Herb Database? Dr. Zhang?

[jmjm530]

Someone posted a while back about a list/database of liver safe herbs. I believe it was developed by a hepatologist in California. Also, anyone familiar with Dr. Zhang in NYC and his herbal therapy?

I'm just interested in the information above, not a discussion on herbs, but don't let that stop anyone else :)

Hope this finds everyone well.

-- Jim

[jmjm530]

Thanks for the input. Did both of you consult with Dr. Z on the phone or did you actually visit him? What info did he want for the phone consult, i.e. blood results, etc. Also, if you saw him, did he do acupuncture? I'm thinking of acupuncture whether or not I end up doing the herbs so interested in any input here. Thanks.


-- Jim

[GrandmaA]

My liver enzymes normalized on Dr. Zhang's herbs and I lost all that fatigue. It only took a couple weeks. They are wonderful. They work in 95% of cases.

[GrandmaA]

Sorry I couldn't get back to answer you yesterday. I was blissed out at acupuncture.

Yes, I took Dr. Zhang's herbs for 3 years and I still take some of them while on treatment to lessen sx, but a couple of them we are not supposed to take. My rbc are staying normal because of copmine that I take 2 caps 2 times a day 15 min. before meals. I take herb zac for St. John's wort and Rasovin, Dr. recommended but doesn't carry it (for nerves and stress). I heard Dr. Rhen's herbs are much more expensive. I take herbsom before bed for sleep.

You can also take them after treatment to help normalize all liver functions.

He gives lectures all over the country on his programs. They even have a interferon under the tongue dripping procedure that lowers viral load. I wanted to try it but my doctor said I would also have to take ribavarin and I didn't want to do that. Dr. Zhang said it wouldn't be necessary.

[copyman]

i assumed it was hep c he was talking about since that was all we discussed. i think they take hep b much more seriously then c in asia.

[couldn't think of a nickname]

The scenario is correct, God'S remedy spiked them, Dr. Zhang's did not lower them, they rose again after discontinuation of Zhang's, before dropping back some on their own.
No, that wasn't me whose enzymes were near 1000.
And, yes, the herbs were from Hepapro. I was taking group 1 and then group 2, but I don't remember the names offhand.

[jmjm530]

CTON,

Still a little unclear so want to make sure I have this correct.

First, you took "God's Remedy" brand herbs and your enzymes (ALT I assume) increased from 100 to 240. Then you stopped taking God's Remedy and took Dr. Z's herbs. You took Dr. Z's herbs for another year during which time your enzymes remained around 240. After you stopped taking Dr. Z's herbs your enzymes increased from around 240 to 350. Recently, without herbs, your enzymes went back to around 200...?

Also...

(1) I thought you posted way back that your enzymes were closer to 1000 on the herbs or maybe that was someone else, or maybe that was just me :)

(2) Were the herbs that Dr. Z gave you "Heapro" brand? Their website is http://www.hepapro.com/  I referenced the ingredients in my post  "C6" above. Specifically, either "Group I" or "Group II" formulations if you scroll down that page.

Thanks for any help on this.

----------------
Gooffy, yes, that was the list I had in mind. Thanks for re-posting.

[GoofyDad]

http://www.cpmc.org/advanced/liver/patients/topics/herbs.html

[couldn't think of a nickname]

I haven't read the rest of the thread yet, just up to your question.
It was God's Remedy that spiked them from about 100 to 240, where they remained while I took 2 protocols of his herbs for about a year. After stopping, they went up to about 350, but recently backed off to 200.
Ironically, I actually felt much improved on God's Remedy, for the first couple of months, and was surprised my enzymes went up.
The Chinese herbs got expensive, and without helping me, I couldn't justify using them anymore.

[Forseegood]

Jim, I gotta go vote now, cause I hear the lines aren't getting any shorter, so I better go now...I'll address this later okay? or maybe I could email you on Janis?, that way I can just use your Janis email address and no personal codes are breached...

[CrazyTrain]

jmjm - while you are checking out the herbal info (I take Milk Thistle, Dandelion Root, Lipoic Acid and Selenium) take the time to check out NatCell - Frozen, Live Liver Protein Cells. I have no vested interest, nor am I trying to push it as greatest thing since sliced bread. But I would like to hear what, if anything, other folks think about this product, whether anyone else has tried it and if so their experience with it.

How's that for a run-on sentence LOL

Thanks jmjm,

Crazy

[NYgirl]

Grandma A I think mentionned him?

[copyman]

jim, here is the web address for dr. chen. he will respond to your emails and will answer your questions over the phone.

http://www.go2acupuncture.com/home.html

[jmjm530]

West,

Glad it's going well. One thing you don't have to worry about is that your doctor and staff don't know their stuff and protocols.

I assume Dr. D is doing CBC's weekly, or every other week at this juncture. Now, or within the next couple of weeks is when anemia starts to hit many of us. And it's just not the absolute hgb number but the rate of fall. For example, a drop of 2-3 points (from pre-tx) over a 2-3 week period can be enough to put some of us older men (like me) in the ER :)

So...if he starts feeling particularly beat -- like out of breath beat, like can't quite make it across the street very well beat -- bring it to their attention right away regardless of your appointment schedule. From what I've read, Dr D uses helper drugs like Procrit liberally, but like in all busy offices, sometimes you still have to bring things to their attention.

Crazy,

I do appreciate the run-on sentence and have been known to run one on myself at times which brings me to your herbal suggestion but all I can say is that I'm pretty new with the herbal stuff and just shopping around for some info and doctors who might be able to help some of my post-tx symptons without hurting me so you be well and I will try and check out what you recommend.

-- Jim

[jmjm530]

Thanks for the link. He certainly seems quite qualified.

Here is Dr. Zhang's site, not as polished as Chen's, but he seems to have a very good reputation in regard to Hep C and has lectured to groups of hepatologists at several hospitals.
http://www.dr-zhang.com/

Curious, where did you come up with Chen's name?

The only thing that bothers me is his viral load guarantee. I don't know enough about any of this to talk intelligently, but I can understand maybe enzymes being reduced by herbs but not viral loads, but who knows. As you've probably read, a low pre-tx viral load is a positive predictor of SVR, so anything that might bring them down prior to treating would be good.

Not sure if you're familiar with my pre-tx journey. Like yourself, my plan was to see a doctor of TCM for six months to a year before treatment with the intent of reducing inflammation and fibrosis and the hope that I could delay treatment, hopefully for a long, long, long time.

I found a TCM guy who also mixed his own herbs which were self administered in the form of herbal tea twice a day. After 1-2 weeks my enzyme skyrocketed from mildly elevated to 800 or so and I stopped the herbs and actually had to delay tx a year. In all fairness, it could also have been the hep b vaccine I took the same week, or perhaps a combination CAUTION: DO NOT TAKE YOUR HEP B VACCINE AND START TAKING CHINESE HERBS THE SAME WEEK. LOL.

In any event, if you do decide to take herbs, get a liver panel done just before you start the herbs, and if you want to be neurotic like me, then get one weekly for the first month and then monthly.

Does Dr. Chen supply you with the names of the herbs? I think this would be important. In my case, I knew nothing about nothing, and just took this fellow on faith and the recommendation of a friend.

Hardly knew the difference between ALT and a BLT at that point :)

Anyway, good luck and let me know if anything new on the herb or Dr. Chen front. I assume he also does acupuncture? Curious how much these guys charge for a session.

-- Jim

[copyman]

i came up with dr chens name after hours of research and talking to several TCM docs on the phone and via email. his gurantee was not like a snake oil salesman gurantee. during our conversation he said that he has always brought down any hep patients VL. what made sense to me was how he explained in china they have a big problem with hep and most of the people use the herbs and live into their 80's and 90's. they do not look at this as a serious illness in china and they control it with herbs and live out their normal lives. if i remember right he said the first visit(around 2 hr consultation/exam) was $30 and the herbs $50 per week. i figured for that price what do i have to lose to give it a try for a few months. i'm in southern NJ so it would be a 2-3 hr trip for me which is no big deal cuz i go to my hep doc in north jersey which is a 2 hr drive anyway. i learned alot about TCM in a book "the hepatitis C help book" by misha ruth cohen. many receipes for herbs in this book and details about the good ones and bad ones! hope this helps you.

[jmjm530]

Thanks everyone for the response.

I believe the formulation Zhang uses -- give or take -- appears to be as follows (from the Hepapro) website.

As someone a bit cautious, does anything jump out one way or another -- any red flags, etc in terms of liver toxicity?

Also, Grandma, did you take Zhang's formulation and what is your take?
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As most of you know, I'm SVR with normal enzymes so basically looking for help dealing with some post treatment issues such as skin and digestion. I thought of Zhang since he specilizes in liver issues and therefore might know which herbs are good and bad.

There is also something mentioned in Eastern literature called "Post Hepatitis Syndrome" (In Western terms it's called Double-Dose Syndrome :) ) that the herbs may be helpful for. Based on past experience, if I do go ahead, I plan on doing a liver panel the day before and weekly at least for the first month. Then monthly thereafter while on herbs to track enzymes.

Here's the list...A bit pricey at over $150 a month but gladly pay if it helps.
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Safflower flower, peach kernel, ****-quai root, cnidium root, raw rehmannia root, Paeonia lactiflora PALL root, achyranthes root, Chinese thoroughwax root, Chinese licorice root and balloon-flower root.

schisandra fruit, capillary artemesia entire plant, alisma root, polyporus entire plant, ginger root, cinnamon twig, bitter orange rind, Chinese licorice root and atractylodes root.

Ligustrum fruits and Paeonia lactiflora PALL. root.

Silymarin (active ingredient of
milk thistle) .................................70 mg
San-qi ginseng root ..................50 mg
Artemisiae capillaris Thunb. ..230 mg


###

[jmjm530]

I recall one of your posts while I was treating that you liver enzymes spiked after herbal therapy? If so, what was baseline and how high did they spike? Was it Zhang's formulation you took or someone else's. As you may kmow, I had a spike in enzymes a couple of years before I treated probably due to Chinese herbs. I am under the assumption that Zhang's formulations are at least safe, but all information is welcome.

-- Jim

[Forseegood]

just like conventional treatment, and because all our bodies are different, I think some people benefit and get their enzymes down, way down in some cases (and they are consistently down, so it can't be lobbed off as mere fluctuation) and some people don't benefit...I took his formulation but it was too strong for my system, so I'm on another formulation and supplementation program...though I know a few people who benefitted from Zhang's herbs...just my opinion...hey, and if you have the dough and want to try them with careful monitoring, go for it...he does give phone consultations...

[jmjm530]

1)Could you expand on what you mean that his formulation was too strong for your system.

2) Did you get the herbs from Zhang or try and approximate his formulation from other sources?

3) Did you monitor your liver enzymes? If so, how did they change with the herbs?

4) How long did you use them for?
-----------------------------------

As I mentioned, I have no detectible virus and my enzymes are way down, so my motivation is alittle different from most of his patients. At this point, I'd really like to see if herbal treatment can take my health to the next level, but of course do not want to risk the progress I've already made.

-- Jim

[West Village gal]

Dr. D. is terrific and his support staff is even better.  We are very happy.  But this is only week 3, so there is a way to go.  The sides the first week were the pits -- fever, shakes, dizziness, the whole 9 yards.  It hit my partner like a steam train about 4 hours after the shot.  The worst lasted for a few hours but the exhaustion lasted all weekend.  Week 2 was not as dramatic but the fatigue fills every day.  Thanks for your good wishes.

[jmjm530]

Thanks. If you feel comfortable sharing the contact info of TCM doctors who recommended Dr. C. that would be great. Did cross check the academic institutions listed on his web site with the institutions themselves and came up blank. Maybe the web site is dated or some other explanation.  I'm kind of neurotic about checking, re-checking and cross checking sources, which can be especially important (and frustrating) when your dealing outside of the traditional western medical landscape. Get burned once, shame on him. Get burned twice, shame on me :) I will look into the Misha Cohen book as well as the book by Dr. Z. who I mentioned earlier. Funny, I feel like I've gone in a big circle. Four years ago doing the same thing except the difference now is that I'm clear of the virus (that's the good news) but have more symptons than ever because of the treatment (not so good news) LOL. Maybe they know something in China we don't :)

Keep me abreast of any developments with Dr. C, etc.

-- Jim

[copyman]

just my opinion or perhaps a gut feeling but i would think you are the perfect candidate for either accupuncture/pressure and/or TCM. i think you have had way to many drugs go through your body and it makes sense that it is time to try a different approach with natural remedies.

[jmjm530]

Copy: i think you have had way to many drugs go through your body and it makes sense that it is time to try a different approach... \
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YUP :)

[jboyhk]

As a long time resident of Asia (in Hong Kong) I can tell you for a fact that liver cancer and cirrhosis is one of the major causes of deaths in China.

So I don't see how he can say people don't see it as a problem in China.