does marijuana effect TX & liver

[patti1957]

i have recently been diagnosed hep c - stage 4 cirrhosis. i am not a heavy drinker - a few drinks every 2 or 3 weekends or so but i haved stopped the drinking.  i do want to continue to have a somewhat enjoyable life and was wondering if it is ok to occassionally smoke marijuana.  i haven't done so in 20 years or so, but did the other day and felt like i would like to on occassion now that i can no longer drink.  will this damage my liver further and with this have any adverse effect on the tx (pegasys & copegasys) that i will start in the future?  i know if i ask my doc - he will probably tell me NOT TO - but i wanted to ask the forum for input - THANKS for those who answer

[FiftyYearOld]

The problem of medical research on Cannabis is that Cannabis is not a single compound and in addition, you are getting a lot of other negative compounds as a result of the burning process.

Medical marijuana is developed to have more CDB (cannabidiol), a non-psychoactive cannabinoid. CDB appears to be involved in the body's own immuno-regulatory system. There are cannabinoid receptors throughout the body especially in immune response cells.

If you must take it, I would suggest using a high quality vaporiser and don't use street pot if you can avoid it.

There is a great deal to be said for legitimizing research into cannabinoids. CDB has been shown in controlled studies, for example to reduce inflammation, reduce auto-immune disorders (Grave's disease(?) arthritis) and counter act many types of pain. It also shows promise for inhibiting some types of cancer (not all)

I developed Grave's disease immediately following ribavirin & interferon treatment. We don't know if it was caused by the treatment itself or by the H-C virus. I now have joint or tendon inflammation in my shoulders. Pot helps me sleep but it also makes me depressed the next day, irritable, coughing. It seems to temporarily alleviate the headaches but they always seem to return. I don't know if it would help with the joint pain or not. I'm going to find out soon.

Just managing my life now is my main problem. Pot both helps and hinders that. Some days, I just want to forget about the other cranky people in my life who wish I would just get over it and go back to being a normal person. Reality bites.

Then there are the kind individuals who ask: how did you get it anyway? What do you say to them? How do you explain that you look OK on the outside but inside you are a mess, cranky, tired and in pain? When I'm high, nothing bugs me. I'm calm. That helps me to deal with stress and deal with the other people in my life who give me headaches.

My wife hates the marijuana but then she hates me too; no secret about that.

I doubt we will see the research results in our lifetimes. Just the way the cookie crumbles.

Dad

[FiftyYearOld]

It is known that THC is metabolized in the liver. It is also excreted in the urine. Cannabinoids are key components of the body's own immune feedback system, turning off or on chemical receptors throughout the body's immune system.

Until we know more, I wouldn't risk it. Besides, there are so many other toxins in smoke, that it isn't good for you. We are already at risk of liver cancer. Mind you, CDB (cannabidiol) has been shown to decrease certain kinds of cancers such as breast cancer and to suppress certain auto-immune diseases such as arthritis, caused by inflammation.

Check out a separate posting I've recently made seeking further information.

IMHO, medical marijuana would be a good palliative treatment option to relieve suffering, depression and pain. I doubt that it has much value as a treatment, but possibly -might- help with some side effects.

Dad

[kcrandy]

"dont bogart that joint my friends pass it over to me" wow im having flashbacks lol :O)

[Cheesegrater]

I was living with someone HCV positive who smoked pot daily (at night)  to help with sleep and symptoms for three or four years.   He was on treatment 3 times during that time and he was able to withstand treatment AND work full time.

He was diagnosed with HCV back in the late 1980's and I understand he had mild liver inflammation and the beginning of  "peicemeal necrosis"  seen in a biposy in the mid 1990's.

He had second biopsy  back about 2000-2001 showed very little change.
His last biopsy showed scores of "1 and 1" for damage to the liver. He doesn't know what it means but the doctor tells him that it is the lowest level of liver damage on the scale (except of course for zero which means no damage at all).


Go figure.

cheese

[pjhep80]

pot is the only thing that got me thru tx with the body aches and head aches, etc and now that i dont really drink anymore either its a nice diversion at parties haha moderation moderation moderation and ya use a vaporizer at home i have heard good things about them...

i have occasional stomach issues that i am pretty sure were caused by tx and pot is the only thing that helps it, the fools in this country who think that marijuana has no medical value are very very wrong

[orphanedhawk]

from hepcadvocate:

Medical Marijuana Improves HCV Treatment Response

Medical cannabis can help people with hepatitis C stay on treatment and achieve better outcomes, according to a study in the October 2006 European Journal of Gastroenterology and Hepatology. Dr. Diana Sylvestre and colleagues studied 71 patients with HCV at OASIS (a substance use clinic in Oakland) who had been on methadone maintenance for at least three months. About one-third used marijuana while undergoing anti-HCV treatment with conventional interferon plus ribavirin. The researchers found that 54% of cannabis users had undetectable HCV six months after completing treatment, compared with 18% of non-users. While the frequency of side effects was similar in both groups, cannabis users were more likely to stay on therapy.

But this doesn’t mean hep C patients should indulge without restraint: in the OASIS study, those who used the largest amounts of cannabis did not show as much benefit as moderate users, and a previous study found that HCV positive people who smoked marijuana every day were more likely to experience rapid liver fibrosis progression. Nevertheless, in an accompanying editorial, a group of hepatitis C experts recommended that while further research is underway, “we advocate that in the interim existing barriers to cannabis use are removed for drug users undergoing HCV treatment.”

[R Glass]

I couldn’t help but notice that Patti1957 asked about “occasionally” smoking pot and the study posted, continually mentions “Daily” smoking of pot. Personally I look at a lot these studies like the Bible. They are so diverse and contradictory, you can look hard enough and you can back up just about any argument.

[it'sallgood]

dear mary ann,

sorry to hear about your pot bust.  you know for a 69 year old pot smoking chick, your mug photo doesn't look half bad
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/
2004274692_webdawnwells11m.html.

P.S. anytime you feel like ditching gilligan and going down to the lagoon to smoke a J, let me know.
love
eric

[mar148]

In my opinion there is alot anxiety waiting to see what side effects will impact you once on TX.  While everyone has them, some are worse then others.  My experience was that it was bad the first 8 weeks or so then the nausea and other sides became manageable, and frankly were not bad the entire 8 weeks.  Hopefully yours will be manageable.  

I think humans are incredibly resilient and even if you are one of the people that has it worse then me, with advice, support...  you will handle it.  The waiting is the worse.  It is easy to want to go back to your old ways of making it easier for yourself (a drink or smoke).  There are other ways to baby yourself through this if you need it (tylenol, anti depressants. skin lotion, ..)  and I would set yourself up with everything people here and your doctor office recommends.

Everyone will tell you the waiting is worse and not smoking or drinking may be easier then you are worried about.  Good luck

[Bill1954]

LOLOL! Oh my, MerryBe—

I wasn’t insinuating you are ignorant; that is another issue entirely :o). I was simply trying to point out the fallacy in your argument:

“…So unless those saying I'm wrong would like to find some research that contradicts what's just been said and the research in this thread, .......
I'll turn it arund and say the burden of proof that I'm wrong is on you all to prove…”

In order to participate in civil debate, it is necessary to follow certain rules and decorum. Again, shifting the burden of proof just doesn’t hold water. Please refer to the following text for reference:

http://papyr.com/hypertextbooks/comp1/logic.htm

Bill

[working dog]

i know you go nuts over this stuff..i'm not trying to troll around or get you uptight ...so i guess i would like to know..have you smoked any pot??and how much? and have you had a drinking problem in the past? or have you done other drugs?  i did..and i wish all i did was smoke a little pot every once and a  while...i started drinking in the late 80s to take the edge off..a drink before dinner slowly turned into a third of a fifth of vodka a night 14 years later..and i did smoke pot years ago..not a heavy pot smoker but i was around it a lot..i was too into staying in shape to over do drugs.. when my friends came home from vietnam smoking pot really seem to help them cope with things..so from back in thoughs days i became an advocate for it..i believe when you clean your bathroom or kitchen you may be inhaling much worse stuff then a couple hits on pot..or having a capet that emits toxic fumes..or living in some of the cities that are polluted...now wheres your water coming from..taking a shower in polluted water vapor ..how much better does it get....for patti at stage 4 as others have said i would be very carefull of everything..and in no way would i think smoking pot would improve her liver ..i just don't think a little bit would be that bad after seeing other smoke a little durring tx..and when they say that people that smoke pot have a greater chance of liver problems i have to think that in these studies the folks they test are hard core smokers and in their past they have taken more health risks in life...also from what i under stand the vaporizers help a lot and leave a lot of the bad stuff to throw out..also for someone that takes the time to really investagate pot you'll find all different types..thats very important to get the type that your looking for..some will be a very narcodic high..and help you sleep ..eat...and feel better ..while others can be way out there ..too intense...so that has to be looked into and on the net ...maybe google medical marijuana...as i look into tx in the future i'm already looking into the pot thing..i don't want to get super skinny or not be able to sleep if i can help it..and i'm afraid of most of the drugs out there although i guess i'll have to be some of them......billy

[merryBe]

the proof requested is already in this thread

how does me not posting it TWICE prove me ignorant?

if you read this study, in this thread, you will see that apart from the influence of age, NASH or other mitigating conditions the conclusion was fibrosis, OR SCAR tissue to be abslutely clear, formed at a rate seven times faster in the presense of the active agents in cannabis.

after you read the piece maybe you should write the researchers and question their method and report back to us how they culd be so wrong. Or site some article from High Times Magazine, heck if I know.
Me I'll stick with the science,
this and other studies have been posted in here before....I can't help it if people are too busy rolling one to read through a thread without knee jerk reactions.

my choice, and the ne I recommend t those who want to live is not to take things that are knwn to further harm their liver.  You all can make up your own minds. We are all entitled to make that choice and some of do choose ignorance, yu are oh so right there.

here AGAIN in that study
by ClippedWings


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ClippedWings
  



, Mar 08, 2008 07:26PM
To: Patti
You'll find much debate on this issue here and elsewhere.  My doctors have all told me that maijuana is bad for the liver and will increase inflamation.  Not all docs agree. Plenty of folks on this site will tell you that they wouldn't have made it through treatment without a little pot to help ease side effects.  I also have cirrhosis and I would recommend that you read up on cirrhosis- it's a real potential killer. You need to do everything in your power to try to retain all the life you can out of your liver and not engage in any activity that would add stress to your already severely damaged organ.  Whatever you decide, best of luck to you.  Here is a recent study I found:

Marijuana Increases Risk of Hepatitis C-Related Liver Damage
02/03/2008
BETHESDA, Md. – Patients with chronic hepatitis C virus (HCV) infection should not use marijuana (cannabis) daily, according to a study published in Clinical Gastroenterology and Hepatology, the official journal of the American Gastroenterological Association (AGA) Institute. Researchers found that HCV patients who used cannabis daily were at significantly higher risk of moderate to severe liver fibrosis, or tissue scarring. Additionally, patients with moderate to heavy alcohol use combined with regular cannabis use experienced an even greater risk of liver fibrosis. The recommendation to avoid cannabis is especially important in patients who are coinfected with HCV/HIV, since the progression of fibrosis is already greater in these patients.

"Hepatitis C is a major public health concern and the number of patients developing complications of chronic disease is on the rise," according to Norah Terrault, MD, MPH, from the University of California, San Francisco, and lead investigator of the study. "It is essential that we identify risk factors that can be modified to prevent and/or lessen the progression of HCV to fibrosis, cirrhosis and even liver cancer. These complications of chronic HCV infection will significantly contribute to the overall burden of liver disease in the U.S. and will continue to increase in the next decade."

This is the first study that evaluates the relationship between alcohol and cannabis use in patients with HCV and those coinfected with HCV/HIV. It is of great importance to disease management that physicians understand the factors influencing HCV disease severity, especially those that are potentially modifiable. The use and abuse of both alcohol and marijuana together is not an uncommon behavior. Also, individuals who are moderate and heavy users of alcohol may use cannabis as a substitute to reduce their alcohol intake, especially after receiving a diagnosis like HCV, which affects their liver.

Researchers found a significant association between daily versus non-daily cannabis use and moderate to severe fibrosis when reviewing this factor alone. Other factors contributing to increased fibrosis included age at enrollment, lifetime duration of alcohol use, lifetime duration of moderate to heavy alcohol use and necroinflammatory score (stage of fibrosis). In reviewing combined factors, there was a strong (nearly seven-fold higher risk) and independent relationship between daily cannabis use and moderate to severe fibrosis. Gender, race, body mass index, HCV viral load and genotype, HIV coinfection, source of HCV infection, and biopsy length were not significantly associated with moderate to severe fibrosis.

Of the 328 patients screened for the study, 204 patients were included in the analysis. The baseline characteristics of those included in the study were similar to those excluded with the exception of daily cannabis use (13.7 percent of those studied used cannabis daily versus 6.45 percent of those not included). Patients who used cannabis daily had a significantly lower body mass index than non-daily users (25.2 versus 26.4), were more likely to be using medically prescribed cannabis (57.1 percent versus 8.79 percent), and more likely to have HIV coinfection (39.3 percent versus 18.2 percent).

The prevalence of cannabis use amongst adults in the U.S. is estimated to be almost 4 percent. Regular use has increased in certain population subgroups, including those aged 18 to 29.

Source: American Gastroenterological Association

[Bill1954]

Cut and paste dropped the URL to the above post:

http://papyr.com/hypertextbooks/comp1/logic.htm

[Bill1954]

“…So unless those saying I'm wrong would like to find some research that contradicts what's just been said and the research in this thread, .......

I'll turn it arund and say the burden of proof that I'm wrong is on you all to prove...”
~~~~~~~~~~~~

You are attempting to employ at least two forms of fallacious argument:

Argumentum ad ignorantiam
Argumentum ad ignorantiam means "argument from ignorance." If a writer is trying to argue that something must be or might be real simply because there is no evidence to the contrary, then the writer is using argumentum ad ignorantiam. This fallacy asserts the truthfulness of a proposition simply on the basis that there is no evidence to the contrary:

"Of course UFOs are real. Nobody can prove otherwise."

"Ghosts and other psychic phenomena might very well be real. No one yet has shown any proof that there is no after-life."--

And,

Shifting the burden of proof
Writers always have the burden of proof for validating any assertion or proposition they make. Shifting the burden of proof, a special case of argumentum ad ignorantiam, means putting the burden of proof on the anyone who denies or questions the assertion being made. Like argumentum ad ignorantiam, this fallacy rests on the assumption that something is true unless proven otherwise.


http****


Bill

[kcrandy]

here is a fact!!!

Insanity is defined as doing the same things over and over again expecting different results!

i hope you dont use while getting tx.  but it is your decision.

here in kansas city a man who had a liver transplant was just arrested for his fourth dui.

i guess his defense will be is they gave him a liver so i guess that means it is ok to drink i can just get another one!   ( INSANITY ).

[merryBe]

do I eat ice cream?  Does a bear blank in the blank?   yes sugarless thank you, once a month.

the difference is, some fat in the diet will not keep one off a transplant list.

In our town, can not speak for elsewhere, any use of canibanol will keep you off of a transplant list. Most here know that there is difficulty even getting onto treatment drugs if known to be using.....and screens are run on those who are suspected of having issues BECAUSE the tx ITSELF can and DOES sometimes itself damage the liver and can push people into autoimmune hep to go with their hep c.

anyone encouraging others to smoke anything is doing that person no favors.

[merryBe]

brilliant, ok,first JD, I've never been asked before to provide them or I would have.
if you asked after I had left a post, and moved on, my apology.

second, glad folks read my posts, but did you check out Clipped Wings post above mine?  See that was really pretty!!!!!!!
why would I have provided the study when someone above me just had?

so to recap >>>>>In reviewing combined factors, there was a strong (nearly seven-fold higher risk) and independent relationship between daily cannabis use and moderate to severe fibrosis. ........see study above.

and David then added another below, thank you David.
the case now rests.

sorry if this issue bothers some, but search pub med for fibrosis and marijuana HCV and see what you get. If you could prove otherwise....why didn't you?

OK, this is much I will grant you, the amount of excess fibrosis formed by the biochemical changes to the liver in the presence of cannibanol or alcohol are effected by the concentrations, and whether every study checked every concentration I do not know.
For instance, was alcohol damage calibrated and measured for grain alcohol, and did that differ from other sources?
Bottom line is the "averages" quoted in the study are a pretty good indicator that in the presence of the HCV virus anyone consumming those items will be making a signifigant contribution to their own liver failure that those not so inclined are being spared.

So unless those saying I'm wrong would like to find some research that contradicts what's just been said and the research in this thread, .......

I'll turn it arund and say the burden of proof that I'm wrong is on you all to prove.

meanwhile if Patti listens to me, she will suffer no ill effects, but if you are wrong....well serve her up with fava beans!!

so, sorry Patti if I didn't say it sweet enough....but I'm trying to save you from the misery and pain that comes with a failing liver....and it ain't pretty,
so hopefully strong words work best here.
my best to you all....maryB
  

[oyasin]

Doesn't everything we ingest, however ingested, end up filtered by the liver? Am I wrong here?

From the National Institute on Drug Abuse http://www.****.html

here's a snippet....

Effects on the Brain
The short-term effects of marijuana can include problems with memory and learning; distorted perception; difficulty in thinking and problem solving; loss of coordination; and increased heart rate.

Effects on the Heart
One study has indicated that an abuser's risk of heart attack more than quadruples in the first hour after smoking marijuana. The researchers suggest that such an effect might occur from marijuana's effects on blood pressure and heart rate and reduced oxygen-carrying capacity of blood.

Effects on the Lungs
Marijuana abuse also has the potential to promote cancer of the lungs and other parts of the respiratory tract because it contains irritants and carcinogens. In fact, marijuana smoke contains 50 to 70 percent more carcinogenic hydrocarbons than does tobacco smoke. It also induces high levels of an enzyme that converts certain hydrocarbons into their carcinogenic form—levels that may accelerate the changes that ultimately produce malignant cells.

mmmmmm... sign me up!

If you don't like that source, try any of the 300 plus thousand sites you get when googling adverse effects marijuana.

I'm not being judgemental here. I smoked pot off and on for 20+ years and the only thing I got was high. The only thing it "relieved" for me was the sting of reality. It relieved me of a whole lot of memories as well. Oh yeah, and cash. I probably aquired HCV while loaded.

It is a personal choice patti57. Nobody here knows if it is, or is not, going to do you harm.
What many here WILL ask you though is, why take the chance?

Here are a couple snipetts (between the lines) from a site touting the BENEFITS of mj use.
http://www.****.com


Cancer
Smoking marijuana has the potential to cause both bronchitis and cancer of the lungs, throat, and neck, but this is generally no different than inhaling any other burnt carbon-containing matter since they all increase the number of lesions (and therefore possible infections) in your airways.  

Because smoked marijuana contains a variety of combustion compounds, it can damage the lungs and possibly the immune system. Several health committees recommended the development of an inhalation device that delivers pure THC -- the active ingredient in marijuana -- to the lungs. Such a device has not yet been created.

Smoking marijuana is effective in lowering pressure inside the eyeballs of some patients with glaucoma. A word of caution, however: the drug also drops blood pressure, and this could compromise blood flow to the optic nerve and damage vision.
(Before starting tx, I had to get the OK from an Opthamologist, showing that my retinas were strong enough for interferon.)

You can find any answer you want on this subject, and in the end you'll do as you wish.
I wish you the very best of health.
David

[nygirl7]

Heck 10x 7x 3.454.6 x         it is obvious that anyone with STAGE 4 should just be as absolutely good to their liver as they can.  It's like going on a diet and saying well I can't have the chocolate cake but that chocolate donut looks good I'll have a few of them.

If you were stage 1 or 2 I'd say don't sweat an occassional smoke but at stage 4? You gotta be crazy to think about it.

Sorry, I know that's not the answer you are hoping for but treatment is long and hard and to do it for nothing? Shoot - go for the SVR and forget everything else.

[jdwithhcv]

MerryB is once again trotting out her tired, old "statistics" on this issue.  She has been asked numerous times to provide their source, but she never backs them up.  You may be sure that these alleged statistics are merely her opinion.

Doctors (who have actually been to medical school) do not take this position vis a vis marijuana.  I have found it very helpful during tx (used as needed for sx) and previously during cancer chemo.  If it gets you through the treatment and you cannot tolerate it otherwise, its a real godsend.

Good luck.

jd

[oyasin]

" i know if i ask my doc - he will probably tell me NOT TO "
patty1957

" I'm the one that's gotta die, when it's time for me to die, so let me live my life the way I want to"
Jimi Hendrix

Member Comments are provided by individuals and reflect their personal opinions only.
MH, (little grey box, upper left)

[working dog]

this sounds like trolling to me...patti may not know you and think your really saying something...do you eat ice cream? thats probably worse for you then smoking a little pot..or i'm sure if you live in a city or near a major highway you inhale more stuff then smoking a little pot..too much smoking could be trouble though....for one thing just bad for your lungs..mary you must have liked the reefer madness movie..please let us know where your info is coming from...billy

[Proactive]

I hope you aren't extrapolating these statistics (alcohol 10X's?) from the study posted above..The study appears to be of the apples to oranges type, with a number of variables that could effect the conclusions drawn(pot 7X's). One almost would have to have a baseline fibrosis score prior to the daily pot smoking to compare to post smoking fibrosis scores...apples to apples.
enough, we've been through this a hundred times before, and if anyone is interested they can use the medhelp search feature..

[Proactive]

"so for starters, if you quit something that causes 10 times more fibrosis, why would you want to then start including something that causes SEVEN times more fibrosis?? "
Perhaps your statement should be prefaced with, this is your opinion only. And you've been asked in the past to supply any supporting evidence or study data of this statement, and have so far failed to do so (although there has been a study suggesting a relationship between pot and fibrosis-you are apparently the only one who quotes statistics) ..so basically, IMO your statement carrys no weight. But the invitation is still open...pro