low dose naltrexone for subutex paws

[waiting88]

   ok a little history first, 10 years on herion and 6 years on subutex. Went from 12mg to 4mg to 0mg. Went in a 5 day detox (detox 5, uk). It was a little expensive, but for me it was worth doing because my sub use was starting to effect my work. wow looking back i do not know how i kept my job through a 10 year smack habit, My breakfast used to be a bag and a joint hehe. Any way, the detox itself was quite easy, i did not even vomit or have diarrea. So they must have there meds right now. (When i first went in a few years ago, it was a different story, i ran out of boxer shorts hehe). What they do not tell you at the end of the detox, is that the next 3 months can be hell for long term sub users.  Before i left i had a 3 month Naltrexone implant put in. Would i recommend a implant? well yes and no. No because i felt really depressed for the 3 months i was on it, but a lot of that could of been because of the detox. Naltrexone blocks your own natraul endorphines as well as all opiates. Yes, because it guarantees that you will get 3 months clean under your belt, even when you think you cannot take anymore.
     So its been 4 months now, still not 100% because of paws, if i look back its not half as bad as it was. The deep depression has gone, energy slowly coming back, sleep starting to get better. Not really want to wait another 4 months to get 100% better.
   So thought i would try low dose naltrexone at night 2mg, i tried it for 3 nights, well i was surprised, By day 2 i felt good again, not 100%, but 90%. (At low dose's, it blocks your endorphine receptors for a few hours, so when it wears off your brain is meant to compensate and produce extra endorphines eg 300%.). I had high levels of energy and my motivation had come back. As an experiment i stopped and 2 days later everything went back to normal eg energy and motivation a little low. So i can report it does work for the short term.
    Has anyone else experimented with ldn for paws, i would like to here how you got on long term? I stopped because as we all know, you do not get pleasure for free, there is always the day we have to pay it back 10 fold. I remember thinking subs were wonderfull at first, how wrong was i hehehe.
     So i was wondering if ldn gives you a endorphine hit through out the day, i guess your body would get used to this, so does paws come back after you stop taking it? does it make paws worse? How long does it work for? before our brains get used to the higher endorphines levels?
     Also how long there paws last for? meant to be going on holiday with my girlfriend soon, but not really want to go if i still have paws. Oh one last question, has anyone been drinking when in paws, does it make it worse? thanks
  P.S My friend did a sub detox but did it the taper method, i think this method is a lot better for paws, as it gives your body and brain time to adjust. He reports feeling fine now.  
      

[waiting88]

  The experiment continues hehe, well this is day 4 or 5 without ldn and im still in quite a good mood. The depression is the worse part of paws, which has lifted for the time being. Still have rls for a couple of hours at night, but thats not a big issue. I take ldn at 10pm, i did not notice any changes in my sleep pattern. eg normaly i can not get to sleep untill about 2am because of rls. (only have slight rls at night when i want to sleep now).
   Not sure i agree with you about ldn half life and biulding up in your system, It works by only attaching to your receptors for 3 or 4 hours, (because your only taking a 2% normal dose), blocking endorphines, your body see's a decrease in endorphines so up-regulates. You will not feel this up-regulation untill the naltrexone has left your receptors.
     I know what your saying about possibly putting paws back, thats conerns me. There is also a theory that ldn helps re-confirm pathways in the brain that we have not used in a long time.
     Oh about effecting your liver, really think its not a problem when taking 2% of a normal dose.
       Cheers for your info, i understand what your saying about ldn making paws worse, i was hoping ldn would be a gentle way to ride out paws and help get some time between me and subs.
      So we will see what this weeks bring and if the depression comes back without the ldn.
      
  

[Daimy]

Also do you take your LDN in the evenign or morning? apparently you cannot get a full nights sleep with LDN if taken at night..Also you do know that the more u take LDN the more reliable u have to be on it? and the worse depression gets..You might feel ok now but thats because of the Half-life of LDN, hope you do realize that, it builds up in your system, even if you take LDN every 3 days or 4 days your building it up, so dont make the mistake of thinking its your natural endorphins which have risen, but infact its the LDN, so that proves the theory that the more u take LDN the more u will have to rely on it and more u will need it,  if u stop it will take time to be back where u before LDN, basically making PAWS longer and worse...I know because 3 people said the exact same thing, all sub-users, so be careful.

[Daimy]

Also one more thing I may add importantly..This American person who did LDN for suboxone also said  the half-life of LDN can stay with you for a few days and even weeks, making the mistake of thinking your natural Endorphins rised, but thats not the case, it holds you until the LDN comes out of your system and then it's back to square one again i.e PAWS..So like I said be very careful and try to be strong-minded in going naturally, you dont want to be depedent on anything for the rest of your life, my doc said LDN is really for those folks who need Endorphin rush all their lives, surely u dont want your PAWS to be extending and extending by the LDN..Ok be well and try to ride it out I say!

[Daimy]

The thing with LDN is that it doesnt do much for long-acting-opiate PAWS as compared to short-acting-opiates. Everyone who has come off sub and whome tried LDN all say it postpones PAWS back, for instance it will give u a rise of Endorphins for 2 days then stop working, it will stop working because it will push your PAWS back further, meaning extending them..The more you do LDN the more times u will have to take it as your only pushing PAWS back..The hypnosis of kick-starting Endoprhins proved to be wrong for long-term sub-meth users. The best form of raising endoprhins is to Excercise and ride it out. Also there aren't much stories of LDN for sub users except few in reality (outside of Internet) remember PAWS differ's to each person and sub PAWS are very different to PAWS from heroin and other short-acting-opiates...You just dont want to be relying on LDN all your life, because pshyclogically you will get depedent on that as you will need it to raise your Endorphins, so be careful in that regard..Also I heard it effects the liver more then alchohol believe it or not? my prescribing Doctor said this, so you just might want to think about this carefully a lot more..Anything which helps your mood usually has side-effects and one has to play the piper...Your just dont want to be making your PAWS worst of holding them back is all.

[waiting88]

   I tried ldn at 2mg for 3 days, Increased my energy and mood, you could even say it made me a little high. Stopped and the depression came back on day 2. And it seemed to of made the paws worse for a few days. So i did another 3 day on ldn, by day 2 my mood and energy levels increased again, but not the high like the first time. Stopped for 3 days and im still in a good mood. Maybe on day 1 and 2 rls increased at night. So my plan is to see how long the depression stays away for. Then have another ldn dose.
    My theory being that im just trying to give my endorphines a small boost just enough to take the depression and low energy away. I do not want the 200%-300% increase a daily dose of ldn can give you. scared my opiate starved brain would get used to the high level of endorphines and go back into paws when daily ldn dosing is stopped.
   I have read many stories about ldn for paws, some people seem to do ok others not. So i will be interested how this experiment works.  Be nice to here from anyone doing ldn and  how it effected them.

[waiting88]

Yes i went in at 12mg and 4mg. I think there right about its not worth doing at 0.2mg. Why jump off at 0.2mg? if your not struggling with your taper go to 0.1mg, 0.05mg ect then start skipping days. The lower you can get the less chance of getting paws. I jumped off at 4mg because the subs stopped holding me and i was getting side effects.
As i stated before my mate had a similar history to me,doing opiates. he did a long and slow taper and suffered no paws.