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general grotty effects from antibiotics?
Has anyone had generally nasty symptoms which turned out to be caused by antibiotics? I'm talking about things that are hard to distinguish from Lyme symptoms, such as tiredness, achiness etc?
The reason I am asking is that my little boy, who's been on Oraxim and azithromycin for almost 2 years, has been getting more and more tired and unwell over the last few months and we are trying to figure out if his lyme is worsening, or if he could be getting grotty effects from the antibiotics.
Personally I think it's probably the lyme and maybe he has developed resistance to these abx. But my husband wants it to be the antibiotics instead, he cannot face the idea that the disease may actually have worsened again.
I did have bad effects from my antibiotics and felt way better after stopping them all and taking herbs instead, but I don't know how common this is.
The reason I am asking is that my little boy, who's been on Oraxim and azithromycin for almost 2 years, has been getting more and more tired and unwell over the last few months and we are trying to figure out if his lyme is worsening, or if he could be getting grotty effects from the antibiotics.
Personally I think it's probably the lyme and maybe he has developed resistance to these abx. But my husband wants it to be the antibiotics instead, he cannot face the idea that the disease may actually have worsened again.
I did have bad effects from my antibiotics and felt way better after stopping them all and taking herbs instead, but I don't know how common this is.
I always keep a stash of liquid nystatin around for those rare times that the flucanazole doesn't work.
About whether 3 weeks of Nystatin is enough, there is a whole different aspect of Nystatin I would talk to the doc about. There is a short piece on wikipedia about Nystatin, and it includes the following sentence, made almost in passing:
"As [Nystatin] is not absorbed from the gut, it is safe for oral use and does not have problems of drug interactions."
That means it is effective only when it physically touches the place where the fungus is present -- that's why in a v*aginal yeast infection, they give you that little plunger-applicator: the cream touches the mucous membrane that the yeast likes to live on and stick its little root-like fingers into.
Ditto for 'thrush', which babies sometimes get after birth, from passing through the birth canal and picking up stray yeast cells if the mother has it.
Oral Nystatin ("swish and swallow") acts the same way -- the whole gut (mouth, esophagus, stomach, small intestine, large intestine) is lined with mucous-type surfaces that yeast root into.
Therefore the idea of Nystatin is to wipe out yeast on the surface. Well, that works okay, unless the yeast has moved into areas that surface medication doesn't touch, meaning a systemic yeast infection. It often happens in people with suppressed immune system, like AIDS patients, but can also occur in others who are genetically susceptible to fungal infection. (Like me. Who knew!?)
The docs don't usually get into the whole 'genetic susceptibility' issue, because Nystatin usually wipes the surface clean and the infection is gone, but once the fungus extends beyond the surface, into the blood stream for example, Nystatin can't reach it.
I'm no scientist, so can't explain it any better than that, but I would certainly raise the question with the doc about testing your son (and you?) further (since it's genetic, it runs in families ... I see traces of it in my relatives).
My LLMD was amazed when my blood test came back very positive, but then he jumped on it and treated with Diflucan, which gets into the blood stream and not just on the surface of the digestive tract, and he used high doses for a longer than standard time, tho there is risk of liver damage from that.
(There was a doc some years ago named 'Dr Crook' (can't remember his first name) who wrote a book about this topic before other docs had realized the inadvertent result of lots and lots of antibiotics being given, esp. in people with a genetic susceptibility to fungal infections. Oh, yeah, the book was called 'The Yeast Connection'. You might dig around online and see if it's still available, like on Amazon either new or used, if you're interested. It's written to be accessible to non-docs, so it's a little casual in its tone, but was the thing that clued me in a couple decades ago after I had an episode of fungal infection after my appendix ruptured [another 'stupid doctor' story I'll spare you] and I was on a lot of antibiotics for quite a while.)
My LLMD was very aware of the problems long term antibiotics can cause, which is why he insisted on also taking Florastor (S. boulardii) yeast-based probiotics .... and when it colonized on me (overgrowth, and spread into places it shouldn't have in my body), the LLMD said he had never seen that happen before -- I believe him, but it tells me that it can indeed happen.
Treatment with Diflucan works very well, but how long the treatment needs to be I don't know. I stayed on it longer than the standard dosing regimen, to be sure to kill the fungus in all the nooks and crannies where it was hiding. I also cleaned up my diet so that there was minimal sugar (including fruit), to avoid feeding the yeast. I felt worse at first, as the yeast was dying off, but no regrets.
Diflucan can be hard on the liver, which is why docs are hesitant to treat for a long time, so it's the balancing of a lot of risks.
Sorry to run on, but wanted to throw this out there. The doc might be agreeable to a regular course of Diflucan (about a week, as I recall) to see what happens. Sometimes symptoms can get temporarily worse, through die-off, but that means it's working.
Let us know how it goes and what you do, okay? Hang on -- 'when going through h*ell, keep on going.'
"As [Nystatin] is not absorbed from the gut, it is safe for oral use and does not have problems of drug interactions."
That means it is effective only when it physically touches the place where the fungus is present -- that's why in a v*aginal yeast infection, they give you that little plunger-applicator: the cream touches the mucous membrane that the yeast likes to live on and stick its little root-like fingers into.
Ditto for 'thrush', which babies sometimes get after birth, from passing through the birth canal and picking up stray yeast cells if the mother has it.
Oral Nystatin ("swish and swallow") acts the same way -- the whole gut (mouth, esophagus, stomach, small intestine, large intestine) is lined with mucous-type surfaces that yeast root into.
Therefore the idea of Nystatin is to wipe out yeast on the surface. Well, that works okay, unless the yeast has moved into areas that surface medication doesn't touch, meaning a systemic yeast infection. It often happens in people with suppressed immune system, like AIDS patients, but can also occur in others who are genetically susceptible to fungal infection. (Like me. Who knew!?)
The docs don't usually get into the whole 'genetic susceptibility' issue, because Nystatin usually wipes the surface clean and the infection is gone, but once the fungus extends beyond the surface, into the blood stream for example, Nystatin can't reach it.
I'm no scientist, so can't explain it any better than that, but I would certainly raise the question with the doc about testing your son (and you?) further (since it's genetic, it runs in families ... I see traces of it in my relatives).
My LLMD was amazed when my blood test came back very positive, but then he jumped on it and treated with Diflucan, which gets into the blood stream and not just on the surface of the digestive tract, and he used high doses for a longer than standard time, tho there is risk of liver damage from that.
(There was a doc some years ago named 'Dr Crook' (can't remember his first name) who wrote a book about this topic before other docs had realized the inadvertent result of lots and lots of antibiotics being given, esp. in people with a genetic susceptibility to fungal infections. Oh, yeah, the book was called 'The Yeast Connection'. You might dig around online and see if it's still available, like on Amazon either new or used, if you're interested. It's written to be accessible to non-docs, so it's a little casual in its tone, but was the thing that clued me in a couple decades ago after I had an episode of fungal infection after my appendix ruptured [another 'stupid doctor' story I'll spare you] and I was on a lot of antibiotics for quite a while.)
My LLMD was very aware of the problems long term antibiotics can cause, which is why he insisted on also taking Florastor (S. boulardii) yeast-based probiotics .... and when it colonized on me (overgrowth, and spread into places it shouldn't have in my body), the LLMD said he had never seen that happen before -- I believe him, but it tells me that it can indeed happen.
Treatment with Diflucan works very well, but how long the treatment needs to be I don't know. I stayed on it longer than the standard dosing regimen, to be sure to kill the fungus in all the nooks and crannies where it was hiding. I also cleaned up my diet so that there was minimal sugar (including fruit), to avoid feeding the yeast. I felt worse at first, as the yeast was dying off, but no regrets.
Diflucan can be hard on the liver, which is why docs are hesitant to treat for a long time, so it's the balancing of a lot of risks.
Sorry to run on, but wanted to throw this out there. The doc might be agreeable to a regular course of Diflucan (about a week, as I recall) to see what happens. Sometimes symptoms can get temporarily worse, through die-off, but that means it's working.
Let us know how it goes and what you do, okay? Hang on -- 'when going through h*ell, keep on going.'
Hello guys,
I should have mentioned that we have just done a three week treatment for a fungal infection, using nystatin. The suspected candida was not confirmed, but the doc said to do the treatment anyway because it is common with all these abx and my son had the symptoms.
He also takes tons of probiotics, which he's been taking since starting abx.
Jackie, do you think 3 weeks of nystatin woudl be enough? Or did it take longer for you to eliminate your fungal infection?
The doc said do a trial of 3 weeks and see what happens - basically using the treatment as a trial to check whether he actually had the infection.
So I wonder now if the tiny improvement means he has it but needs longer, or if that means it wasn't the issue.
Unfortunately waging war against mould hasn't changed anything. Well if I am honest, he is a bit calmer and less irritable (I say a BIT), but he is still exhausted and has a lot of leg pains and tummy problems.
Ricobord, how long were you on the abx before your kidneys got problems?
We haven't tested my son's kidneys for a while - could it suddenly come on after nearly 2 years of the same abx?
I guess we need to check them - thanks for reminding me of that.
Thanks all for your advice.
I'm finding this all terribly tough lately and I seriously could not cope without you guys. Lately I am suffering from a serious lack of friends who understand the $&/(=)/(%££! I am going through! I eel like you guys are my best friends even though I have never met you!
I should have mentioned that we have just done a three week treatment for a fungal infection, using nystatin. The suspected candida was not confirmed, but the doc said to do the treatment anyway because it is common with all these abx and my son had the symptoms.
He also takes tons of probiotics, which he's been taking since starting abx.
Jackie, do you think 3 weeks of nystatin woudl be enough? Or did it take longer for you to eliminate your fungal infection?
The doc said do a trial of 3 weeks and see what happens - basically using the treatment as a trial to check whether he actually had the infection.
So I wonder now if the tiny improvement means he has it but needs longer, or if that means it wasn't the issue.
Unfortunately waging war against mould hasn't changed anything. Well if I am honest, he is a bit calmer and less irritable (I say a BIT), but he is still exhausted and has a lot of leg pains and tummy problems.
Ricobord, how long were you on the abx before your kidneys got problems?
We haven't tested my son's kidneys for a while - could it suddenly come on after nearly 2 years of the same abx?
I guess we need to check them - thanks for reminding me of that.
Thanks all for your advice.
I'm finding this all terribly tough lately and I seriously could not cope without you guys. Lately I am suffering from a serious lack of friends who understand the $&/(=)/(%££! I am going through! I eel like you guys are my best friends even though I have never met you!
I was just reading on a website that seems rationale and well balanced in its approaches that
grapefruit seed extract (GSE)
is useful to deal with thrush, which is the oral manifestation of a yeast infection. I take GSE on my doc's previous recommendation, and maybe she did that because I was fighting the massive fungal infection I had back then. But I still take it today. Available in any decent vitamin/supplement store ....
grapefruit seed extract (GSE)
is useful to deal with thrush, which is the oral manifestation of a yeast infection. I take GSE on my doc's previous recommendation, and maybe she did that because I was fighting the massive fungal infection I had back then. But I still take it today. Available in any decent vitamin/supplement store ....
I was concerned when I was told to go off my abx because of my kidneys. But I was surprised how much better I felt in the next several days as the abx wore off. I told my hubby and my PA, "This is how I THOUGHT I should feel at this point in time." It was very eye opening to realize how much all the medications were dragging me down. The underperforming kidneys probably added to that. I just felt tired, crabby, and unmotivated most of the time.
I was taking a lot, and I suspect I will take less going forwards, which will probably lengthen my treatment.
I think your question is a very good one, and only a good, experienced doc would know what to do. Maybe it's time for different meds, or maybe he needs a break from abx.
I was taking a lot, and I suspect I will take less going forwards, which will probably lengthen my treatment.
I think your question is a very good one, and only a good, experienced doc would know what to do. Maybe it's time for different meds, or maybe he needs a break from abx.
Ditto what Jackie said. I have the yeast throughout my body and am still on the flucanazole. That can definitely do it.
In my situation, I was originally treated for Lyme and the co-infection bartonella because they showed up positive on my igeneX tests but recently, months later, my babesia test finally came back positive so that had made me seem worse and I have started treating the babs now also. Has your son been tested for co-infections? that could be another possibility. I agree with Jackie and let the LLMD decide on the abx and if you should lower or change it. Let us know how he does.
In my situation, I was originally treated for Lyme and the co-infection bartonella because they showed up positive on my igeneX tests but recently, months later, my babesia test finally came back positive so that had made me seem worse and I have started treating the babs now also. Has your son been tested for co-infections? that could be another possibility. I agree with Jackie and let the LLMD decide on the abx and if you should lower or change it. Let us know how he does.
I would see the dr before changing or stopping or slowing the meds.
Stopping and restarting antibiotics is something the doc should approve, since the bacteria can become resistant to the meds by being wounded but not killed.
One thing to ask is about yeast infection. Docs (even LLMDs) are sometimes not very savvy about these things, and I got a huge systemic yeast infection that several docs (not just my LLMD) didn't recognize as such. A yeast infection is a fungus, and antibiotics don't kill it, they just kill all the good bacteria which would normally keep yeast/fungus under control.
There are good probiotics that can be taken if that is the case.
-- Acidophilus is a bacterial probiotic, so it will be killed by antibiotics too, if taken too close in time to the antibiotic dose.
-- Saccharomyces boulardii (aka S. boulardii; brand name Florastor) is a yeast probiotic that sets up shop in your body and keeps the bad yeast away. This can be taken at any time, because the antibiotics don't kill it. The downside for me was that I am yeast-sensitive, and the Florastor went wild, giving me a systemic fungal infection that had the same symptoms as Lyme: tiredness, aching.
So ... what I'm getting at is this: your son, if he is not taking acidophilus-type probiotics or is taking it not at a sufficient time distance from the antibiotics, may have gotten a fungal infection from the antibiotics wiping out the 'good' bacteria in his body, so the fungus moved in and took over ... like a v*aginal yeast infection can do, only through the body.
If that's the case (or if he's taking Florastor and it has run wild) then the doc should in my experience run a blood test for fungus and then treat with Diflucan/fluconazole until resolved.
Too many docs just blow off a fungal infection as not serious ... like too many docs do with Lyme. I hope your son's Lyme doc has an open mind on the fungal issues; if he does not, then go to Plan B (different doc), but don't worry about that yet.
I'm not a doc and not medically trained, but my LLMD really dropped the ball on this, so I'm pretty outspoken on this issue. There are apparently some people who are genetically inclined to fungal infections, and looking back at my family, I think there's a strain of that running through my DNA.
Try not to worry, see what the LLMD says. Let us know how it goes, okay? Take care -- the good news is your son has careful and watchful parents.
Stopping and restarting antibiotics is something the doc should approve, since the bacteria can become resistant to the meds by being wounded but not killed.
One thing to ask is about yeast infection. Docs (even LLMDs) are sometimes not very savvy about these things, and I got a huge systemic yeast infection that several docs (not just my LLMD) didn't recognize as such. A yeast infection is a fungus, and antibiotics don't kill it, they just kill all the good bacteria which would normally keep yeast/fungus under control.
There are good probiotics that can be taken if that is the case.
-- Acidophilus is a bacterial probiotic, so it will be killed by antibiotics too, if taken too close in time to the antibiotic dose.
-- Saccharomyces boulardii (aka S. boulardii; brand name Florastor) is a yeast probiotic that sets up shop in your body and keeps the bad yeast away. This can be taken at any time, because the antibiotics don't kill it. The downside for me was that I am yeast-sensitive, and the Florastor went wild, giving me a systemic fungal infection that had the same symptoms as Lyme: tiredness, aching.
So ... what I'm getting at is this: your son, if he is not taking acidophilus-type probiotics or is taking it not at a sufficient time distance from the antibiotics, may have gotten a fungal infection from the antibiotics wiping out the 'good' bacteria in his body, so the fungus moved in and took over ... like a v*aginal yeast infection can do, only through the body.
If that's the case (or if he's taking Florastor and it has run wild) then the doc should in my experience run a blood test for fungus and then treat with Diflucan/fluconazole until resolved.
Too many docs just blow off a fungal infection as not serious ... like too many docs do with Lyme. I hope your son's Lyme doc has an open mind on the fungal issues; if he does not, then go to Plan B (different doc), but don't worry about that yet.
I'm not a doc and not medically trained, but my LLMD really dropped the ball on this, so I'm pretty outspoken on this issue. There are apparently some people who are genetically inclined to fungal infections, and looking back at my family, I think there's a strain of that running through my DNA.
Try not to worry, see what the LLMD says. Let us know how it goes, okay? Take care -- the good news is your son has careful and watchful parents.
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