is this believable?

[youngladywfear]

http://www.herbalprovider.com/hepatitis.html?src=ggl&w=hepatitis&gclid=CLDerea-oqACFQk65QodeC46aw

[merryBe]

desrt
there are plenty of studies that support a dim view of high viral loads.

You are referring of course to there being no direct ratio with the hcv covert between vl and progression vs. between inflammation and progression but in my opinion this is a myopic analysis because it fails to factor in the cascading effects of the retroviruses in general.

In co-infected people the stats are staggering, there are over 20 biomarkers all indicating that the presense of HCV accerated the progression from HIV to AIDS at an alarmingly faster rate, ergo the virus effects how all else works, or doesn't work to be more presise.

in HCV alone, higher VL has been shown to decommission the endocrine system much faster which in turn produces the inflammation famous for our dimise... (dozens of studys showing marked declines and metabolic syndromes in most hcv patients) and as a result this lead to less tissue repair, less natural interferon, more hydrophobic cell pairs, and so on, and so on. (fully half of hcv people have thyroid issue and pituitary issues, both of which lead to more cell death).
So whether you look at it from the viewpoint of one statistic which fails to take into account the downstream effects is a matter of approach I suppose.
to me , one must look at liver cytosolic 1 antigen-antibody systems in hcv and  reflect that perhaps there's more than meets the eye with all this, but some may differ.  
If you think about it, every virus, from the common cold to polio, from the flu to menengitis are most deadly in their initial bloom of high viral load, this is when the damage is most severe and the patient is sickest.
As you may know both thyroid and pit. disease cause heart anomalies.
Why we assume that higher VL is not taking a similar toll may be because if a persons heart stops due to lack of repair from endo dysfunction we call it a heart attack, not a direct effect of the viral impact on the whole system. But should we?
  
Same with pancreatic issues....we look at the person as having died of diebetic complications, without regard to the fact that the hcv biomarkers show that the constant attack is what brings on the diebetes, the heightened INF load cancels out insulin, which leads to overproduction and eventually IR, type 2 and then type 1...
so which came first the chicken or the egg, you decide..

I've discussed this stuff before in here but it gets very little response from folks. Nevertheless your risk of several diseases shoots up while you carry HCV, and having a high VL is like being in the acute initial stage of that all the time.
just google hcv and thyroid, or any other gland and see what I reference.

take into account also the marked difference in life span between those with HIV being treated for viral load suppression and those left untreated. Treatment suppressed virus which in turn suppresses the biomarkers which turn our bodies on themselves.
To suggest that hcv has no similar components seems premature. The research has not been there to definitely prove my hypothesis but nevertheless if you hunt and peck around you will find that those things I mention have been studied and verified.
we currently spend 3000 dollars on aides research for every 20 we spend on hcv...so I'm not surprised that all the tie ins have not been confirmed yet but they will be, in time.

trish,
I'm implying that it is insulting to dismiss out of hand that which has been shown to have merit just because it's a natural. I'm implying that calling people duped and deceived because they have concluded based on their research differently does not make them the "duped educated", itself an oxymoron. I'm implying that to call others fools is itself a folly, especially when the verdict is far from certain as in this case.
50 years ago the US agricultural department did studies to discover why certain sicknesses were showing up in our livestock...the result after studying thousands of animals for dozens of years is how we now have come to understand the daily minimum requirements exist for all species without which health cannot be maintained. Because of these studies our herds and flocks are now the healthiest, most tumor free animals in the world.
I read all those studyies as a teen, and have been reading them ever since.
There are components that can benefit your health and slow disease progressions.
You can choose to believe that or not, as can I. We are both free to choose.
However, what seemed wrong in my brain was for folks to assume that anyone who subscribes to any non-pharmaceutical product to have been duped and deceived.
That is what I responded to. Sometimes those claiming to have superior knowledge do, and sometimes they don't....they just have prejudices or opinions not based on any scientific proofs....but personally I think we should be careful not to dismiss as fools those with whom we have disagreement.
You mentioned crossing over into cirrohsis...may I ask, do you drink? Because if you don't then you do that to slow your disease progression...is not this the same basic stategy?  You subtract or add something, in the hope of not dying as soon...yet if others do similarly it's not OK...not if it goes beyond the narrow parameters as defined by oneself or one's doctor?
I come at this from a unique perspective, I worked for both medical doctors and alternative doctors for many years. What I learned is that each group has their own set of opinions and prejudices. Often times MD's rejected out of hand any and all supplemention in spite of mountains of evidence to the contrary, and likewise naturopaths rejected medical interventions like they were the plaugue.

from my perspective both these attitudes are myopic and borne of fear of the unknown etc. Unfortunately they pass on these views to their patients who often bear the brunt as a result. Let us take the best of both world and we may find ourselves able to reap unforeseen benefits.  I don't just believe there are substances in nature that cure and heal us. Think of digitalis, aspirin, or penicillin to name but a few.

mimsy indeed.....I shall not recant the world is round

[Willy50]

My notes from a recent Vertex presentation tell me that there are about 350 thousand treatment failure patients in the United States.  I believe this is a fact.

Here comes another; they also mentioned that the chances of success for retreating is about 5-15%.

Some people....like Mike cannot re-treat.  I know a few people like him; well like him in the fact that they cannot TX.  One cannot since they suffer from extreme depression, another that cannot tolerate IFN, yet another who gets anemic from Riba, several with immune issues who cannot get anywhere near IFN.

What do you want these people to do; nothing?

Vertex also had a chilling table about mortality that follows failing TX.  

I feel that this board...... no wait, rather some members are often very intolerant of anything that smacks of alternatives.  Please keep in mind...... that is all some people have left to play with.  I'd be willing to bet that were you to find yourself (or a loved one) in a similar situation you would be checking the stuff out yourself and would be grateful for any insight as for what to do.

People can treat in a few years with the new forms of TX, but first they have to stay alive.  Try to grant them some freedom to choose, freedom to converse, freedom to use the Forum.  
Hey; It's America.  ; )  
If they choose incorrectly, they also have that freedom as well.

I can't see anything harmful about lowering ones viral load or LFT's.  A lower viral load is associated with a greater chance at viral response when treating.  It seems like a good thing.  Anybody disagree?

best,
Willy

[Trinity4]

MB,

If you are implying that we are misguided because some of us don't believe in supplements as an adjunct to SOC or an alternative to living with hepc I find that to be the same tunnel vision you claim we are guilty of.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with my brain.  I have read and studied more about hepc than I've ever wanted to know.  There are no studies that show the progression of fibrosis occurs at a slower rate if the viral load is low.  Nor are supplements going to keep those of us with stage 3 and above from crossing over to cirrhosis.  

To each his own I say, and if one chooses to live in la la land with lots of shiny things in it....unicorns and rainbows and fairy dust than so be it.

Trinity

[desrt]

Please cite reference showing 3000 in sera progresses slower than 3000000.

[mhudnall]

Boy, I wish I had SVR'd. Not only would I be free of the virus, but apparently I would receive omniscience; I could be absolutely sure that my opinions were correct, unencumbered by such trivial things as facts, evidence and reason. And I could lecture people who actually have the virus that they only need to be like me and think like me to be free! Because everyone's experience is exactly like mine, and if someone thinks the opposite, well they must be wrong, because I can't be wrong, I'm omniscient! I'm SVR!

"And hast thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!"
He chortled in his joy.

'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

[merryBe]

I'm a little surprised actually that one person above suggests that the "educated are being duped." REALLY?  Perhaps,..... or perhaps the person who said that has been.
I have privately corresponded with many doctors, pharmacists, lab techs, etcetc...all of whom had formal education, all of whom would disagree with you!!

After all, we have been privledged to hear from HR in this forum, HR, who invented the NGI-PCR viral detection systems, who holds numerous patents on the same, and has spent a lifetime researching this disease as a medical doctor. He also has been duped I assume? If you understood the intelligence of this "duped" professional you'd all be stunned!!!!
Is that what you have us all believe? That no scientist who gives these studies credence has enough intelligence but they've all been duped?
It's no wonder then, that the educated no longer show up to educate....look at the reception they get!!!

Frankly I'm a little surprised that after having even medical doctors, such as HR  come in here and explain the chemistry somewhat to us that we would still be closed to the idea of a two pronged approach.
Not that I think there isn't snake oil out there...but this is where using our brains comes in really handy.
Let us Review the research, remember that studies will be smaller due to lack of huge deep pockets to study these substances (where huge profits will not follow)...but remember that when you begin to see a plethora of studies done using the scientific method, that just because a doctor is Indian or Chinese does not negate the validity of the research.
Surely we are not that closed off to new information!!!!!

BTW, Mhudnail was unsuccessful in treatment with SOC. So should he have done nothing?

I just do not understand why we can't come and reason together here...certainly those who have failed treatment deserve a chance to try to maintain their health.

No one in the heart forum gets reamed when they decide to start walking, or take omega oils, or cut back on their saturated fat intake.

So why such adverse reactions to things showing promise for liver people?

After all, WE ALL EAT EVERY DAY..........right?  Do you stop to think, now gee, this carrot is going to boost my immune system, it will help me to see at night by restoring the levels of visual purple in my eyeball through the actions of vitamins A & D...
NO
we don't think about all that....we just eat the carrot...and we know it is good for us.
it promotes health.
Likewise, herbs can be beneficial to health just as regular vegetables and fruits we eat every day.
So the idea of looking into and at the research and discovering which things may help us, and then using them....why is this a bad idea. We are changing our chemistry everyday by what we eat...why not eat for optimal health...why not supplement for optimal health?

the only caveat I have to some of the liver formula products out there is that they do not take into account stage of disease. Sites that promote tonics for any stage of disease should be avoided. One size does not fit all here.
example:
Licorice is added to many formulas but it contraindicated in late stage LD, yet shows benefit in early stage disease. Ergo this is one area where folks need to do their homework and be assessed as to stage/grade before starting any regime.
The good news is, that doctors, like Dr. Zhang for instance, take into account people stage grade, and the licorice is not used in late stage cases. So we see that the trained medicals using herbal supplements are not just throwing the kitchen sink at everyone...they are following the science and this is encouraging.

there are also contraindications if the truth be known for half the foods we eat..keep that in mind.
there are also contraindications to many things if one has certain other conditions.
Even vitamin C, good old harmless vitamin C can add to iron overload in liver patients by rendering the iron in foods more absorbable....and should therefore be eaten separate from regular meals.  I eat my oranges for snacks now, so I can get the liver benefits of C without the iron absorption component.

The bottom line is folks need to do their homework, and I search out each substance and read all the pubmed studies etc, pros and cons, before deciding what to add to my regime.

There is ample reason to believe that an educated holistic approach produces better results than the standard of care alone in most instances.

By holistic I mean SOC AND adjuncts.  Take a look at some of the centers using these approach, like Cancer Center of America for instance...their success rates are higher than Soc alone....adding nutrition, dietary controls, appropriate supplements to the standard medicine increases positive outcomes across the board.

I'm not suggesting anyone chant mantras, or drip wax in their ears to get the drugs out here.......
(we need to use our common sense.)
Only that they take a look at the studies, the science, before dismissing out of hand those things which we are only now discovering have actual  scientific validity.

It is my understanding that viral load does bounce around...but I have never seen several million reduced to a few thousand and remain there have you?

Also, are you all saying that even if Mhudnail produces the labs as proof that it will have no bearing here...will mean nothing to some of you??
I'm rather confused by this.....if a person on SOC had that great of a viral reduction you'd all be rejoicing....what gives??? At 3000 his disease is going to progress much more slowly that at several million where it was.
Why not be glad for this?

mb