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Natural gut flora after antibiotic use
Once people stop long term antibiotic use what are the chances of their gut flora maintaining healthy levels on their own?
Or do some need to take high quality probiotics for ever? At same or lower doses?
Guess this is a question more for people that beat Lyme and moved on, they might no be here any longer.
Or do some need to take high quality probiotics for ever? At same or lower doses?
Guess this is a question more for people that beat Lyme and moved on, they might no be here any longer.
My personal opinion is that everyone should take a high quality probiotic throughout their lives---- esp. as they age.
http://www.health.harvard.edu/fhg/updates/update0905c.shtml
". But a growing body of scientific evidence suggests that you can treat and even prevent some illnesses with foods and supplements containing certain kinds of live bacteria."
There are ways to get probiotics without swallowing capsuled probiotics---- live culture yogurt, fermented foods etc. But more variety of bacteria is found in a high quality capsule.
http://www.health.harvard.edu/fhg/updates/update0905c.shtml
". But a growing body of scientific evidence suggests that you can treat and even prevent some illnesses with foods and supplements containing certain kinds of live bacteria."
There are ways to get probiotics without swallowing capsuled probiotics---- live culture yogurt, fermented foods etc. But more variety of bacteria is found in a high quality capsule.
Yes I understand the importance good "maintenance" probiotics, which is not really my question, as most take, or should take A LOT during antibiotic use..
This is what I'm pondering: Once people stop long term antibiotic use what are the chances of their gut flora maintaining healthy levels on their own? - like before they were infected and before they were on long term antibiotics.
thanks
This is what I'm pondering: Once people stop long term antibiotic use what are the chances of their gut flora maintaining healthy levels on their own? - like before they were infected and before they were on long term antibiotics.
thanks
This is actually a really good question! In my own personal opinion, I would think that as long as you take enough high quality probiotics during antibiotic use, that you should be okay. Of course you would need to give at least two hours between the antibiotics and probiotics, otherwise it will cancel out the antibiotic. But I am sure you already knew that.
I say high quality!! From a high quality source. Not all probiotics are created and treated equal. In other words, it's nearly impossible to tell if the bacteria are actually alive. And some need to be refrigerated upon opening and others don't. You would really need to read the label on that one. Some are just dead, for whatever reason. The only way you could tell is by way you feel, and whether or not you end up with diarrhea and/or fungal infections. There has only been one occasion that I got probiotics that I thought were high quality but they must of been dead, because they didn't do what they were suppose to. Ever since than, I order online. More variety of sources and choices.
I say high quality!! From a high quality source. Not all probiotics are created and treated equal. In other words, it's nearly impossible to tell if the bacteria are actually alive. And some need to be refrigerated upon opening and others don't. You would really need to read the label on that one. Some are just dead, for whatever reason. The only way you could tell is by way you feel, and whether or not you end up with diarrhea and/or fungal infections. There has only been one occasion that I got probiotics that I thought were high quality but they must of been dead, because they didn't do what they were suppose to. Ever since than, I order online. More variety of sources and choices.
It's a good question to be asking, and one to which there is not one single correct answer for everyone in every situation. Different meds act differently on different people, and also as noted, some probiotics are not as hardy as others.
The 'usual' kinds of probiotics, such as acidophilus, need to be taken at least an hour before (or after? not sure) the antibiotics are taken, to avoid the probiotics getting killed by the antibiotics. My LLMD insisted on Saccharomyces boulardii (that is the generic name; one of the branded versions is called Florastor) because it can be taken at any time without regard to when the antibiotics are taken. That approach simplifies the dosing schedule, since you don't have to be watching the clock to know when and when not to take meds vs probiotics.
Rarely, S. boulardii [including the Florastor brand] can cause problems -- as it did for me. I got a raging systemic fungal infection from S. boulardii that is now (several years later) pretty much gone, but I do wonder if one of my sinuses still has a bit of it, because it flares up every few days or weeks.
My doc ran tests and said my system had been colonized by S. boulardii and that I should not take it anymore. I can however take acidophilus-type probiotics without a problem. It appears that I am simply susceptible to fungal infections, and S. boulardii is in the fungus family, which is why antibiotics don't kill it. Acidophilus, on the other hand, is NOT in the fungus family, which is why antibiotics kill off acidophilus.
But back to the question of which probiotics to take: I've read that if they are refrigerated in the store, that is a good sign. So I'd go to a good healthfood store that pays attention to stuff like that and doesn't just leave crates of the stuff sitting in the warehouse for weeks or during shipping, letting the acidophilus die off in the bottle. How you can be sure, I really don't know, but a good health food store should have the acidophilus in a fridge..
Nothing's easy, eh. I think I'd look at a health food store rather than order online, because nothing's being refrigerated when it's being shipped to your mailbox, where a store that gets refrigerated deliver might be a better bet. You can ask the store manager what their approach is to transport of the stuff.
The 'usual' kinds of probiotics, such as acidophilus, need to be taken at least an hour before (or after? not sure) the antibiotics are taken, to avoid the probiotics getting killed by the antibiotics. My LLMD insisted on Saccharomyces boulardii (that is the generic name; one of the branded versions is called Florastor) because it can be taken at any time without regard to when the antibiotics are taken. That approach simplifies the dosing schedule, since you don't have to be watching the clock to know when and when not to take meds vs probiotics.
Rarely, S. boulardii [including the Florastor brand] can cause problems -- as it did for me. I got a raging systemic fungal infection from S. boulardii that is now (several years later) pretty much gone, but I do wonder if one of my sinuses still has a bit of it, because it flares up every few days or weeks.
My doc ran tests and said my system had been colonized by S. boulardii and that I should not take it anymore. I can however take acidophilus-type probiotics without a problem. It appears that I am simply susceptible to fungal infections, and S. boulardii is in the fungus family, which is why antibiotics don't kill it. Acidophilus, on the other hand, is NOT in the fungus family, which is why antibiotics kill off acidophilus.
But back to the question of which probiotics to take: I've read that if they are refrigerated in the store, that is a good sign. So I'd go to a good healthfood store that pays attention to stuff like that and doesn't just leave crates of the stuff sitting in the warehouse for weeks or during shipping, letting the acidophilus die off in the bottle. How you can be sure, I really don't know, but a good health food store should have the acidophilus in a fridge..
Nothing's easy, eh. I think I'd look at a health food store rather than order online, because nothing's being refrigerated when it's being shipped to your mailbox, where a store that gets refrigerated deliver might be a better bet. You can ask the store manager what their approach is to transport of the stuff.
Well then , its not just you :
["S. boulardii is sometimes used as a probiotic with the belief that ingestion will introduce beneficial active cultures into the large and small intestine. However, in immunocompromised individuals, S. Boulardii has been associated with (fungemia) or localized infection, which may be fatal."]
Lyme people are immunocomprimised with low T cells, and if one also has an autoimmune condition that could be a double wammy taking S. boulardii (Florastor).
Pre Lyme, I used to just take acidophilus.
Now I take VSL#3 which is recommended by many LLMD's. Its refrigerated at the pharmacy and has 112 Billion lactic acid bacteria per capsule (the highest I've found), and I take 2 a day 3 hrs from antibiotics.
But its spendy, so I dont what to take this forever. This and the other supps I take for lyme are a boat load of expenses - same story for many lymies.
It would be good to know how peoples natural "gut" recovery went on its own, post Lyme. Or would that be AL (after Lyme)?
["S. boulardii is sometimes used as a probiotic with the belief that ingestion will introduce beneficial active cultures into the large and small intestine. However, in immunocompromised individuals, S. Boulardii has been associated with (fungemia) or localized infection, which may be fatal."]
Lyme people are immunocomprimised with low T cells, and if one also has an autoimmune condition that could be a double wammy taking S. boulardii (Florastor).
Pre Lyme, I used to just take acidophilus.
Now I take VSL#3 which is recommended by many LLMD's. Its refrigerated at the pharmacy and has 112 Billion lactic acid bacteria per capsule (the highest I've found), and I take 2 a day 3 hrs from antibiotics.
But its spendy, so I dont what to take this forever. This and the other supps I take for lyme are a boat load of expenses - same story for many lymies.
It would be good to know how peoples natural "gut" recovery went on its own, post Lyme. Or would that be AL (after Lyme)?
hmmm, interesting data ...
a question: the probiotic you mention -- when you say 'lactic acid bacteria', does that mean the bacteria are cultured on a medium containing lactic acid?
I am genetically lactose intolerant, and so avoid lactose. After a lifetime of not drinking milk (but eating other dairy that has already broken down the lactose) I am now happily guzzling lactose-free [not just lactose-reduced] milk and loving it.
So, does the probiotic you mention have lactose intact or not? thanks for the data.
a question: the probiotic you mention -- when you say 'lactic acid bacteria', does that mean the bacteria are cultured on a medium containing lactic acid?
I am genetically lactose intolerant, and so avoid lactose. After a lifetime of not drinking milk (but eating other dairy that has already broken down the lactose) I am now happily guzzling lactose-free [not just lactose-reduced] milk and loving it.
So, does the probiotic you mention have lactose intact or not? thanks for the data.
"So, does the probiotic you mention have lactose intact or not?" - I dont know.
Good question, and you'd think the packaging would explain that.
On the box "Ingredients : eight strains of lactic acid bacteria..............."
then it lists the 8 strains
Its mostly marketed for people with major gut issues - you know the ones.
I called then once , you can talk to them.
LVS#3.com or signa-Tau Pharmaceuticals.com will get you there.
Good question, and you'd think the packaging would explain that.
On the box "Ingredients : eight strains of lactic acid bacteria..............."
then it lists the 8 strains
Its mostly marketed for people with major gut issues - you know the ones.
I called then once , you can talk to them.
LVS#3.com or signa-Tau Pharmaceuticals.com will get you there.
Yeah, they don't make it clear.
lactose: "a sugar present in milk. It is a disaccharide containing glucose and galactose units."
lactase: "an enzyme that catalyzes the hydrolysis of lactose to glucose and galactose"
Therefore lactase breaks down lactose into simple sugars, and people like me don't produce lactase, so we don't digest lactose into glucose and galactose.
Those definitions make sense, since "-ase" ending on a word mean an enzyme, and "-ose" ending on a word means a sugar [like glucose and fructose].
Then there's lactic acid: "a colorless syrupy organic acid formed in sour milk and produced in the muscle tissues during strenuous exercise." Which sounds like the aftermath of exercise.
But I can't figure out why one would take lactic acid (which itself is not a bacterium), since too much of it produces muscle aches and pains because it builds up after strenuous exercise. No time to do research at the moment, will have to wait for another day. I wonder if their labeling is off somehow.
lactose: "a sugar present in milk. It is a disaccharide containing glucose and galactose units."
lactase: "an enzyme that catalyzes the hydrolysis of lactose to glucose and galactose"
Therefore lactase breaks down lactose into simple sugars, and people like me don't produce lactase, so we don't digest lactose into glucose and galactose.
Those definitions make sense, since "-ase" ending on a word mean an enzyme, and "-ose" ending on a word means a sugar [like glucose and fructose].
Then there's lactic acid: "a colorless syrupy organic acid formed in sour milk and produced in the muscle tissues during strenuous exercise." Which sounds like the aftermath of exercise.
But I can't figure out why one would take lactic acid (which itself is not a bacterium), since too much of it produces muscle aches and pains because it builds up after strenuous exercise. No time to do research at the moment, will have to wait for another day. I wonder if their labeling is off somehow.
My doc also suggest probiotics with S. boulardii, for reasons unknown as I was not given an explanation. I seen all of the stuff online about causing possible systemic fungal infections in immunocompromised individuals, so I was a little apprehensive. I couldn't understand why a physician would recommend a fungus to individuals on antibiotics whom may be immunocompromised by TBIs. Maybe there is an obvious reason, but I am going to ask anyhow, what are the benefits of it? Other than maybe a possible addition to the probiotics. There are so many strains of probiotic, why do they recommend S. boulardii. Do you know? From what little that I have read on it, it would seem like the risk outweigh the benefits in us Lymies.
I have yet to see probiotics refrigerated at the store. I think probiotics that need to be refrigerated are okay until they are opened, am I wrong? And I think a majority of them do not require refrigeration nowadays, thoes are typically the ones I go for.
I have yet to see probiotics refrigerated at the store. I think probiotics that need to be refrigerated are okay until they are opened, am I wrong? And I think a majority of them do not require refrigeration nowadays, thoes are typically the ones I go for.
The more usual kinds of probiotics (like acidophilus) are themselves bacteria and are killed by antibiotics, so if you take them at the same time or too close to the antibiotics you are taking against Lyme, then the probiotics will die too. Result: possible or likely imbalance in the body that can often lead to a systemic fungal infection.
In contrast, S.boulardii (aka Florastor brand name) are NOT killed by antibiotics, so they remain active no matter what. These probiotics are able to keep the yeast from taking root (literally) in the body regardless of the presence of antibiotics.
Summary:
-- Lyme bacteria and acidophilus probiotics are both killed by antibiotics.
-- Florastor and S.boulardii are NOT killed by antibiotics.
Therefore Florastor/S.boulardii can be taken at any time and still be effective in keeping a yeast infection down.
On the other side, acidophilus and other bacterial probiotics are killed by the antibiotics that are also killing the Lyme bacteria, so acidophilus etc. are not protecting you UNLESS taken at least an hour away from the time you take antibiotics. Otherwise, the antibiotics kill the acidophilus.
I know, it all makes my head explode too. My doc liked Florastor/S.boulardii because then the patients [with Lyme fog-brain] didn't have to worry about when to take what how far apart. Because I reacted badly to the Florastor, I went on acidophilus instead but had to be VERY careful to take it at least an hour before taking antibiotics.
My doc was just trying to help patients be SURE they got the full benefit of probiotics, because the reality of fog brain is that everything gets forgotten way too often, so instead of worrying about spacing the antibiotics properly, Florastor could be taken WITH the antibiotics and worked well.
The reason to take 'good fungus' probiotics is to crowd out the bad fungus. It's a good theory and it works, unless (like me) you are susceptible to the fungus running wild and causing problems on its own.
My doc said he had never seen that happen to anyone, but that it was possible, and I was proof.
Why recommend S.boulardii? Because it is the only probiotic I know of that is NOT killed by antibiotics.
About refrigeration of probiotics, I would ask (1) your Lyme doc and (2) a pharmacist. The Lyme doc will know why you are asking; the pharmacist may or may not fully understand the question.
Also ask the pharmacist if they have refrigerated nonFlorastor probiotics in the pharmacy. If s/he says no, ask if they can order them or tell you where to get them. OR, if your doc and the pharmacist don't think refrigeration matters, then go for it.
I don't think it has anything do with probiotics 'nowadays' -- it's just that people may not be getting an effective dose of probiotics if they are mostly dead in the bottle. I wouldn't make assumptions. To mess up something as serious as treatment for Lyme by taking the wrong probiotics at the wrong time could well undermine the whole treatment.
In contrast, S.boulardii (aka Florastor brand name) are NOT killed by antibiotics, so they remain active no matter what. These probiotics are able to keep the yeast from taking root (literally) in the body regardless of the presence of antibiotics.
Summary:
-- Lyme bacteria and acidophilus probiotics are both killed by antibiotics.
-- Florastor and S.boulardii are NOT killed by antibiotics.
Therefore Florastor/S.boulardii can be taken at any time and still be effective in keeping a yeast infection down.
On the other side, acidophilus and other bacterial probiotics are killed by the antibiotics that are also killing the Lyme bacteria, so acidophilus etc. are not protecting you UNLESS taken at least an hour away from the time you take antibiotics. Otherwise, the antibiotics kill the acidophilus.
I know, it all makes my head explode too. My doc liked Florastor/S.boulardii because then the patients [with Lyme fog-brain] didn't have to worry about when to take what how far apart. Because I reacted badly to the Florastor, I went on acidophilus instead but had to be VERY careful to take it at least an hour before taking antibiotics.
My doc was just trying to help patients be SURE they got the full benefit of probiotics, because the reality of fog brain is that everything gets forgotten way too often, so instead of worrying about spacing the antibiotics properly, Florastor could be taken WITH the antibiotics and worked well.
The reason to take 'good fungus' probiotics is to crowd out the bad fungus. It's a good theory and it works, unless (like me) you are susceptible to the fungus running wild and causing problems on its own.
My doc said he had never seen that happen to anyone, but that it was possible, and I was proof.
Why recommend S.boulardii? Because it is the only probiotic I know of that is NOT killed by antibiotics.
About refrigeration of probiotics, I would ask (1) your Lyme doc and (2) a pharmacist. The Lyme doc will know why you are asking; the pharmacist may or may not fully understand the question.
Also ask the pharmacist if they have refrigerated nonFlorastor probiotics in the pharmacy. If s/he says no, ask if they can order them or tell you where to get them. OR, if your doc and the pharmacist don't think refrigeration matters, then go for it.
I don't think it has anything do with probiotics 'nowadays' -- it's just that people may not be getting an effective dose of probiotics if they are mostly dead in the bottle. I wouldn't make assumptions. To mess up something as serious as treatment for Lyme by taking the wrong probiotics at the wrong time could well undermine the whole treatment.
Interesting!
I knew probiotics had to be taken at a separate time from the antibiotics (I give at least two hours inbetween the two). It was just routine and common sense to me, but I completely understand how some may not know. The instructions I got with the antibiotics from my doctor was just to take at a separate time from the antibiotics, not very specific.
My S.boulardii is an additional ingredient included with the other probiotics you mention. So regardless, I have to space them apart anyhow.
Some require refrigeration, and some just don't. Not sure if it's how they are formulated that makes them different or what. Lyme brain is trying to get the best of me today. Anyhow, I made sure I asked the doc if they required refrigeration. And the ones I got did not.
I knew probiotics had to be taken at a separate time from the antibiotics (I give at least two hours inbetween the two). It was just routine and common sense to me, but I completely understand how some may not know. The instructions I got with the antibiotics from my doctor was just to take at a separate time from the antibiotics, not very specific.
My S.boulardii is an additional ingredient included with the other probiotics you mention. So regardless, I have to space them apart anyhow.
Some require refrigeration, and some just don't. Not sure if it's how they are formulated that makes them different or what. Lyme brain is trying to get the best of me today. Anyhow, I made sure I asked the doc if they required refrigeration. And the ones I got did not.
* I meant the instructions I got with the probiotics from my doctor was just to
take at a separate time from the antibiotics, not very specific.
Uhhh, I guess Lyme brain is getting the best of me today!!
take at a separate time from the antibiotics, not very specific.
Uhhh, I guess Lyme brain is getting the best of me today!!
I'm with you -- a 'separate time' could be anything from 30 seconds to a week in my mind.
It's worth asking a pharmacist about refrigeration etc. ... they are the experts on this stuff, not the docs, because pharmacists deal with the chemical realities of meds every day, all day. When you get the data, if it's of interest, would you post a new thread here for the benefit of all? Something like 'Pharmacy says: how to take probiotics'.
I sometimes feel sorry for pharmacists, because they know SO much about meds and interactions etc. but don't have much of a chance to communicate it all since the docs are the kings on the mountain in medicine.
Take care -- hope you feel better soon. J.
It's worth asking a pharmacist about refrigeration etc. ... they are the experts on this stuff, not the docs, because pharmacists deal with the chemical realities of meds every day, all day. When you get the data, if it's of interest, would you post a new thread here for the benefit of all? Something like 'Pharmacy says: how to take probiotics'.
I sometimes feel sorry for pharmacists, because they know SO much about meds and interactions etc. but don't have much of a chance to communicate it all since the docs are the kings on the mountain in medicine.
Take care -- hope you feel better soon. J.
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