might be right about ldn, only working for a short amount of time on subutex paws. Im guessing it increases endorphines at first, then seems to stop working. So i think you have helped me make up my mind, looks like i will have to ride this paws out naturaly. Bummer hehe.
My mate did the long slow taper method like you, After about 5 years on subutex. And i think he did not suffer paws. If you get down to 0.25 i would stay there for a month or 2 just to make sure you do not get paws. Its a right pain, no motivation, low energy and depression, its not acute, its more the length of time it takes thats the really annoying thing. You feel like it will never end. I would of tapered if i could, but the subs stopped holding me and i was finding it hard to stay on 4mg. Are they still working and holding you?
Not 100% sure of all the meds you get at detox 5,Trazadone, buscaban, naltrexone, sickness tablets, plus some injections. but they do work quite well, even when they give you naltrexone on the thursday. I did not even vomit or have diarra. I found it just got you over the acute withdrawal phaze. But there is still a lot of work to do when you get home.
Your brain still needs time to recover.
Good luck with your final taper, i think thats the best root to take if you can do it. You will have to let me know how you get on. I hope you will be like my mate and miss out on the paws. Its the gift that keeps on giving hehe.
p.s Oh I would keep away from naltrexone, unless u are very scared of relapsing, At high doses it blocks your natural endorphines as well. I had a 3 month implant, i can still feel a small lump, so maybe im still getting a small dose, so maybe thats causing the depression.
My mate did the long slow taper method like you, After about 5 years on subutex. And i think he did not suffer paws. If you get down to 0.25 i would stay there for a month or 2 just to make sure you do not get paws. Its a right pain, no motivation, low energy and depression, its not acute, its more the length of time it takes thats the really annoying thing. You feel like it will never end. I would of tapered if i could, but the subs stopped holding me and i was finding it hard to stay on 4mg. Are they still working and holding you?
Not 100% sure of all the meds you get at detox 5,Trazadone, buscaban, naltrexone, sickness tablets, plus some injections. but they do work quite well, even when they give you naltrexone on the thursday. I did not even vomit or have diarra. I found it just got you over the acute withdrawal phaze. But there is still a lot of work to do when you get home.
Your brain still needs time to recover.
Good luck with your final taper, i think thats the best root to take if you can do it. You will have to let me know how you get on. I hope you will be like my mate and miss out on the paws. Its the gift that keeps on giving hehe.
p.s Oh I would keep away from naltrexone, unless u are very scared of relapsing, At high doses it blocks your natural endorphines as well. I had a 3 month implant, i can still feel a small lump, so maybe im still getting a small dose, so maybe thats causing the depression.
What if I transfer to a short-acting-opiate once I reach 0,2mg of Subutex-Temgesic? just to hold out the half-life of sub.
Also I believed that u cannot do a rapid detox of buprenorphine, not in the UK anyway and even in the US for most folks it doesnt work because of the long half-life of Sub...They eventually say all the withdrawals and PAWS come back and u must do it a slow and needs time without inputting any meds, injections etc...u am curious how did they rid all that half-life of Sub from u, even though they gabe u naltrexone the sub has a very-long half-life, so add that together from all your previous doses it can takes weeks and months for that half-life to go out so am curious how they managed to do it in 5 days.
Also I believed that u cannot do a rapid detox of buprenorphine, not in the UK anyway and even in the US for most folks it doesnt work because of the long half-life of Sub...They eventually say all the withdrawals and PAWS come back and u must do it a slow and needs time without inputting any meds, injections etc...u am curious how did they rid all that half-life of Sub from u, even though they gabe u naltrexone the sub has a very-long half-life, so add that together from all your previous doses it can takes weeks and months for that half-life to go out so am curious how they managed to do it in 5 days.
And about LDN. I heard the more u take it the less it raises Endorphins, for instance u take it for the first time it may raise ur endorphines for about few days, but if u take a second time in few days or weeks then it doesnt do the same job, meaning it doesnt always raise endorphines, I think thats true based on my Research and from people's experiences..Its no point raising endorphins for 1 day or 2 only to be extend the PAWS and LDN to stop-working.
How do u take the LDN? from on-line pharmacies right? because here in the UK they dont give u a LDN, only 50 tablet, so u must do-make it yourself right?
How do u take the LDN? from on-line pharmacies right? because here in the UK they dont give u a LDN, only 50 tablet, so u must do-make it yourself right?
Your mistaken about not being able to do a rapid detox off subs, they give you naltrexone on the 4 day which strips all the subs out of your system. It has a stronger binding effect on your receptors than subs, so knocks all the subs off your receptors and blocks them with naltrexone.
But i think your right about ldn hehe, i have taken it again tonight, but will not be doing it again. Looks like i will just have to be patient.
I got a months supply from the detox centre so i just crush them up 50mg and split down to 2mg.
How are you finding your taper, i used to get big headaches when i tapered.
But i think your right about ldn hehe, i have taken it again tonight, but will not be doing it again. Looks like i will just have to be patient.
I got a months supply from the detox centre so i just crush them up 50mg and split down to 2mg.
How are you finding your taper, i used to get big headaches when i tapered.
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