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low dose naltrexone for subutex paws
ok a little history first, 10 years on herion and 6 years on subutex. Went from 12mg to 4mg to 0mg. Went in a 5 day detox (detox 5, uk). It was a little expensive, but for me it was worth doing because my sub use was starting to effect my work. wow looking back i do not know how i kept my job through a 10 year smack habit, My breakfast used to be a bag and a joint hehe. Any way, the detox itself was quite easy, i did not even vomit or have diarrea. So they must have there meds right now. (When i first went in a few years ago, it was a different story, i ran out of boxer shorts hehe). What they do not tell you at the end of the detox, is that the next 3 months can be hell for long term sub users. Before i left i had a 3 month Naltrexone implant put in. Would i recommend a implant? well yes and no. No because i felt really depressed for the 3 months i was on it, but a lot of that could of been because of the detox. Naltrexone blocks your own natraul endorphines as well as all opiates. Yes, because it guarantees that you will get 3 months clean under your belt, even when you think you cannot take anymore.
So its been 4 months now, still not 100% because of paws, if i look back its not half as bad as it was. The deep depression has gone, energy slowly coming back, sleep starting to get better. Not really want to wait another 4 months to get 100% better.
So thought i would try low dose naltrexone at night 2mg, i tried it for 3 nights, well i was surprised, By day 2 i felt good again, not 100%, but 90%. (At low dose's, it blocks your endorphine receptors for a few hours, so when it wears off your brain is meant to compensate and produce extra endorphines eg 300%.). I had high levels of energy and my motivation had come back. As an experiment i stopped and 2 days later everything went back to normal eg energy and motivation a little low. So i can report it does work for the short term.
Has anyone else experimented with ldn for paws, i would like to here how you got on long term? I stopped because as we all know, you do not get pleasure for free, there is always the day we have to pay it back 10 fold. I remember thinking subs were wonderfull at first, how wrong was i hehehe.
So i was wondering if ldn gives you a endorphine hit through out the day, i guess your body would get used to this, so does paws come back after you stop taking it? does it make paws worse? How long does it work for? before our brains get used to the higher endorphines levels?
Also how long there paws last for? meant to be going on holiday with my girlfriend soon, but not really want to go if i still have paws. Oh one last question, has anyone been drinking when in paws, does it make it worse? thanks
P.S My friend did a sub detox but did it the taper method, i think this method is a lot better for paws, as it gives your body and brain time to adjust. He reports feeling fine now.
So its been 4 months now, still not 100% because of paws, if i look back its not half as bad as it was. The deep depression has gone, energy slowly coming back, sleep starting to get better. Not really want to wait another 4 months to get 100% better.
So thought i would try low dose naltrexone at night 2mg, i tried it for 3 nights, well i was surprised, By day 2 i felt good again, not 100%, but 90%. (At low dose's, it blocks your endorphine receptors for a few hours, so when it wears off your brain is meant to compensate and produce extra endorphines eg 300%.). I had high levels of energy and my motivation had come back. As an experiment i stopped and 2 days later everything went back to normal eg energy and motivation a little low. So i can report it does work for the short term.
Has anyone else experimented with ldn for paws, i would like to here how you got on long term? I stopped because as we all know, you do not get pleasure for free, there is always the day we have to pay it back 10 fold. I remember thinking subs were wonderfull at first, how wrong was i hehehe.
So i was wondering if ldn gives you a endorphine hit through out the day, i guess your body would get used to this, so does paws come back after you stop taking it? does it make paws worse? How long does it work for? before our brains get used to the higher endorphines levels?
Also how long there paws last for? meant to be going on holiday with my girlfriend soon, but not really want to go if i still have paws. Oh one last question, has anyone been drinking when in paws, does it make it worse? thanks
P.S My friend did a sub detox but did it the taper method, i think this method is a lot better for paws, as it gives your body and brain time to adjust. He reports feeling fine now.
there was a study it showed 300mg could cuse damage, said 50mg ok. so 0.5mg, so to me 0.5mg would be like a sip of vodka, not a bottle lol. so i feel ldn and liver damage is not an issue.
Plus i think your right its best to ride out paws naturaly, but after 19 weeks of feeling low and having no motivation can be a real drag. Can make you feel like going back to a small dose of subs. So maybe ldn is the lessor of the the 2 evils.
Plus i think your right its best to ride out paws naturaly, but after 19 weeks of feeling low and having no motivation can be a real drag. Can make you feel like going back to a small dose of subs. So maybe ldn is the lessor of the the 2 evils.
Think this is day 5 with no ldn, still no deep depression, which was the worse bit. I will have to wait and see what this week brings.
I completely agree about exercise making you feel better, also chocolate, chilli's, sex,
help with endorphines. chocolate can slow degradation of endorphines,
And i agree, subs mess with your brain chemistry more than most opiates, one reason i think is because it effects the kappa receptors more than normal opiates. I reduced off meth, took about 1 year and did not get paws.
I completely agree about exercise making you feel better, also chocolate, chilli's, sex,
help with endorphines. chocolate can slow degradation of endorphines,
And i agree, subs mess with your brain chemistry more than most opiates, one reason i think is because it effects the kappa receptors more than normal opiates. I reduced off meth, took about 1 year and did not get paws.
yes we can agree sub is a crazy drug if used for the long term, what annoys me is the info the drug worker gave me. Said nothing about the problems of long term use, and said the withdrawals are mild. I really think they do not understand about subs because they are working off information given to them from sub manufactures.
One theory about ldn, sub use cause's our brains to produce extra opiate receptors, so when we stop subs our bodies produce there natural level of endorphines, but this level is no where near enough to fill up all the extra receptors. We need time for these receptors to turn off. (I think you can wake them back up quickly if you go back to opiates, thats why an ex addict can get there tolerance back quickly). So if we use ldn untill some of the receptors die off, this could be a gentle way to ride out paws.
I have found a couple of people on the net that said ldn worked for there sub paws.
At the end of the day its all guess work, good luck with your taper, i would not jump off at 0.2, i would go low low low then skip days, i think this method gives you the best chance of missing the paws phase.
One theory about ldn, sub use cause's our brains to produce extra opiate receptors, so when we stop subs our bodies produce there natural level of endorphines, but this level is no where near enough to fill up all the extra receptors. We need time for these receptors to turn off. (I think you can wake them back up quickly if you go back to opiates, thats why an ex addict can get there tolerance back quickly). So if we use ldn untill some of the receptors die off, this could be a gentle way to ride out paws.
I have found a couple of people on the net that said ldn worked for there sub paws.
At the end of the day its all guess work, good luck with your taper, i would not jump off at 0.2, i would go low low low then skip days, i think this method gives you the best chance of missing the paws phase.
Also when u take LDN it can raise the endorphins for 5 days to a week, espeacially the more you take it, so even if u took it for 2 days and stopped your Endorphins would still have been risen, but when the LDN leaves the system your more easily prone to depression, it works for few days and thats about it, because if u take it once or twice you feel u have to take it regularly and when u do that your sucking yourself up more for depression, so really there is no point taking something which when u stop makes depression worst, and also stops working, this is from people's experiences who used LDN for sub and methadone too.
So far my taper has been ok, am at 0.8mgs now..The only thing that works me for is excercise, if I dont excercise then I would feel a bit craaap, bored and taper wouldnt be that comfortable, but because of the excercise its holding me...I also drink lot of water and also sorted out any issues in my life which can make PAWS and withdrawals and taper seem worse then it is...I think the mindset needs to change, for instance if one is a bitter jelous insecure person then PAWS will be long for them, if one is nice person with amibtion and bit civlized then PAWS can be controllable, but like I said PAWS can be there not just because of bup and it's half-life but also what bup has done to the mind and body, so one needs to get checked out for everything just to be on the safe-side!!!!.. Also 2mgs off bup is about 3-4 months worth of tapering, so if someone stops at 2mgs they will most likely have mild withdrawals and PAWS for 4 months, you get me? whereas if one stops at 0,2mgs and tapered to that dose slowly then they only withdraw from 0,2 which is like a week or 2 weeks of mild withdrawls, so yeah I agree about the slow wean helping PAWS, but also what bup does to our mind, liver, testorone, blood, brain etc all can contribute to PAWS, so again get checked out, so then at least u can eliminate any possibility PAWS being caused by something else other then Sub-Bup.
So far my taper has been ok, am at 0.8mgs now..The only thing that works me for is excercise, if I dont excercise then I would feel a bit craaap, bored and taper wouldnt be that comfortable, but because of the excercise its holding me...I also drink lot of water and also sorted out any issues in my life which can make PAWS and withdrawals and taper seem worse then it is...I think the mindset needs to change, for instance if one is a bitter jelous insecure person then PAWS will be long for them, if one is nice person with amibtion and bit civlized then PAWS can be controllable, but like I said PAWS can be there not just because of bup and it's half-life but also what bup has done to the mind and body, so one needs to get checked out for everything just to be on the safe-side!!!!.. Also 2mgs off bup is about 3-4 months worth of tapering, so if someone stops at 2mgs they will most likely have mild withdrawals and PAWS for 4 months, you get me? whereas if one stops at 0,2mgs and tapered to that dose slowly then they only withdraw from 0,2 which is like a week or 2 weeks of mild withdrawls, so yeah I agree about the slow wean helping PAWS, but also what bup does to our mind, liver, testorone, blood, brain etc all can contribute to PAWS, so again get checked out, so then at least u can eliminate any possibility PAWS being caused by something else other then Sub-Bup.
Hey man.. Yes I get what your saying, same thing was said about bup-sub about the half-l/ife being 37 hours yet people still experience foggyness-paws for weeks on end, its the same with LDN, it might leave your system for a few days but mentally its still there...Did u know sub PAWS can also be caused by the effects by sub? meaning something like brain lesions? tyroid? testorone? all this can be effectd by sub and can lead to PAWS or/and long PAWS, so try to get yourself checked out..Someone I know still has PAWS 2 years after jumping from bup, she was on it for 2 years, she said depression was worse, no motivation, numbness etc and she decided to go to the Doctors and guess what? she had an MRI scan which revealed 11 brain-lesions, all caused by the sub, if she never had these brain-lesions then she would have not had PAWS this long, so yeah get yourself checked out for anything, get blood-testes, liver test, brain test etc I know its not good news but thats one of the reasons why people have long PAWS, because sub triggers something in our bodies and mind...
There are no long-term studies on bup, it's still relatively new opiod, espeacially for maintence and nobody truly knows the long-term effects of bup if take for long-term. It does makes sense why some people have long PAWS though, another person also had brain-lesions after bup , so it's not always the sub alone whch gives u paws but what sub does to the mind and body which triggers sickness, illnesses etc which give long PAWS.
About the LDN and liver, my Doctor said even 0.5mg is effective as a bottle of vodka, someone did a liver test and they had ineffective liver enzymes because of LDN, thats what my doctor said so there is a possibility it effects parts of the body such as Liver..
There are no long-term studies on bup, it's still relatively new opiod, espeacially for maintence and nobody truly knows the long-term effects of bup if take for long-term. It does makes sense why some people have long PAWS though, another person also had brain-lesions after bup , so it's not always the sub alone whch gives u paws but what sub does to the mind and body which triggers sickness, illnesses etc which give long PAWS.
About the LDN and liver, my Doctor said even 0.5mg is effective as a bottle of vodka, someone did a liver test and they had ineffective liver enzymes because of LDN, thats what my doctor said so there is a possibility it effects parts of the body such as Liver..
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