Decreased arm/hand dexterity, any good links to improve this are appreciated

[LazyMoose]

I need to get my arms / hands into recovery mode, my income depends on it. They are not going nub anymore, but have very tight jerky movements. I need to support my elbows for fine motor skills involving my hands, they are shaky..

This is a lyme symptom that is easily found if searched, but I have not found the magic trick to improve this yet. It seems to have something to do with lyme anxiety / tremors, but it is also separate some days as well when anziety is under control.

What helps a little but only temporary- trigger point pressure on the muscles, various herbal natural gels (arnica, msm, ect). Natural and Rx anti-inflamitories, Nsaids ect do not help much..

I am on ABX again, I dont know if more detoxing is needed, Im on liver detox but thats it. LLMD didnt really address this besides wait and see on ABX. Someone out there has been strugling with this symptom - I need that person to read this.

thank you

[JackieCalifornia]

Note also that Mg glyconate and Mg glycinate are NOT the same thing, and this can make a difference in purpose and effect, so it is advisable to speak with an MD or other medical authority before deciding what to take:

     --Magnesium glycinate is composed of magnesium, a common metal, and glycine, a primary amino acid.

     -- Magnesium gluconate is composed of magnesium and gluconic acid, a common biological chemical.

eHow has a short write up (no. 5664282) on the difference between the two.

[JackieCalifornia]

Here is a summary of various formulations of magnesium supplements, from Dr Mercola's website:
-----------------------------
If for whatever reason you decide you need a supplement, be aware that there are a wide variety of magnesium supplements on the market, which includes Magnesium glycinate, Magnesium carbonate, and Magnesium citrate. Courtesy of the fact that magnesium must be bound to another substance. There's simply no such thing as a 100% magnesium supplement.  

The substance used in any given supplement combination can affect the absorption and bioavailability of the magnesium, and may provide slightly different, or targeted, health benefits:

--  Magnesium glycinate is a chelated form of magnesium that tends to provide the highest levels of absorption and bioavailability and is typically considered ideal for those who are trying to correct a deficiency

--  Magnesium oxide is a non-chelated type of magnesium, bound to an organic acid or a fatty acid. Contains 60 percent magnesium, and has stool softening properties

--  Magnesium chloride / Magnesium lactate contain only 12 percent magnesium, but has better absorption than others, such as magnesium oxide, which contains five times more magnesium

--  Magnesium sulfate / Magnesium hydroxide (milk of magnesia) are typically used as a laxative. Be aware that it's easy to overdose on these, so ONLY take as directed

--  Magnesium carbonate, which has antacid properties, contains 45 percent magnesium Magnesium taurate contains a combination of magnesium and taurine, an amino acid. Together, they tend to provide a calming effect on your body and mind

--  Magnesium citrate is magnesium with citric acid, which has laxative properties

--  Magnesium threonate is a newer, emerging type of magnesium supplement that appears promising, primarily due to its superior ability to penetrate the mitochondrial membrane, and may be the best magnesium supplement on the market

--end--

[JackieCalifornia]

" If you are taking an antibiotic, avoid taking it within 2 hours before or after you take magnesium gluconate."

I would guess it doesn't matter what sub-variety of Mg it is (malate, orotate, aspartate, gluconate, etc).  That was just what the quote said, and I didn't change it -- and hey, I'm still waiting for my medical license to come in the mail or out of a gumball machine one of these years. Any type of Mg ending in '-ate' probably has the same issues and tolerances.

Spacing the Mg equally between your med intake should work okay.  Like ... if you take your meds at 8 am and 8 pm, you could take the other stuff at 2 pm or some variation on that.  You could also ask a pharmacist ... they often know more than docs do about this stuff.  

[LazyMoose]

Drugs ******* does not list Magnesium Glycinate,(correct spelling) but I imagine all forms of magnesium can cause some absorption issues with other drugs to some extent, the question is how much?

Same goes for calcium, even milk. And yet many people take both of these at the same time with Rx drugs. Many "limies" reading this right now probably do this, with their LLMD knowing.

This is a tough one. Many "lymies" take oral ABX, Probiotics and Magnessium. Its hard to space these out as to not overlap.

And then some take oral hypothyroid med also which needs to be taken on an empty stomach 4 hours from all vitamins and minerals - if swallowed. In my case, I take natural thyroid (Rx pig thyroid) sublingualy, so stomach contents should not matter then. Not enough time in the day to really make it all work perfectly spaced apart. Unless you set an alarm in the middle of the night to take something - I have heard of people doing that, not something most people would do.

Health professionals are human (ok maybe not all of them) so opinions will most likely vary.

[JackieCalifornia]

Below is from drugs [dot] com, specifically about magnesium gluconate (I didn't look for other forms of magnesium):

---------------beginning of clip-------------------------------------------
What other drugs will affect magnesium?

Certain antibiotics should not be taken at the same time as magnesium gluconate because they may not be absorbed as well by your body. If you are taking an antibiotic, avoid taking it within 2 hours before or after you take magnesium gluconate.

Before taking magnesium gluconate, tell your doctor if you are using any of the following drugs:

    -- naladixic acid (NegGram);

    -- penicillamine (Cuprimine, Depen);

    -- an antibiotic such as tetracycline (Brodspec, Sumycin, Tetracap, and others), demeclocycline (Declomycin), doxycycline (Vibramycin, Monodox, Doryx, Doxy, and others), or minocycline (Minocin, Dynacin, and others);

    -- a fluoroquinolone antibiotic such as ciprofloxacin (Cipro), gatifloxacin (Tequin), levofloxacin (Levaquin), lomefloxacin (Maxaquin), moxifloxacin (Avelox), norfloxacin (Noroxin), ofloxacin (Floxin), sparfloxacin (Zagam), or trovafloxacin (Trovan); or

    -- a medication for osteoporosis or Paget's disease, such as alendronate (Fosamax), etidronate (Didronel), ibandronate (Boniva), risedronate (Actonel), or tiludronate (Skelid).

If you are using any of these drugs, you may not be able to use magnesium gluconate, or you may need dosage adjustments or special tests during treatment.

There may be other drugs not listed that can affect magnesium gluconate. -------------------end of clip---------------------------------------

Pharmacists are the go-to people on drug interactions etc., since it's all they do, and they have to know it well.  So ... ask your pharmacist.  Let us know what you hear back.

[LazyMoose]

Question- I have read / heard conflicting info on magnesium interfering with ABX. My DR doesn't think so, but I've read online people think it does. ? any opinions?

Mg testing - Mg serum test (common) is not as accurate as the Red Blood Cell Mg test.

[mojogal]

I think most chronic Lyme patients need to test their levels of magnesium. Before treatment I was low in magnesium, vitamin d and b12.
I had been sick over 20 years but I have seen that for those of us sick for so long our levels become depleted.

[JackieCalifornia]

Good data on your Mg use -- I'm always interested in hearing what approaches others use.

Depending on how far apart your Mg and other meds need to be, can you take meds 3x a day instead of 2x a day, so that you can spread out the Mg intake a bit more?  -- such as 1/2 the Mg at 10pm,  thyroid meds at 6am, then other half of Mg at 2pm -- or some other configuration that suits?  Just a thought.

A good pharmacist might have some ideas, or a naturopath, or your doc.

[LazyMoose]

Thanks for the effort on your reply................... I probably should have mentioned more stuff I've tried or currently use, .......Mg being one.  Lots of others will read this too though. Mag info is on the thyroid forum now and then (it helps with thyroid brain fog and muscle tension) , but I haven't seen it here much.

Yes Mg is very underrated, over the years I've tried the various Magnesium "ates" and settled on KAL brand  Mag Glycinate which is similar to Mg Malate. And if I take Malic acid at the same time the combo becomes Mg Malate.

I take just 400Mg at bedtime. Unfortunately, I cant have Mag in the in the morning since it interferes with thyroid med (T3/T4) absorption that I take in the AM- I wish I could since mornings are when my muscles are the tightest.  

Yea, I,ve had the crazy stare from a regular Dr when I list just SOME of what vitamins and supplements I'm on. They just dont get it, but some are catching on. Magnesium is vary safe though, it does no harm.



They do have Magnesium oil topical spray also for targeting certain areas, but it takes a while to soak in and then you have to wipe off the residue (salt) - it does help, but its very time consuming and messy.

I'm fooling around with a few Amino acids that are supposed to have positive effects on repairing muscle and nerve fiber, nothings happening yet though after one month. Time will tell. There are many Amino acids and from what I have read so far, its the ratio combination of certain ones that increase effectiveness when they are manufactured in "combination recipes". If any  Lyme guru has come up with a "Lyme Amino acid recipe" , I have not stumbled upon it yet.

[JackieCalifornia]

Something I often post here as having helped me with muscle problems was magnesium (Mg) supplements.  If you haven't tried it, it's worth doing -- it's relaxing and can stop the twitches and cramps.  Mg carries the little electrical impulses from one muscle cell to the next and keeps the messages flowing smoothly.  Not enough Mg?  twitching and cramping, just like athletes get if they overdo and don't supplement.  

Apparently the Lyme bacteria use up Mg in their reproductive cycle, and it's easy to leave the ailing human without enough Mg to carry the messages (to contract and relax, over and over) from cell to cell in the muscles.  I wouldn't have believed it myself, but it really works, and I still take Mg every day now, tho I'm over Lyme.  I read that the American diet is often deficient in Mg too, dunno why, maybe overly processed food, depletion of Mg from the soil, who knows.  

I also read that one variety that is a combo of calcium and magnesium is NOT very useful, for reasons unexplained (I suspect it's low-grade ingredients).  There are however many kinds of just Mg by itself ... and any kind ending in "-ate" is supposed to be most absorbable in the body:  such as Mg malate, orotate, aspartate, citrate, etc.

I was taking one kind that is a combo of various kinds of Mg:  Mg citrate, aspartate and orotate, but can't find it lately, so I'm on Mg malate now, and it's fine.  Try a bottle of one, then when it's run out, try another, and see if one is better than others.  I get my vits and supps from a company online that has good prices and selection and quality, can send the company name to you in a private message here if you'd like.  They have a lot of brands, not just their own.  I also buy some locally at the vitamin store or pharmacy, whatever works that is good quality and not cost an arm and a leg.

Back a few years ago when I was just getting a handle on Lyme, I happened to see a regular doc for a specific, non-Lyme purpose and listed for him all the meds and supps I was then on.  When I told him how much Mg I was taking, he positively *sneered* and said I would damage my kidneys or something.  I read up enough to know that the dose I was taking would do no such thing, but you know how many of the docs are:  not understanding of Lyme OR vitamins and supplements, esp. during and after a serious illness like Lyme.  Fair warning, but I'd always tell my doc exactly what I'm taking, both prescription and not.

I'm often really sensitive to everything, food and meds both, but have had NO problems with Mg supplements.  The rule of thumb I have found in my reading is that if you get diarrhea, cut back on the Mg dose.  Hasn't happened to me, and I take a total daily dose of 433 mg, which the label says is 108% of the 'daily value', by taking 3 capsules in the morning and three in the evening with food.  

The label on the Mg malate I am taking now says to take 2 to 6 capsules per day with a meal.  I take 6 capsules total per day (=433mg total) -- 3 in the morning, 3 in the evening -- with no problems ... and as said, I am a total lightweight when it comes to stuff like this.

Sorry this is so long, but it's my entire speech on "Mg, And Why I Still Take It":  it works!!  Give it a whirl.  Let us know what you think, if you try it.