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TBD's and Anesthesia

Has anyone experienced persisting symptoms after undergoing an anesthetic procedure?  After both of my last two surgeries, my reading vision was significantly altered.  I have more surgeries in my future, and am getting no answers from the medical experts as to why this is happening, and more importantly, what can be done to mitigate future vision deterioration.
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Avatar universal
I have read that some kinds of bacteria (including Lyme) form biofilms on implants. It can be extremely difficult to eradicate such an infection.  The LymeMD blogger mentions a patient with a rod implant who kept getting recurring infections at the implant site. He says an infectious disease doc told her she'd need to be on antibiotics the rest of her life.  I wonder if that doc knew about biofilm busters like Flagyl and Tindamax?

My doc's physician's assistant told me that my doc usually recommends removing all foreign bodies possible so they don't interfere with treatment.
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Avatar universal
Your comment at the end of the last post about possible immune system reaction to implants made me think ... perhaps it's another aspect of the immune system fighting so very hard against any and all invaders (whether bacterial as in Lyme or silicone or otherwise).  Once the immune system is on high alert, it doesn't take much to trigger a reaction.  I had a sibling who was allergic to all sorts of things, and I seem to recall that the more exposures to an allergen, the bigger the reaction each time.  Maybe the same concept applies in some ways to interactions of the body not only with Lyme, but magnified with Lyme and other provokers of the immune system.   Hmmm...  Wonder what an allergist would say?
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Avatar universal
I'm sorry to hear you've been though all this.

The vision changes sound to me like the normal change that comes about our age, short sightedness shifts to long sightedness. So I reckong this could be a natural change.

On the other hand, I'ìd get a decent ophthalmologist to check. Lyme can make you go blind in about 7 different ways and once it's happened, it's too late to go back. When making the appointment I would simply ask to talk to them and ask ask their level of knowledge on lyme disease. I had about ten different tests done by my opthalmologist as soon as I mentioned Lyme and I was onyl there for a screening.

Have you asked youi lyme doc about the implants? I've read of several people with lyme getting imune reactions to them. I think it could be the autoimmune situation that happens to some of us with lyme, but I'm not certain.
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Avatar universal
Oh my, you have been through the mill!  Bless your heart.  

Your ophthalmologist may the 'exception that proves the rule' -- meaning he's not one of the vast majority of ophthalmologists who take persistent Lyme seriously.  Tho you've had your fill of MDs lately, you may wish to consider a second opinion from another ophthalmologist.  I think that's what I would do, in your situation.

If you send an email to

           contact [at] ILADS [dot] org

and specify that you need the name of one or more ophthalmologists within ____ miles of [your city or area], they may have something to send you.  A doc in the ILADS registry is no guarantee of a wise doc, but it's a start.

Let us know how we can help, okay?  Sending you all good wishes --
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Avatar universal
Yes, I had a thorough exam by an ophthalmologist.  However, he was disinclined to take CLD seriously until I mentioned having two more surgeries in the near future, and my concerns over additional vision loss.  The fear of malpractice can be quite motivating.  Everything was structurally sound, and my sed rate was normal.

I had glasses for driving for about 15 years, as I couldn't read street signs until I was almost at the intersection.  I could, however, read all but the smallest print on a prescription label. My distance vision is now 20/20, the astigmatism has self-corrected, and I need glasses to read all but the largest print on a prescription bottle.  I also now need glasses when working on the computer.  I can read only large-print magazines and books without glasses.

I am 51.  I had a bilateral mastectomy and tissues expanders in August 2011.  A subsequent infection mandated the removal of one of the expanders in December, and another expander was implanted in March, which is when I had my first vision change.  The expanders were replaced with implants in July, which is when I had my second vision change.

The surgeon did a really poor job as far as symmetry goes, hence the need for another surgery.  I also was attacked by a dog in July 2010, and the orthopedic surgeon on call at the hospital totally botched that surgery (his associate who did the corrective surgery couldn't believe someone from their clinic did the initial surgery).  While I have pretty good use of my right arm, any sustained activity or heavy lifting causes a severe inflammatory response, for which the fix is to remove the plate.

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Avatar universal
Hi,
I just wanted to come back in and ask if you've discussed your eye issues with a good ophthalmologist? As Jackie says, they all take lyme seriously and seem to know all about the amazingly vast number of ways it can damage people's eyes. If you got any useful info I'd be interested to hear it!

I gather the surgery was not connected with your eyes? Was it a lyme-related problem? Anyway as you mentioned additional surgeries, I do hope they go well for you.

You haven't mentioned what the surgeries were, but I do know when peope with lyme get any foreign body implanted it can trigger reactions - hip replacements, boob implants, anything really.

Also, how old are you? I'm having trouble with reading vision these days and it has come on in pretty rapid jumps - which I suspect could be to do with lyme. But I am 45 which is the age when it's normal for this, so perhaps lyme is just making a normal process come on in a slightly unusual way.

I do have nystagmus caused by lyme which is very noticeable when reading or doing other close up work.

Finally, I don't want to be too scary but my mother has recently gone blind in one eye as a result of lyme so I would take this seriously and get your eyes thoroughly checked if I were you. Sometimes we can percieve a change in reading vision as long sightedness when there may be something different really going on, for example.
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Avatar universal
Thanks again, Jackie.  Wouldn't it be nice if Wormser and other researchers would give up on trying to prove that CLD does or does not exist and expend their efforts on doing something more productive?  After more than 30 years, if you can't prove it one way or the other, assume it does exist and go from there.  Besides, the Army study in 2008 seemed pretty conclusive to me.

It doesn't help that the veterinary community treats TBD's as curable.  In fact, asymptomatic dogs that test positive aren't even treated.

I did see an infectious disease specialist locally who claimed to have done his doctoral thesis on Lyme.  Unfortunately, he was on the Wormser side of the debate, and was of no help.  I'd like to put up a huge, flashing sign on Mt. Olympus that simply says, "Above all else, do no harm".

As for me, I believe the most plausible explanation is hypoperfusion.  I'll take some studies with me to the next appointment and hope for the best.  

Again, thanks!
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Avatar universal
Good, it sounds like you're on top of things in getting the docs pointed in the right direction.

Lyme does have subtle and miserable effects, a bit different in everyone, it seems, which is part of what is confusing to nonLLMDs.

Agreed about Lyme docs flying under the radar.  Unfortunately, in the wild west of medicine as Lyme is, there are a fair number of wackos treating Lyme that I wouldn't take my dog to, never mind myself or my family.

Of the 20 docs I worked my way through before finding an LLMD, most were highly credentialed by the best medical schools, years of practice in major medical institutions, and so on ... and they didn't have a clue.  Sometimes I think the air is rather thin up there on Mt Olympus, and it shows.  Partly also I think it's because in order to reach the top of a profession, one not only has to go to the best schools and do the best residency and training, one must also be politically correct within the medical establishment, and in the world of Lyme, lack of orthodoxy with IDSA standards is the kiss of death.

Part of the requirement for orthodoxy is because of the complexity of medicine and the inability of any one person to know it all ... so the docs rely on each other, and the specialists rule their respective roosts.  Makes sense, but there is peril.  Personal example:  a lifelong friend of mine (I helped him fill out his med school applications, and we go back even before that), when told of my Lyme diagnosis, went ballistic out of concern that I was being pulled into a den of thieves and quacks.  Mind you, my friend is now an immunologist, so he feels that he is in command of the terrain ... but sadly, it is those in his field and allied fields (infectious disease, rheumatology) who have drunk most deeply of the 'Lyme is no big deal' wine.  

The docs who have build their entire careers on Lyme being hard to get and easy to cure (such as Wormser, Steere, et al.) are loathe to back down now, for reasons of (in my opinion) hubris.  Worse than these docs taking their own patients down the garden path is the hammerlock they hold on deciding what is and is not Lyme and how and how not to treat, meaning that in states where the medical boards do not follow a rule of conscience for each MD to practice as s/he sees fit, there is a crack down on LLMDs who do not follow the IDSA 'guidelines.'  Texas is a prime example, and there are virtually no LLMDs in the entire state, from what I hear.

Thus I am not surprised that there are no specialists in your area, wherever it is, who do not admit to being LLMD-leaning.  There are however docs who THINK they are LLMDs but are still fearful of letting go of their sky hook and will follow IDSA standards out of fear or ignorance, while seeming to be open-minded about Lyme diagnosis and treatment, as well as about co-infections, which nonLLMDs mainly ignore, it seems.

This diatribe is a long way of saying:  a doc who has a diploma and training from even the best of schools and medical centers may still be woefully off the mark when it comes to diagnosis and treatment of Lyme and its co-infections (which cannot be ignored).  In fact, sometimes having gone to the 'best schools' predisposes one to clinging to uncritical orthodoxy.  

If you have not already, I highly recommend a walk through the ILADS [dot] org website, a rambling and messy work in constant progress -- ILADS being the main voluntary group for LLMDs and their camp followers like me.  Burrascano's treatment guidelines are posted there, and give much insight into the way an LLMD thinks.  ILADS is also now given to posting videos of their annual conferences, but the clips on YouTube are very amateurish and not very helpful -- abbreviated and with focus on the speaker's face rather than the slides to which the commentary refers constantly.  Frustrating, but I think available in full for $, tho I haven't gone that far into it.

I ramble on because of your last paragraph above, about choosing a doc from the best schools who now practices in a Lyme-endemic area:  in my experience and reading, neither of those characteristics is necessarily indicative of a wise and capable physician who can take you back to health.

Good for you for sussing out in your own reading what is going on with your health, and I hope sincerely you have the energy and focus to do the same 'fisking' of what you are hearing from your Lyme doc.  Please let us know if we can be of any help.  Best wishes! --
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Avatar universal
Thanks.  I had considered a chemical component in the induction agent or in the anesthesia causing the issues, but felt that were that the case, the symptoms would abate after a few days, but the vision issues have persisted.  I know that propofol is the induction agent, and suspect isoflurane is the anesthesia.

You did provide an angle I had not considered.  I'd had an issue with post-op nausea, and they began providing an anti-emetic in the drip which has worked to resolve the nausea and vomiting.  They used promethazine, which I take in very small doses - usually a quarter of a 25mg tablet - PRN at home.  This was the only difference in the past two surgeries, and could easily be the culprit.

I don't know how long promethazine stays in the system, but I will find out.  My post-op preferred medication is Tramadol, and there is a major interaction risk of seizures between these two.

I do have an LLMD.  As for specialists, there are none in the area who admit to being Lyme literate.  When selecting a specialist, I research where they attended medical school as well as where they did their residency, and pick one from a Lyme endemic area whenever possible.
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Avatar universal
PS -- here's the header on that website page I mentioned above and gave the link to:

=====================================
Melissa Kaplan's
Chronic Neuroimmune Diseases
Information on CFS, FM, MCS, Lyme Disease, Thyroid, and more...
Last updated February 27, 2012

Surgery, Anesthesia and CFS/FM/MCS
=====================================

CFS = chronic fatigue syndrome
FM = fibromyalgia
MCS = multiple chemical sensitivity
and you know what Lyme is!
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Avatar universal
In a quick search online, I found some data on anesthesia and Lyme disease -- but not much.

However I did find some helpful comments on anesthesia and chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS) and chronic fatigue/immune deficiency syndrome (CFIDS) -- both of which are mysterious catch-all terms for conditions that look a LOT like Lyme ... and may be Lyme, just viewed by docs who don't yet 'believe' in Lyme.  

What I thought was the most complete site of the ones I found is:

              www [dot] anapsid [dot] org / cnd / drugs /anesthesia [dot] html

It's a fairly long page, with lots of data on it on different aspects of the subject, and also includes anesthesia in chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS), which some think is really Lyme disease but isn't called that by those who don't 'believe' in Lyme.  

I'd suggest you scroll through the page fairly quickly to see what the topics are over all, and then go back and read the ones that looked most interesting, because there is a lot of stuff posted there on the topic.

It's a site that 'believes' in Lyme, so you'll get the view of those who take it seriously, regardless of whether it's being called CFS or CFIDS or whatever.

In your situation, I would consult a Lyme specialist, often called here an LLMD, or 'Lyme Literate MD', not an official title, but a patient term used for docs who truly understand Lyme, or are doing their best to do so, since Lyme is still being figured out.

Here is another angle:  During the years I had Lyme and then was treated for it, I grew accustomed to apologizing to doctors (other than my Lyme doc) that I happened to see (like gynecologist, whatever) saying that I had been diagnosed with Lyme, and just thought they should know.  I'm usually not so shy about stuff like that, but having gone through 20+ unbelieving MDs to even GET a Lyme diagnosis, I was just not up for being dissed by one more doc.

But when I did my humble routine when seeing my ophthalmologist (MD specializing in eyes, not an optometrist or optician), which I do ~ once a year, he sat up straight and said "Oh! I'm glad you told me!  I take Lyme very seriously."  And he did!!!  Apparently ophthalmologist are believers in Lyme!  Who knew?

If your ophthalmologist did not react that way, then I would without delay find a new ophthalmologist and try a new run at the topic.  

If you feel you can do it, I would also call and ask the current ophthalmologist for copies of all your records, and take those to the new doc.  I believe that you are entitled by law to copies from your doc, without any quibbles and without having to give ANY explanations.  If asked why, I would just say, 'Oh, I like to keep copies of medical records just in case they come in handy in the future.'  What can they say ... "no" -- ??  I don't think so.

Then take those record copies to a new ophthalmologist and get a second opinion.  If that 2d doc doesn't work out, try a third.  Why not?  It's not your pinky finger we're talking about, it's your eyes!  Go for it!

Let us know how we can help, and how it goes, okay?  Best wishes, and you keep plowing ahead --
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Avatar universal
I have had two operations and had a terrible worsening of lyme symptoms after one of them which lasted years. I won't share details as it was everyone's worst GA nightmare and nobody'd ever have an operation again if it happened to them.

After the other one I was horribly ill and had respiratory crises but I could feel the effects were not as bad as the first. It was a far longer operation (4 hours vs 30 mins) but I believe the stuff they used was more modern. Plus the anaesthetist knew what he was doing.

It depends what they use for the anaesthatic, I know nearly nothuing about the details but I know they use a paralysing agent and another that makes you unconscious, some have a horrible effect and others far less so for those of us with Lyme.

This is the kind of thing anaesthetists are happy and usually fascinated to discuss with patients so if you miraculously found one knowledgeable about lyme disease you'd be fine!
I do so wich I knew the names of the anasthetics which are OK! The exact same rules apply to kids with autism so I would start research general anaesthesia on autismpedia if I were you.

If you do find useful links or info, please share it here as I think this would be useful for all of us to bear in mind should it ever become necessary.
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