Aa
LDN
Is anyone familiar with treatment using LDN? Is this stuff for real?
I have not had a recent biopsy, so my belief that the fibrosis is reversed is empirical based on labs and how I feel. My hormone levels are good - another sign of a healthy liver, and I exercise pretty vigorously. That takes energy that only a healthy liver can give.
But I also work closely with a deep tissue massage therapist - a myotherapist, specifically, that pumps my liver out (of bile) every week. He has felt the tissue constantly for the last five years and we both feel that the texture of the tissue is much better. We look at it in terms of turgidity, pliability, energy, and reactiveness of the organ as a whole to physical stimulation.
I would not do a biopsy because they are dangerous and they do not tell you very much. A biopsy is basically a core sample about a millimeter square in area of your liver tissue. But your liver is huge and has multiple separate lobes. Unless fibrosis occurs in a completely homogenized way throughout the whole organ (highly doubtful), then the biopsy is a very random peek at the problem.
Also my first one almost killed me. It was unauthorized and administered by the physician doing my emergency gallbladderectomy. In all I had to be given five units of blood. Those results spurred me to do interferon. I was fat, out of shape with hep c, a funky liver and a gangrenous gall bladder. I had no energy to do the things that I knew would work better. It was a discipline problem, as I mentioned earlier.
Anyway, the IV's can be done with naturopaths or holistic MDs. You have to get the pricing from them and compare. I would suggest phosphatidylcholine and lipoic acid to start with. Other good ones are glutathione, mega dose vitamin C, and all the B's. Insurance will cover none of it.
I think the best bang for the buck is LDN however. Of all the things I've done, and I have just scratched the surface here, nothing has helped like LDN. Besides the drop in viral load, it relieved systemic inflammation (liver enzymes normalized), but the best thing was that it relieved me psychologically. No anger, and an easy calmness settled in. I didn't know how edgy hep c had made me until it was gone.
Also the endorphins are great, in both workouts and massage. I mean, like really wonderful, in a chi-bomb sort of way.
The biggest thing for histology is phosphatidylcholine. It is fibrinolytic and it is the main consituent of cell membranes, of which there must be a trillions miles of in your liver. It has been shown to be effective in even the worst cases of fibrosis, with the benefits continuing on long past the studies ends. So it eats up the scar tissue and rebuilds healthy cell walls. Lipoc acid protects the healthy cells.
I am glad that you have improved your situation. Hep c is just a race through time with the condition. You can go out fast with bad quality of life or you can go out slow with good to great quality of life. I feel that the better care you take of yourself, then the less impact hep c will have. It is nice that there a great tools like LDN and orthomolecular nutrition, but it really is about empowering your bodies native healing processes to do their job.
Another point is who is to say that exercise and diet cannot be hugely effective in maintaining and/or restoring liver health? That has been a big part of my program, and I believe that the benefits of diet and exercise are vastly underrated. I exercise my core, which means the trunk of my body. I do twists, medicine ball throws, body bridges - all exercises that clean the tissues and fascia around the liver, as well as providing organ massage with every repetition. This is also key to eliminating steatosis (intracellular fat) from the liver - fatty liver correlates with body mass index, which means the fatter you are, the more fat in your liver. This is not true for geno 3 which is a variant that makes the liver cells form their own fats - the virus uses the fats for the envelope of the envelope viruses. But inflammation is a fatty metabolism pathway called the arichidonic acid cycle, and the fats in fatty liver syndrome feed right into inflammation.
Anyway, I ramble. It's always nice to meet someone who has taken responsibility for his program. Nice to talk with you!
Mike H
But I also work closely with a deep tissue massage therapist - a myotherapist, specifically, that pumps my liver out (of bile) every week. He has felt the tissue constantly for the last five years and we both feel that the texture of the tissue is much better. We look at it in terms of turgidity, pliability, energy, and reactiveness of the organ as a whole to physical stimulation.
I would not do a biopsy because they are dangerous and they do not tell you very much. A biopsy is basically a core sample about a millimeter square in area of your liver tissue. But your liver is huge and has multiple separate lobes. Unless fibrosis occurs in a completely homogenized way throughout the whole organ (highly doubtful), then the biopsy is a very random peek at the problem.
Also my first one almost killed me. It was unauthorized and administered by the physician doing my emergency gallbladderectomy. In all I had to be given five units of blood. Those results spurred me to do interferon. I was fat, out of shape with hep c, a funky liver and a gangrenous gall bladder. I had no energy to do the things that I knew would work better. It was a discipline problem, as I mentioned earlier.
Anyway, the IV's can be done with naturopaths or holistic MDs. You have to get the pricing from them and compare. I would suggest phosphatidylcholine and lipoic acid to start with. Other good ones are glutathione, mega dose vitamin C, and all the B's. Insurance will cover none of it.
I think the best bang for the buck is LDN however. Of all the things I've done, and I have just scratched the surface here, nothing has helped like LDN. Besides the drop in viral load, it relieved systemic inflammation (liver enzymes normalized), but the best thing was that it relieved me psychologically. No anger, and an easy calmness settled in. I didn't know how edgy hep c had made me until it was gone.
Also the endorphins are great, in both workouts and massage. I mean, like really wonderful, in a chi-bomb sort of way.
The biggest thing for histology is phosphatidylcholine. It is fibrinolytic and it is the main consituent of cell membranes, of which there must be a trillions miles of in your liver. It has been shown to be effective in even the worst cases of fibrosis, with the benefits continuing on long past the studies ends. So it eats up the scar tissue and rebuilds healthy cell walls. Lipoc acid protects the healthy cells.
I am glad that you have improved your situation. Hep c is just a race through time with the condition. You can go out fast with bad quality of life or you can go out slow with good to great quality of life. I feel that the better care you take of yourself, then the less impact hep c will have. It is nice that there a great tools like LDN and orthomolecular nutrition, but it really is about empowering your bodies native healing processes to do their job.
Another point is who is to say that exercise and diet cannot be hugely effective in maintaining and/or restoring liver health? That has been a big part of my program, and I believe that the benefits of diet and exercise are vastly underrated. I exercise my core, which means the trunk of my body. I do twists, medicine ball throws, body bridges - all exercises that clean the tissues and fascia around the liver, as well as providing organ massage with every repetition. This is also key to eliminating steatosis (intracellular fat) from the liver - fatty liver correlates with body mass index, which means the fatter you are, the more fat in your liver. This is not true for geno 3 which is a variant that makes the liver cells form their own fats - the virus uses the fats for the envelope of the envelope viruses. But inflammation is a fatty metabolism pathway called the arichidonic acid cycle, and the fats in fatty liver syndrome feed right into inflammation.
Anyway, I ramble. It's always nice to meet someone who has taken responsibility for his program. Nice to talk with you!
Mike H
this is starting to sound like a "snake oil" ad for LDN...........we have a member here who is a hepatitis researcher and he has suggested many supplements but never once has he mentioned this. Sorry but I think it is bogus. Glad if it is working for you
Well, LDN has been through phase 1 FDA clinical trials for acute crohn's and phase 2 has been started. In the trials, LDN brought two thirds of the acute crohn's patients to complete remission in 3 weeks. It failed to help only 12% of the patients. Phase 1 trials on multiple sclerosis have also been completed and have shown good results. LDN has been shown to increase circulating endorphin levels, and the endorphin-immune system link has been well-established.
There is also plenty of science behind all the IV nutrients, including phosphatidylcholine. Maybe you should look at the science and decide if it is snake oil for yourself.
In my opinion, the snake oil salesmen are the pharmaceuticals companies, who push nasty stuff like interferon/ribavarin. Just because a therapy doesn't debilitate you doesn't mean that it is not effective, or not science-based.
One more word on LDN. Because the patent ran out and the drug is in the public domain, you won't see a whole lot of research on it. The good thing is that it costs only $30 a month, without insurance. The bad thing is that it will never be promoted or properly funded for study by the drug companies. However, if the drug companies had realized how to use it correctly before the patent ran out it would be on TV ads 24/7.
BTW, probably the best researcher on this site is George D.
Good luck!
Mike H
There is also plenty of science behind all the IV nutrients, including phosphatidylcholine. Maybe you should look at the science and decide if it is snake oil for yourself.
In my opinion, the snake oil salesmen are the pharmaceuticals companies, who push nasty stuff like interferon/ribavarin. Just because a therapy doesn't debilitate you doesn't mean that it is not effective, or not science-based.
One more word on LDN. Because the patent ran out and the drug is in the public domain, you won't see a whole lot of research on it. The good thing is that it costs only $30 a month, without insurance. The bad thing is that it will never be promoted or properly funded for study by the drug companies. However, if the drug companies had realized how to use it correctly before the patent ran out it would be on TV ads 24/7.
BTW, probably the best researcher on this site is George D.
Good luck!
Mike H
In case you missed it this is an HCV forum. Lets stay with the forum topic. Come back with phase 1 study data on HCV then there will be some credibility. Until then stop posting this nonsense here. You may want to talk to Lloyd Wright, he also pushes snake oil "cure". He could show you the technique on how to prey upon the weak that have Hepatitis / liver disease. He is a master on emptying the pockets of many HCV victims with the promise of a cure!
You may be able to convince newbies here but most of the members here are well versed in Hepatitis C and know better then to buy into this. You would be better off visiting other forums that may not have as much knowledge as the members here, and this would give you a better chance of selling the "snake oil"
You may be able to convince newbies here but most of the members here are well versed in Hepatitis C and know better then to buy into this. You would be better off visiting other forums that may not have as much knowledge as the members here, and this would give you a better chance of selling the "snake oil"
So copyman,
I am a non-responder to treatment. The reasons for dropping out at 12 weeks were severe allergic reactions, so even if I was so inclined, I couldn't do more conventional treatment. I also have specific memories of the quite literal shrug of the shoulders from my GE when I stopped the drug. The only course of action, of course is just to grit it out until I qualify for the transplant list. No hope; they are so quick with the hook!
What do you suggest I do, and people like me?
Also, who is going to profit from LDN? That is prima facie ridiculous.
For your information I have two 4-year Bachelors of Science degrees; one in Zoology and the other in Clinical Laboratory Sciences. That means that I am a Medical Technologist, so not only am I trained in clinical diagnostics, I am certified to perform the lab tests that you read on your labs (Medical Technologist, ASCP, NAACLES certified). I am also trained to understand the principles of diagnostic tests, the medical pathologies involved, how to research and to understand what I read. So your snake oil comments are pretty laughable.
LDN is a prescription drug. My doctor prescribed it for me. He also does the orthomolecular nutrition. He agrees with me on all aspects of my program and includes me on all decisions. Just because your doctor is conventional does not make him more scientific than mine. Plus, I would bet that he cannot compare to mine in terms of helping people, especially those who have run out of conventional options.
I've experienced the tender mercies of interferon treatment. I understand everything about it. I think I can do a better job with my new doctor and on my own. Everything in my labs and everything in my life would indicate that is so. And that is based on scientific criteria, not snake oil criteria.
Sorry to interrupt the theme here. I did not know that some hep c topics are taboo here. If you stop insulting me I will go away, I promise!.
Carry on. And good luck to you!
Mike
I am a non-responder to treatment. The reasons for dropping out at 12 weeks were severe allergic reactions, so even if I was so inclined, I couldn't do more conventional treatment. I also have specific memories of the quite literal shrug of the shoulders from my GE when I stopped the drug. The only course of action, of course is just to grit it out until I qualify for the transplant list. No hope; they are so quick with the hook!
What do you suggest I do, and people like me?
Also, who is going to profit from LDN? That is prima facie ridiculous.
For your information I have two 4-year Bachelors of Science degrees; one in Zoology and the other in Clinical Laboratory Sciences. That means that I am a Medical Technologist, so not only am I trained in clinical diagnostics, I am certified to perform the lab tests that you read on your labs (Medical Technologist, ASCP, NAACLES certified). I am also trained to understand the principles of diagnostic tests, the medical pathologies involved, how to research and to understand what I read. So your snake oil comments are pretty laughable.
LDN is a prescription drug. My doctor prescribed it for me. He also does the orthomolecular nutrition. He agrees with me on all aspects of my program and includes me on all decisions. Just because your doctor is conventional does not make him more scientific than mine. Plus, I would bet that he cannot compare to mine in terms of helping people, especially those who have run out of conventional options.
I've experienced the tender mercies of interferon treatment. I understand everything about it. I think I can do a better job with my new doctor and on my own. Everything in my labs and everything in my life would indicate that is so. And that is based on scientific criteria, not snake oil criteria.
Sorry to interrupt the theme here. I did not know that some hep c topics are taboo here. If you stop insulting me I will go away, I promise!.
Carry on. And good luck to you!
Mike
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