low dose naltrexone for subutex paws

[waiting88]

   ok a little history first, 10 years on herion and 6 years on subutex. Went from 12mg to 4mg to 0mg. Went in a 5 day detox (detox 5, uk). It was a little expensive, but for me it was worth doing because my sub use was starting to effect my work. wow looking back i do not know how i kept my job through a 10 year smack habit, My breakfast used to be a bag and a joint hehe. Any way, the detox itself was quite easy, i did not even vomit or have diarrea. So they must have there meds right now. (When i first went in a few years ago, it was a different story, i ran out of boxer shorts hehe). What they do not tell you at the end of the detox, is that the next 3 months can be hell for long term sub users.  Before i left i had a 3 month Naltrexone implant put in. Would i recommend a implant? well yes and no. No because i felt really depressed for the 3 months i was on it, but a lot of that could of been because of the detox. Naltrexone blocks your own natraul endorphines as well as all opiates. Yes, because it guarantees that you will get 3 months clean under your belt, even when you think you cannot take anymore.
     So its been 4 months now, still not 100% because of paws, if i look back its not half as bad as it was. The deep depression has gone, energy slowly coming back, sleep starting to get better. Not really want to wait another 4 months to get 100% better.
   So thought i would try low dose naltrexone at night 2mg, i tried it for 3 nights, well i was surprised, By day 2 i felt good again, not 100%, but 90%. (At low dose's, it blocks your endorphine receptors for a few hours, so when it wears off your brain is meant to compensate and produce extra endorphines eg 300%.). I had high levels of energy and my motivation had come back. As an experiment i stopped and 2 days later everything went back to normal eg energy and motivation a little low. So i can report it does work for the short term.
    Has anyone else experimented with ldn for paws, i would like to here how you got on long term? I stopped because as we all know, you do not get pleasure for free, there is always the day we have to pay it back 10 fold. I remember thinking subs were wonderfull at first, how wrong was i hehehe.
     So i was wondering if ldn gives you a endorphine hit through out the day, i guess your body would get used to this, so does paws come back after you stop taking it? does it make paws worse? How long does it work for? before our brains get used to the higher endorphines levels?
     Also how long there paws last for? meant to be going on holiday with my girlfriend soon, but not really want to go if i still have paws. Oh one last question, has anyone been drinking when in paws, does it make it worse? thanks
  P.S My friend did a sub detox but did it the taper method, i think this method is a lot better for paws, as it gives your body and brain time to adjust. He reports feeling fine now.  
      

[Daimy]

I contacted Detox-5 and they said if you wean down to the lowest amount possible and so it slow then there is no need to come in for detox..I think they only detox folks who stopped at a high dose or weaned down quickly in the space of a week or so..Is that true Waiting88? they said it's not really going to be worth getting detoxed over 0.2mg as most of the sub will have gotten out of your system, or whatever sub is in your system is only 0.2mg worth of withdrawal which is not worth paying £3,000 for as it won't be so intense..You tapered pretty fast didnt you and was on a high dose when you went into Detox-5 right?.


I didnt plan to use Naltrexone and I dont, well not at the moment, if I did it will always be a week or 2 after I jump...Am just concerned about it blocking Natural-Endorphins when your Endoprhins are already going to be depleted for weeks and months..Also I dont plan on using opiates to get high or relapse.. I haven't touced heroin in 5 years and haven't touched anything else either..I've totally changed that mindset a long time ago.. I only ever did heroin 4 years on and off, but it's just a shame I've been on Subutex this long..Hopefully my age, my pshycal-routine, mentally stable etc will get me past the withdrawals and PAWS..I also hav a very supportive family so that will keep me in good-stead!

[waiting88]

Warning warning, never never never take a full dose of naltrexone when on subs and at home. You will want to kill yourself because of the pain. I know 2 guys did it together, both said they would of shot themselves if they had a gun.
You talk about depression because of the naltrexone on day 4, its not really an issuie, because of all the meds your on and your asleep most of the time.
And yes detox 5 only gets you past the acute detox phaze,  But if you do a natural acute withdrawal at home, no way will you start to feel better after 4 or 5 days. Its only just kicking in after day 4.
Im glad your tapers going well, i think thats the best method. good luck with it. Some days im  tempted go back on 0.2 0r 0.4mg, because of this bloody paws. Its not that bad for 1 day, but after 4.5 months it gets a little annoying hehe.

[Daimy]

I mean about 50mg naltrexone, when they give it to you on the 4th day your already coming out of a deranged state & have some depression anyway, so mxing naltrexone on the 4th or 5th day just causes more depression and lowers the Endorphins, the Endorpins are already depleted during the 4th and/or 5thday so I dont really think it's worth it..I mean the subs can be knocked of the receptors but it's the half-life which cannot, hence of what contributes to PAWS..Also receptors have already been flooded because of the half-life and thus one gets PAWS..

[Daimy]

But then anything such as Lofexidine can cover you until the acute withdrawals of Subutex go away or Clonidine..The half-life is so stacked in the system that even when any sub in your system is out you still feel withdrawals, albeit mild but long, you dont need neltrexone for that, you only need 4-5 days to a week for sub to get out of your system, but it;s the half-life which contributes to PAWS which is the main issue..I know many sub users who dont mind so much the acute withdrawals but the PAWS which u have are the issue, I know it looks like a big waste of money going inpaitient-detox-5 to get off sub but one can take diazepam or anything else for a week to rid the subs out of the system. Because it's the receptors which sub fills and thus give PAWS! Many people dont vomit or get sick when going through Subute-Buprenorphine withdrawals but they get sick of the long-lasting withdrawals of it which your having, in that sense it seems bit of a waste doing detox-5 to get off sub. Remember stuff as such heroin have hardcore acute withdrawals, they are totally different to Subutex withdrawals..You could have just taken some meds until sub came out and you';d still be in the same boat...Also naltrexone tablers are dirty cheap for the net and u could have done it yourself..I  got tons of naltrexone tablets at home, all for the price for a mere £20....Also when taking neltrexone it it depletes your endorphins more, mix that with coming off opiates or sub it just gives you extra grief and depression...Like u said best method is taper slowly or use comfort meds to get subs out of your system instead of paying all that much money for detox-5..What folks suffer with is PAWS,many would rather have acute withdrawals then suffere paws for months and years...

MY taper is soo far soo good..I do lot of excercise and keep busy!

[waiting88]

Your mistaken about not being able to do a rapid detox off subs, they give you naltrexone on the 4 day which strips all the subs out of your system. It has a stronger binding effect on your receptors than subs, so knocks all the subs off your receptors and blocks them with naltrexone.
But i think your right about ldn hehe, i have taken it again tonight, but will not be doing it again. Looks like i will just have to be patient.
I got a months supply from the detox centre so i just crush them up 50mg and split down to 2mg.
How are you finding your taper, i used to get big headaches when i tapered.

[Daimy]

And about LDN. I heard the more u take it the less it raises Endorphins, for instance u take it for the first time it may raise ur endorphines for about few days, but if u take a second time in few days or weeks then it doesnt do the same job, meaning it doesnt always raise endorphines, I think thats true based on my Research and from people's experiences..Its no point raising endorphins for 1 day or 2 only to be extend the PAWS and LDN to stop-working.

How do u take the LDN? from on-line pharmacies right? because here in the UK they dont give u a LDN, only 50 tablet, so u must do-make it yourself right?