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[nutrinut_bob]

I love wiki!  I noted that lab results of my recent ER visit showed high levels of neutrophils, but supposedly within the normal range.  Following that, I discovered that it isn't the bacteria or filaria, whichever I have, sealing themselves in.  It's my immune system trying to seal them out via a process discovered in 2004, known as Neutrophil extracellular traps.  Webs!  I couldn't understand what was making the webs, now I know.  Something new everyday.  Now to find out what Charlotte has in her web!

[JackieCalifornia]

No, I wasn't going *that* far to the dark side ... what I meant was that anyone reading generally about Lyme will inevitably run into the IDSA approach that after a few of weeks of antibiotics, the bacteria are all dead, and so you are no longer infected, and any remaining symptoms are your body's immune system over-reacting to now-gone bacteria ... like the little circus dog who keeps doing back flips even though the show is over.

I often run into quite respectable and thoughtful websites that automatically make reference to so-called 'post-Lyme syndrome', because it's considered settled medicine and practice.  That's what I thought of when I read your comment:  "From what I read on wiki, if you poke around the links enough, this could have some involvement in autoimmune disorders too"  -- that what you were reading on wiki was written by those who are drinking the IDSA koolaid, which includes (as you know) substantial chunks of mainstream medicine.  

A conspiracy of received wisdom, if you will -- meaning:  conclusions that have not been re-examined in view of new information. I'm sure there were those who didn't believe that the returning Christopher Columbus had actually made landfall to the west of Europe, because EVERYBODY knew fer shure that the Earth is flat.  IDSA, flat-Earthers, same mind set.

[nutrinut_bob]

Can't answer that, but I don't think the ISDA has enough clout to influence WIKI.  There was some mention of neutrophil extracellular traps being involved in lupus, which really just shores up things for those of us (ahem), who have theorized that autoimmune isn't the body attacking itself, the immune system is after something, with the NETS, trying to keep it from getting to a particular place, or in my case, trapping it.  Those somethings, could be a pathogen that like borrellia, can take on some of your DNA, but perhaps not enough to keep an active immune system from recognizing it as foreign.  I think I got 1wk of ABX recently, and that Doc thought it was the cure, didn't even stop things from growing upward from my calves. My herbals are more effective and less toxic to me.  When I tried to discuss things with him, he'd get this grin, like he really found it amusing that I knew words like encephalopathy, or neurotransmitter.

[JackieCalifornia]

"From what I read on wiki, if you poke around the links enough, this could have some involvement in autoimmune disorders too."

Not to sound *too* paranoid here, but could those links referencing autoimmune disorders be messages from the dark side ... I mean, from the IDSA-type folks who think everything after 2 wks of abx is autoimmune?

Just a thought.

[nutrinut_bob]

Jackie, I remember this happening in my hands when I was a kid too.  However, at that time I had some pavement rash to cover some of it up.  I don't remember things moving, I was too active then to notice if it did, but the pain and swelling I remember, along with my wrists being tight.  Someone pulling down on my wrists, like when wrestling with my little brother really hurt.  I remember the selling lasted a lot longer than what it took the pavement rash to heal.  I guess the swelling and color change presently  in my arms was caused by inflammation as the neutrophils herded whatever the invader is down to where they could trap them.  From what I read on wiki, if you poke around the links enough, this could have some involvement in autoimmune disorders too.

[JackieCalifornia]

What an odyssey you are on, bob -- keep us posted!  Tally ho!