Aa
serology report
hi, I just rang the lab. that did my serology test for lyme - my question to them was: do you have a more detailed report of IgG/IgM antibodies from my serology test?
the reply was : it was negative which means it is clear for lyme.
I was spoken to like a 'child' !!
does anyone know if there would have been a more detailed report at the lab.?
I have asked this before - thought I'd ask again & tell you the 'fantastic' response from lab.!!!!
the reply was : it was negative which means it is clear for lyme.
I was spoken to like a 'child' !!
does anyone know if there would have been a more detailed report at the lab.?
I have asked this before - thought I'd ask again & tell you the 'fantastic' response from lab.!!!!
Agree with your general definition of specificity vs. sensitivity.
Problem is that I don't know how to apply them (I don't think the doctors do either). The only simple way to put in perspective is if I knew what the distribution was for healty individuals, on both set of tests.
Problem is that I don't know how to apply them (I don't think the doctors do either). The only simple way to put in perspective is if I knew what the distribution was for healty individuals, on both set of tests.
I'm no scientist, but I think 'sensitivity' has to do with how small a number or size of something is before it's detected by a certain test, and 'specificity' has to do with how well the test identifies correctly something it has found. The lower the sensitivity, the more will be missed, and the lower the specificity, the more likely the thing will be misidentified.
Because the Lyme bugs are so very tiny, they are hard to find and the tests are not 100% accurate once they find something. Cutting edge science. The good news is, science progresses; the bad news is, the more it progresses, the less drs believe the patients and their symptoms -- if it doesn't show up on a test, then it doesn't exist. Odd, isn't it.
Because the Lyme bugs are so very tiny, they are hard to find and the tests are not 100% accurate once they find something. Cutting edge science. The good news is, science progresses; the bad news is, the more it progresses, the less drs believe the patients and their symptoms -- if it doesn't show up on a test, then it doesn't exist. Odd, isn't it.
yes, it does rhyme with 'hinge'! [or hingeing!]. and yes you have got the meaning right - I sometimes forget I speak a foriegn language !!!!
Bug Hug {oops! I mean Big!]
If you read the fine print on the Igenex lab report, it talks about the sensitivty of the tests but I don't know how that relates to confidence factors. Is a more sensitive test less stastically confident? In general this is true, which is the rationale behind testing with ELISA first. The Igenex report also shows that the ELISA is not much more sensitive than WB.
If Igenex and other labs wanted to make the test results convincing, it would be failry simple: create a distribution of blood work on healthy individuals and show the distribution of results/bands (mean and standard deviation). But I don't know because that data isn't available. I think it's disgraceful for all that we pay that we have really no way to interpret our results, and neither to the IDs nor LLMDs, AFAIK.
If Igenex and other labs wanted to make the test results convincing, it would be failry simple: create a distribution of blood work on healthy individuals and show the distribution of results/bands (mean and standard deviation). But I don't know because that data isn't available. I think it's disgraceful for all that we pay that we have really no way to interpret our results, and neither to the IDs nor LLMDs, AFAIK.
It's ironic that if you Google 'Lyme', many of the results relate to veterinary medicine. Vets know and take Lyme very seriously -- but the drs are busy ignoring it.
Hmm, maybe I should ... nah, never mind. :)
[Totally off topic: I love the word 'wingeing' -- does it mean 'whining' and complaining? And does it rhyme with 'hinge'?]
Hmm, maybe I should ... nah, never mind. :)
[Totally off topic: I love the word 'wingeing' -- does it mean 'whining' and complaining? And does it rhyme with 'hinge'?]
I can't handle too much detail - I like the plain and reasonably simple explanation that wonko and yourself gave.
When I asked lab. lady about 'bands' - it was like - I could hear her thinking 'oh we have a amateur scientist on the phone' !! - 'time to stop responding' !!.
since you mention dancing - here's a song for Lyme-ees! - Ugly Bug Ball - [''come on lets crawl , lets crawl,] etc;.....
hey - I am tired!!
....but seriously [well a bit] I took my dog to veterinary yesterday, I sat down in waiting room and when I looked up at the wall in front of me, there staring at me was a huge inflatable tick!!! - I asked vet. about lyme [didn't mention about me] - he said that the tick population is on the increase in this neck of the woods as well as everywhere else - he went on to talk about lyme like no doctor has ever done with me!!
enough of me - thanks again [ don't think I'd be coping half as well without all you folks]
HUGS
Wonko is right -- it's not the bits of the Lyme bugs that the test detects -- it's antibodies your body has made to the Lyme bugs. (Thanks for correction.)
There is a fairly detailed explanation of the test at www (dot) igenex (dot) com [forward slash] labtest (dot) htm, and some other places on the igenex website, if you're really into that stuff. My eyes begin to glaze over at a certain point ... :)
Medicine is an art based on science, and making the bridge between the two is tricky. Which is why we're all hanging around here; otherwise we'd be out dancing. Ha!
There is a fairly detailed explanation of the test at www (dot) igenex (dot) com [forward slash] labtest (dot) htm, and some other places on the igenex website, if you're really into that stuff. My eyes begin to glaze over at a certain point ... :)
Medicine is an art based on science, and making the bridge between the two is tricky. Which is why we're all hanging around here; otherwise we'd be out dancing. Ha!
yes - thanks - now I understand what 'bands' mean. [I did try looking it up but didn't find the information].
The test was ordered by my G.P. not LLMD. - I am seeing him [first appointment] next tuesday so hoping he can tell me details of the particular serology test that I have had.
Oh! I am so hoping this LLMD can sort me out - even if it is a definate 'no' for lyme - [mind you I don't know where I would go from there!!] The thought of having to live with this and no dx. is horrible.
-of course their are a lot of people a LOT worse of than me - so I had better stop wingeing.
thankyou for that very informative post - I am sure it will be appreciated by others too.
Big Hug
The test was ordered by my G.P. not LLMD. - I am seeing him [first appointment] next tuesday so hoping he can tell me details of the particular serology test that I have had.
Oh! I am so hoping this LLMD can sort me out - even if it is a definate 'no' for lyme - [mind you I don't know where I would go from there!!] The thought of having to live with this and no dx. is horrible.
-of course their are a lot of people a LOT worse of than me - so I had better stop wingeing.
thankyou for that very informative post - I am sure it will be appreciated by others too.
Big Hug
If you go to the Igenex website and on the main page navigate to Lyme disease --> Western blot, you'll find a description of the test there.
Being told you are "negative" is not the full story. My Western blot was "negative" because it didn't show enough evidence of Lyme, but it did show some.
I don't think the test directly detects Lyme bacteria, but instead antibodies your body produces to fight Lyme. That is speculated to be part of why many people slip through the testing cracks: If you've been sick a long time, your body may have "given up" making Lyme antibodies.
I honestly don't fully understand or trust the blood tests. I know they failed me, that's about it! I read in another post that you plan on seeing an LLMD, and that is in line with how I responded to my situation. Hopefully that will help you either move closer to or away from Lyme, and closer to proper treatment for your condition.
Being told you are "negative" is not the full story. My Western blot was "negative" because it didn't show enough evidence of Lyme, but it did show some.
I don't think the test directly detects Lyme bacteria, but instead antibodies your body produces to fight Lyme. That is speculated to be part of why many people slip through the testing cracks: If you've been sick a long time, your body may have "given up" making Lyme antibodies.
I honestly don't fully understand or trust the blood tests. I know they failed me, that's about it! I read in another post that you plan on seeing an LLMD, and that is in line with how I responded to my situation. Hopefully that will help you either move closer to or away from Lyme, and closer to proper treatment for your condition.
You are in the UK, right? I don't know what patient's rights are to get copies of medical tests and records, but here in the US, it's required to hand them over on request (sometimes after much moaning and footdragging by the office staff).
Some Lyme tests from non-Igenex labs are not detailed like the Igenex tests and only say "negative" or "positive". There is a good website somewhere that explains how this works, but I don't recall now where it is. My very unscientific explanation follows here:
When a blood sample is taken, it is mixed with chemicals that break up any Lyme bacteria in the blood, and that mixture is then run down a screen impregnated with stripes ('bands') with certain chemicals. As the blood mixture runs down the screen, specific bits of the broken up Lyme bacteria will cling to bands specifically made to catch them. The more bits that cling to a particular band show that relatively more of those parts of a Lyme bacterium are in your blood sample. Each band is marked on the test result to show how strong the reaction was, and on which bands. The more bands that show up positive, the more likely you have Lyme; the more positives (+) that show up, the more bits of that kind in your blood sample, and so the stronger the infection. Some bands are more indicative of Lyme; other bands might pickup Lyme as well as other un-Lyme-related stuff and so are less diagnostic of Lyme.
The test results from Igenex actually list down the page the scientific name of each band (like "41k") and then next to the band name have either a minus sign (meaning not detected), or one or more plus signs (meaning detected), or "IND" (meaning 'indeterminate': maybe/maybe not).
By looking at which bands responded and how strongly they responded, the dr can try to tell (since this is all shades of grey and not black and white) whether you likely have Lyme or don't, and if you're under treatment, if the test results are getting better. No tests are perfect, which is why a LLMD treats not only on test results, but also on symptoms of how you feel and if you had a bite/rash. It all has to be taken together to diagnose, and even then it's not perfect.
Igenex reports more bands than the other labs I have heard of, which is why LLMDs like to use Igenex: the more data, the better chance of knowing what's up. The CDC-approved test reports fewer bands, and some of the unreported ones were taken out of their test (so I read) because certain doctors who are often in the news got a patent on a Lyme test that was tied to specific bands, so those doctors lobbied to exclude those bands from the 'standard' test, so that the patented test would be better, and these doctors could charge $$ for people using the 'better' test. This information is put forth in a number of books and articles I have read, and so far I've not seen it denied or withdrawn; look around if you are interested (and feel well enough to read it all) and see if you agree.
THEREFORE what comes from Igenex is a longer list of bands than the CDC test; some labs however just report back 'positive' or 'negative' and do not report bands at all. That's why Igenex gets talked about a lot, and why if your dr is using only the +/- test result, you should think about getting to a dr who thinks more deeply about these things.
Hope that helps!
Some Lyme tests from non-Igenex labs are not detailed like the Igenex tests and only say "negative" or "positive". There is a good website somewhere that explains how this works, but I don't recall now where it is. My very unscientific explanation follows here:
When a blood sample is taken, it is mixed with chemicals that break up any Lyme bacteria in the blood, and that mixture is then run down a screen impregnated with stripes ('bands') with certain chemicals. As the blood mixture runs down the screen, specific bits of the broken up Lyme bacteria will cling to bands specifically made to catch them. The more bits that cling to a particular band show that relatively more of those parts of a Lyme bacterium are in your blood sample. Each band is marked on the test result to show how strong the reaction was, and on which bands. The more bands that show up positive, the more likely you have Lyme; the more positives (+) that show up, the more bits of that kind in your blood sample, and so the stronger the infection. Some bands are more indicative of Lyme; other bands might pickup Lyme as well as other un-Lyme-related stuff and so are less diagnostic of Lyme.
The test results from Igenex actually list down the page the scientific name of each band (like "41k") and then next to the band name have either a minus sign (meaning not detected), or one or more plus signs (meaning detected), or "IND" (meaning 'indeterminate': maybe/maybe not).
By looking at which bands responded and how strongly they responded, the dr can try to tell (since this is all shades of grey and not black and white) whether you likely have Lyme or don't, and if you're under treatment, if the test results are getting better. No tests are perfect, which is why a LLMD treats not only on test results, but also on symptoms of how you feel and if you had a bite/rash. It all has to be taken together to diagnose, and even then it's not perfect.
Igenex reports more bands than the other labs I have heard of, which is why LLMDs like to use Igenex: the more data, the better chance of knowing what's up. The CDC-approved test reports fewer bands, and some of the unreported ones were taken out of their test (so I read) because certain doctors who are often in the news got a patent on a Lyme test that was tied to specific bands, so those doctors lobbied to exclude those bands from the 'standard' test, so that the patented test would be better, and these doctors could charge $$ for people using the 'better' test. This information is put forth in a number of books and articles I have read, and so far I've not seen it denied or withdrawn; look around if you are interested (and feel well enough to read it all) and see if you agree.
THEREFORE what comes from Igenex is a longer list of bands than the CDC test; some labs however just report back 'positive' or 'negative' and do not report bands at all. That's why Igenex gets talked about a lot, and why if your dr is using only the +/- test result, you should think about getting to a dr who thinks more deeply about these things.
Hope that helps!
thankyou , but could you explain more about 'bands' I haven't a clue about this!!
Wow. Are you able to get a copy of the report yourself? That may be the only way you can definitively see your (if any) bands.
You need to ask the lab if there is a listing of what bands were tested and if you were positive on any of them. I am not able to remeber what the bands are that you need to be looking for right at this moment., but I have it at home at the house.
You have to be positive for I think it is 5 or 6 to be CDC positive,
but that does not mean you are not positive. There are several bands that if you show positive for those, you are more than likely positive.
Sorry I am not better informed at the time, my brain seems to be going south on me!
You have to be positive for I think it is 5 or 6 to be CDC positive,
but that does not mean you are not positive. There are several bands that if you show positive for those, you are more than likely positive.
Sorry I am not better informed at the time, my brain seems to be going south on me!
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