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Bipolar or Depression with anxiety
Several in our extended family have been treated for bipolar. My father was bipolar. I have been treated for anxiety and depression. My son who is 20 is depressed with some anxiety and is taking Zoloft but doesn't seem to be getting any better after several years. He can sleep for 18 hours, get up for a few hours and then back to bed again. He can sleep all day, and sometimes be up all night. We can't seem to get him into a routine. Sometimes he eats properly, if he's up, and sometimes he eats very little. No rhyme or reason to his life. He hasn't completed secondary school yet, but has tried to do some online courses, but always seems to set himself up for failure. This past fall, he signed up for a full course load, yet we encouraged him to do several only to get back into the swing of things. He doesn't seem to be realistic in his choices. Within weeks he was way behind, and eventually was forced to withdraw because he failed to keep up with even one of the courses. My question; "How do we determine if he might be Bipolar rather than just depresssed and anxious?" Thanyou.
Hi, I'm not sure where you got the impression that I am against AP's? I myself have taken seroquel, it didn't suit me and that is the only reason I came off it, I am very sensitive to a lot of these medications. Had I not been sensitive to it I would have stayed on it.
With regard to ILADVOCATE's research you will have to contact him directly. I am "on the fence" regarding that ;-)
My story is similar to monkeyc's in that i am BPII and the progression was relatively slow. However, I can't help but wonder whether I would be in a better place now if I had taken action at the age of 24 instead of waiting till I was 37. I feel I've lost a number of years of my life due to hiding my head in the sand.
With regard to ILADVOCATE's research you will have to contact him directly. I am "on the fence" regarding that ;-)
My story is similar to monkeyc's in that i am BPII and the progression was relatively slow. However, I can't help but wonder whether I would be in a better place now if I had taken action at the age of 24 instead of waiting till I was 37. I feel I've lost a number of years of my life due to hiding my head in the sand.
Its onset more than doing it - the way to look at it is simple and its the way my psychologist looks at it - imagine a bottle - you put some water in and you take some out - but what happens if there is a gush of water and you cannot take it out fast enough - it overflows and goes everywhere.
Think of stress like water and you get the point.
Most people can survive a long time without symptoms being apparent but in most if not all cases when investigated there is an event or more often a series of events that combine to overload your ability to cope - this is what happened to John Nash in that he was in a very intense time of productivity and under a lot of pressure and his wife became pregnant which added pressure and his bottle filled. Your mind loses the ability to cope with the level of input and stress and symptoms out. A lot of bipolar's are diagnosed after major crises or events in their lives and in fact this is what causes misdiagnosis so often as those events cause a crash or episode and it gets picked as ADHD or Depression - in reality most diagnosed bipolars who sit down and think about it can pick the behaviours going way back - paranoid attacks, anxiety, loneliness, mood swings etc - these of course were not seen then because they were not as big - once the stressors have built up - whammo.
This is why things like education, routine, diet and therapy are vital - its why we need routines and plans in our lives - so we can manage stress and control it. Just look at christmas for mentally ill people - beyond the whole fake joy to the world **** lies a massive iceberg of stress for us; the need to be social with others, cheerful, happy, flat out busy periods working, cleaning or shopping, crowds everywhere and so on and on.
Management of stress is key, and I suck at it as much as anyone.
As for avoiding docs being better because of drug side effects. Sorry if it offends Adel but that is cast iron bull puckey - avoiding doctors and not being treated does nothing but increase the risk of something bad happening - side effects for drugs are mostly highly over stated and more especially on the internet where lies and stupidity rain supreme - 99% of people suffer from the most minimal side effects. For example - for every ill informed rant I have read about lithium destroying your thyroid (it cant unless you have an undiagnosed condition already) or killing you (its very hard to get toxic for normal people) there are hundreds upon thousands of people who have taken it for decades.
Not getting treatment is a fools errand.
Eventually you run the risk of a major episode and at least maybe an involuntary admission to hospital (try getting out of that in a hurry) and at worst... Well suicide happens far too often for the mentally ill and trust me as someone who was undiagnosed but sick when he attempted it it is HIGHLY over-rated.
Or you could be like me, just plod along undiagnosed, paranoid as hell, scheming and plotting and destroying relationships at every step and moving from one job to another after screwing it up all the time screaming at the moon. I can look back know and shudder at the messes I made but I cannot fix the damage I did to my career then and the damage I did to a number of relationships including a woman who I loved ery much and who returned it - thats one I can't fix..
I know people who do not have that luxury - theyre in graves and on those graves it should say "Did not think they needed a doctor".
Hell I had a flatmate once, beautiful girl and a wonderful person and a psychiatric nurse, she started losing it and we all begged her to get help but she would not do it - she moved out in the end because I and the other 2 nurses who lived with her would not let up and one morning nearly a year later her new flatmates found her body in the bathroom after a massive overdose - she had been showing symptoms of illness for 2 years brought on by the stress of her job, she worked with psychiatrists every day and yet she still would not get help despite the people she worked with trying to help her.
Some people never listen - that does not mean you stop trying.
Every BP will sooner or later have a trigger point. 15 years or 5 months. And its not always a smooth ride - I am Bipolar II and my illness progression is mild compared to some; I have no psychotic features for example. However that doesnt mean Bob over there is not Bipolar 1 with serious problems. By not going to the doctor bob is playing russian roullette. Now throw in bob's wife and kids and bob's gun (cause he lives in the US where owning a gun is a right remember) and bob's a ticking time bomb just waiting for good old psychotic paranoia with a side serving of delusions to come along.
Think I exaggerate? Do some reading and see the stories.
Not getting treatment risks your life and other peoples lives and its stupid and its silly and its pig headed and doing so because someone on the internet who may or may not have taken a drug and whose case you do not know wrote about worst case side effects is beyond silly into the realms of needing your head checked. And thats where a psychiatrist comes in.
My ADHD was in my childhood and early teens and looking back now I suspect it was BP not ADHD, I would not remember the behaviours if I tried now, aside from concentration issues, problems with anxiety and authority and constant racing mind. Its too long ago.
Think of stress like water and you get the point.
Most people can survive a long time without symptoms being apparent but in most if not all cases when investigated there is an event or more often a series of events that combine to overload your ability to cope - this is what happened to John Nash in that he was in a very intense time of productivity and under a lot of pressure and his wife became pregnant which added pressure and his bottle filled. Your mind loses the ability to cope with the level of input and stress and symptoms out. A lot of bipolar's are diagnosed after major crises or events in their lives and in fact this is what causes misdiagnosis so often as those events cause a crash or episode and it gets picked as ADHD or Depression - in reality most diagnosed bipolars who sit down and think about it can pick the behaviours going way back - paranoid attacks, anxiety, loneliness, mood swings etc - these of course were not seen then because they were not as big - once the stressors have built up - whammo.
This is why things like education, routine, diet and therapy are vital - its why we need routines and plans in our lives - so we can manage stress and control it. Just look at christmas for mentally ill people - beyond the whole fake joy to the world **** lies a massive iceberg of stress for us; the need to be social with others, cheerful, happy, flat out busy periods working, cleaning or shopping, crowds everywhere and so on and on.
Management of stress is key, and I suck at it as much as anyone.
As for avoiding docs being better because of drug side effects. Sorry if it offends Adel but that is cast iron bull puckey - avoiding doctors and not being treated does nothing but increase the risk of something bad happening - side effects for drugs are mostly highly over stated and more especially on the internet where lies and stupidity rain supreme - 99% of people suffer from the most minimal side effects. For example - for every ill informed rant I have read about lithium destroying your thyroid (it cant unless you have an undiagnosed condition already) or killing you (its very hard to get toxic for normal people) there are hundreds upon thousands of people who have taken it for decades.
Not getting treatment is a fools errand.
Eventually you run the risk of a major episode and at least maybe an involuntary admission to hospital (try getting out of that in a hurry) and at worst... Well suicide happens far too often for the mentally ill and trust me as someone who was undiagnosed but sick when he attempted it it is HIGHLY over-rated.
Or you could be like me, just plod along undiagnosed, paranoid as hell, scheming and plotting and destroying relationships at every step and moving from one job to another after screwing it up all the time screaming at the moon. I can look back know and shudder at the messes I made but I cannot fix the damage I did to my career then and the damage I did to a number of relationships including a woman who I loved ery much and who returned it - thats one I can't fix..
I know people who do not have that luxury - theyre in graves and on those graves it should say "Did not think they needed a doctor".
Hell I had a flatmate once, beautiful girl and a wonderful person and a psychiatric nurse, she started losing it and we all begged her to get help but she would not do it - she moved out in the end because I and the other 2 nurses who lived with her would not let up and one morning nearly a year later her new flatmates found her body in the bathroom after a massive overdose - she had been showing symptoms of illness for 2 years brought on by the stress of her job, she worked with psychiatrists every day and yet she still would not get help despite the people she worked with trying to help her.
Some people never listen - that does not mean you stop trying.
Every BP will sooner or later have a trigger point. 15 years or 5 months. And its not always a smooth ride - I am Bipolar II and my illness progression is mild compared to some; I have no psychotic features for example. However that doesnt mean Bob over there is not Bipolar 1 with serious problems. By not going to the doctor bob is playing russian roullette. Now throw in bob's wife and kids and bob's gun (cause he lives in the US where owning a gun is a right remember) and bob's a ticking time bomb just waiting for good old psychotic paranoia with a side serving of delusions to come along.
Think I exaggerate? Do some reading and see the stories.
Not getting treatment risks your life and other peoples lives and its stupid and its silly and its pig headed and doing so because someone on the internet who may or may not have taken a drug and whose case you do not know wrote about worst case side effects is beyond silly into the realms of needing your head checked. And thats where a psychiatrist comes in.
My ADHD was in my childhood and early teens and looking back now I suspect it was BP not ADHD, I would not remember the behaviours if I tried now, aside from concentration issues, problems with anxiety and authority and constant racing mind. Its too long ago.
I agree with you either one is schizo or not. But in all these illnesses one is not alarmed until there is an impairement in our functioning. So he must have been so all along but only at the age of 31 did he seemed to be disabled so he must resort to drugs. Sorry you are right
The point however if one can withstand the disease for sometime and not consult a pdocs i.e. resist the attacks as long as one can instead of hurrying to them, this is better than using the drugs with the side-effects.
Suppose hypothetically a BP doesn't go to see a doctor. What can happen to him. If no serious triggers is inflicted upon him, can he go fluctuarting on and off or will he worsen. In your case you had a long period of 15 years without showing the symptom.
an off-point. Bulldozer of ILADVOCATE mentioned recovery under glycine. I tried to read about in the internet but failed. Can you provide a link. I know you are against AP in general.
Monkeyc: you mentioned you had ADHD can you describe it in one paragraph. Because I have anxiety these days and I am totally restless. I want to walk and walk until I calm down. Is this ADHD?
thanks
ezz
The point however if one can withstand the disease for sometime and not consult a pdocs i.e. resist the attacks as long as one can instead of hurrying to them, this is better than using the drugs with the side-effects.
Suppose hypothetically a BP doesn't go to see a doctor. What can happen to him. If no serious triggers is inflicted upon him, can he go fluctuarting on and off or will he worsen. In your case you had a long period of 15 years without showing the symptom.
an off-point. Bulldozer of ILADVOCATE mentioned recovery under glycine. I tried to read about in the internet but failed. Can you provide a link. I know you are against AP in general.
Monkeyc: you mentioned you had ADHD can you describe it in one paragraph. Because I have anxiety these days and I am totally restless. I want to walk and walk until I calm down. Is this ADHD?
thanks
ezz
Psychic illnesses?
Psychiatric Illnesses can go dormant or lie in remission for a long time but they do not go away.
I think there seems to be so much confusion on the internet about what a 'psychiatric illness' is - some reading of real sources will show that a real mental illness is not one that is cured or goes away - the problem is diagnosis and cause - a hormonal imbalance for example is not a mental illness even if some symptoms may look like them, likewise SLE is not bipolar but some SLE symptoms look like Bipolar and vice versa, a brain tumor can look like a mental illness but its not.
I also think terms like 'get' schizonphrenia are bad - they imply a disease is catching and its not.
You cited John Nash - He did not 'get' schizophrenia at 31 he was diagnosed at 31, his illness was apparent earlier in his life even in his childhood if you read actual biographies of the man - his parents always considered him to be different and he had a tendency for solitary pursuits and disliked other people being around and social occasions and his own brother in interviews noted the 'odd' tag, Nash actually showed serious signs of his illness in college including obsession and driven work and he was diagnosed at 31 in 1959 after his paranoia and schizophrenia came on full force during his wife's pregnancy.
John Nash is a very interesting example to use - he has some unorthodox theories on Bipolar and Schizophrenia he likes to promote and has refused to use drugs all his life resulting in man involuntary hospitalisations - Nash claims his illness is no longer a problem but this ignores the fact he lives and works in a community where everyone is used to him and can accept his behaviour and thus its not an issue - this does not mean he is not schizophrenic it means people around him are used to him.
The reality of course is Nash is brilliant but like many brilliant minds he gets given a lot of leeway in terms of behaviour you and I would be locked up for.
When we talk in mental illness its hard to define it - Schizophrenia is not one disease and many scientists infact believe it might be many things - they do not know what causes the illness but genetics do have a major role to play on all available evidence.
Psychiatric Illnesses can go dormant or lie in remission for a long time but they do not go away.
I think there seems to be so much confusion on the internet about what a 'psychiatric illness' is - some reading of real sources will show that a real mental illness is not one that is cured or goes away - the problem is diagnosis and cause - a hormonal imbalance for example is not a mental illness even if some symptoms may look like them, likewise SLE is not bipolar but some SLE symptoms look like Bipolar and vice versa, a brain tumor can look like a mental illness but its not.
I also think terms like 'get' schizonphrenia are bad - they imply a disease is catching and its not.
You cited John Nash - He did not 'get' schizophrenia at 31 he was diagnosed at 31, his illness was apparent earlier in his life even in his childhood if you read actual biographies of the man - his parents always considered him to be different and he had a tendency for solitary pursuits and disliked other people being around and social occasions and his own brother in interviews noted the 'odd' tag, Nash actually showed serious signs of his illness in college including obsession and driven work and he was diagnosed at 31 in 1959 after his paranoia and schizophrenia came on full force during his wife's pregnancy.
John Nash is a very interesting example to use - he has some unorthodox theories on Bipolar and Schizophrenia he likes to promote and has refused to use drugs all his life resulting in man involuntary hospitalisations - Nash claims his illness is no longer a problem but this ignores the fact he lives and works in a community where everyone is used to him and can accept his behaviour and thus its not an issue - this does not mean he is not schizophrenic it means people around him are used to him.
The reality of course is Nash is brilliant but like many brilliant minds he gets given a lot of leeway in terms of behaviour you and I would be locked up for.
When we talk in mental illness its hard to define it - Schizophrenia is not one disease and many scientists infact believe it might be many things - they do not know what causes the illness but genetics do have a major role to play on all available evidence.
I am not in an authority to judge consdering the number of best experts in the site who already replied. True you should consult a doctor for he is the only judge.
Yet my hunch from your words you said he has been on sertraline (zoloft) for years and still depressed. Usually if he is bipolar or at least cyclothemic then he should have developed mania under the AD, especially that you don't seem to be giving him an antipsychotic. If you read the pamphlet of any AD it says not to be given to BP pts except with an MS. So it seems zoloft is not hurting him but neither helping him much.
I am not sure whether depression is better or not than BP or worse. But i know that all are bad.I myself was an OCD person and was tormented like hell very undecided in all my responses so i asked GOD to get rid of my OCD and get in exchange anything else. So I became BP and my mood is up and down all the time. So seemingly since its depression mainly without reverting to mania then it's depression. I read once that there are 5 main psychic illnesses: schitzophrenia, bipolarity, anxiety (usually common to all) and panic, OCD and finally depression. So you can get depression only and of course anxiety is a common denominator to all of them.
But in the end it's the pdoc who will diagnose it. There are are also omega-3 in high doses 5gms up which helps with the meds and to my knowledge no side effect. Don't try st John-wart they say it can bring mania.
One point though i am sure of is that psychic illnesses can subside. your son is very young and was put on an AD from his early years. So sometimes hormonal changes affect the youth. You will find that he became depressed after his teens only, i.e. not when he was twelve say. It;s the interval 16-21 which is crucial exactly like the period 65-70 in adulthood. They reckon if the person passes over this period then he can stay longer. of course many exeptions exist. i heard one can get schitzophrenic at any age. john nash did at 31.
don't panic it's a long struggle but Inshallah (with the help of GOD in Arabic) you will succed.
One last point though. People with these kind of illnesses don't like to be pushed to do something they hate, this is called stressful situations. so make sure not to force him to chose a certain career.
good luck
ezz
Yet my hunch from your words you said he has been on sertraline (zoloft) for years and still depressed. Usually if he is bipolar or at least cyclothemic then he should have developed mania under the AD, especially that you don't seem to be giving him an antipsychotic. If you read the pamphlet of any AD it says not to be given to BP pts except with an MS. So it seems zoloft is not hurting him but neither helping him much.
I am not sure whether depression is better or not than BP or worse. But i know that all are bad.I myself was an OCD person and was tormented like hell very undecided in all my responses so i asked GOD to get rid of my OCD and get in exchange anything else. So I became BP and my mood is up and down all the time. So seemingly since its depression mainly without reverting to mania then it's depression. I read once that there are 5 main psychic illnesses: schitzophrenia, bipolarity, anxiety (usually common to all) and panic, OCD and finally depression. So you can get depression only and of course anxiety is a common denominator to all of them.
But in the end it's the pdoc who will diagnose it. There are are also omega-3 in high doses 5gms up which helps with the meds and to my knowledge no side effect. Don't try st John-wart they say it can bring mania.
One point though i am sure of is that psychic illnesses can subside. your son is very young and was put on an AD from his early years. So sometimes hormonal changes affect the youth. You will find that he became depressed after his teens only, i.e. not when he was twelve say. It;s the interval 16-21 which is crucial exactly like the period 65-70 in adulthood. They reckon if the person passes over this period then he can stay longer. of course many exeptions exist. i heard one can get schitzophrenic at any age. john nash did at 31.
don't panic it's a long struggle but Inshallah (with the help of GOD in Arabic) you will succed.
One last point though. People with these kind of illnesses don't like to be pushed to do something they hate, this is called stressful situations. so make sure not to force him to chose a certain career.
good luck
ezz
Not knowing where you are is hard..
Agree with bulldozer as always - Doctor is your only option and thats going to mean a psychiatrist as well to get a diagnosis.
Agree with bulldozer as always - Doctor is your only option and thats going to mean a psychiatrist as well to get a diagnosis.
Hi, welcome to the site. You can't really establish whether or not he is bipolar as only a professional psychiatrist can do that.
He definitely needs help from what you have said, excessive sleeping is not healthy for him. A doctor's visit first would be a good idea to rule out other reasons for his fatigue.
I don't know how your healthcare system works, if you need a referral from your Dr to see a psychiatrist then obviously you can request this when he goes along for other checks. If you do not need a referral then ask around to find out the best psychiatrist in your area.
He definitely needs help from what you have said, excessive sleeping is not healthy for him. A doctor's visit first would be a good idea to rule out other reasons for his fatigue.
I don't know how your healthcare system works, if you need a referral from your Dr to see a psychiatrist then obviously you can request this when he goes along for other checks. If you do not need a referral then ask around to find out the best psychiatrist in your area.
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