Is my doctor flirting with me?

[mintchip]

Doctor thought I had some neck problems. Without asking he moved my (long) hair off my back (onto my shoulder) and used his fingertips to massage my upper back (bare skin). He didn't say anything or explain what he was doing and did this for maybe 15-20 seconds. I felt pretty uncomfortable and thought it was weird. (Admittedly I would be flattered if he was flirting but I was annoyed to feel so uncertain about how to read his behavior, especially because he seemed to be in a bad mood that day.

Then he moved his fingers to my neck and asked if there were sore spots.

Is this a legitimate exam? Is this touch appropriate for a serious exam?

He has been flirty in the past and I'm wondering how to read this behavior. I do have a bit of a crush on him, and that makes it hard for me to read his behavior objectively, but in the past he made a lot of positive comments about my physical appearance ("you always look nice," "you have a nice smile" etc.) and used to touch me a lot (on the shoulders, hand, and initiating hugs).

[Sara_MHModerator]

We hope that our members have been helpful with their insight and that this situation works out for you in the best possible way.  As the discussion has run its course, we are now closing it but wish you the very best.

***  thread closed ***

[AnnieBrooke]

Nothing about your exam required this kind of touch. And if he was touching you for sexual reasons, it contra-indicates what you have said in the past you desire from him. You once wrote that you only wanted a 'thing' with him if he really meant it sincerely. What you can be sure of is that if he rmeant love, he would have done something about it by now. Probably he is aware of the risks (losing his license, marriage, access to his kids) and has decided crossing the line isn't worth it, but he still can't keep his hands to himself. Given that, what he is doing now isn't very admirable or romantic, it's copping a feel of a patient in a clinic setting.

[mintchip]

Thank you for your feedback. This is what I have been looking for. It has been very hard for me to determine whether he was appropriate or not in this appointment. I am not a doctor and I have no real way of determining if something is unusual for an exam or not other than my own feelings and asking other people.

Now, I may be naive but I can't help but feel he is drawn to me--as I am to him--despite himself due to having feelings for me. Maybe I am wrong and he is just a sleazeball, but I can't help but feel we both like and care for each other. I understand that I am setting myself up for heartbreak, am doing something wrong (although I haven't DONE anything other than felt a crush), etc.

People DO sometimes fall in love sometimes (I am not saying this is the case here) even if the circumstances aren't conducive or right for a relationship.

But at least it helps me clarify things by understanding that this behavior does not sound legitimate. I know it might sound stupid or obvious to you guys, but just like most flirting, it's not entirely obvious when you are there and anything can be interpreted in different ways and/or be plausibly deniable. Especially when it's right on the line where you begin to doubt yourself. That makes me feel very confused by the feelings I am feeling and also to understand what exactly he is up to.

I hope you guys can have empathy for my being in this situation and having all of these feelings even if I don't handle things the way you would like. After all, I haven't propositioned him or anything, and to my credit I didn't flirt AT ALL during this last appointment.

In face I was even planning on quitting seeing this doctor recently but a family member discouraged me because he has specialized experience in my medical condition which would be hard to find in another doctor where I live.  So obviously it's a bit of a complex situation. I do value having more objective feedback on what he has been doing in our appointments and learning that you agree that it doesn't sound typical of a normal doctor-patient relationship (at least I think that's what you are saying).

[mintchip]

Last paragraph was meant to start with, "In fact..."

[specialmom]

Honestly, I think when you say "this is what I was looking for", you are looking for anything at all to keep the conversation going.  This almost seems like OCD and I hope that you are able to get some true help.  What about a counselor?   I know I personally hope the best for you and continuing this discussion is not really in your best interest.  It's like highly anxious people who keep googling symptoms. It just perpetuates things.  So, please see a counselor and move on with your life.  

[mintchip]

I don't have OCD and I don't need a counselor. I am responding to people who wrote to me because this is a message board. I think it's only polite to respond to those who have taken the time to respond to me.

By the way, only one person in this whole thread answered my original question, which was, was the exam my doctor gave me a legitimate medical exam or not.

[specialmom]

Wow, still?  This, at this point, is indicating a great deal more about you than it is this doctor.  Is there anyone else in your life or any changes you can make so that you don't have to rev up your romantic feelings in this way?  You clearly have a crush.  But this is so long term ongoing that you ruminate and obsess over it, that at this point, it is indeed nothing on his part.  That's my opinion.  You really need to move on and amp up the rest of your life to find what you are looking for.  good luck

[auntiejessi]

I totally agree with this.

[mintchip]

Thank you for your thoughts. Being in love, or at least feeling like one is, is one of the greatest mysteries of life. It has inspired people to great lengths, and I will not feel ashamed (or be shamed) for feeling these feelings. He is certainly adding to my feelings by his behavior, which makes me wonder if he feels similar feelings towards me. I do respect your opinion but I don't think it's right to try to shame me for feeling normal human feelings for a person I know who I have come to care about and like (and seems arguably to be similarly drawn to me).

To call asking a question every few months with an update on the latest obsession seems a bit of stretch to me. As I said, I have NO WAY of knowing whether the touching in the exam he gave me was legitimate or not because I am not a doctor. The only way I can learn more is to ask others for their expertise/experience, or as you say "obsess."

[mintchip]

Last paragraph was meant to read (I can't edit it): "...on the latest an "obsession"..."

[AnnieBrooke]

I also get the feeling from what you say that this attraction is rooted in him being in the position of power in the relationship. Women like it when someone they think is powerful gives them a hint that they are attractive, it makes them feel special, and they will tie themselves into knots to keep feeling special even if the guy is acting less than admirably. If you were to imagine him for a minute as being the very same married guy with kids, but who works as a cafeteria attendant or health-care aide or greeter at Walmart, I don't think you would find him so enticing. If not, that would suggest your crush comes at least partly from his status and not from his charm. I also don't think you would be turning yourself inside out to try to convince yourself that him touching you was professionally appropriate; you would probably see it as awkward or even creepy. Don't fall in love with an exalted image of yourself that you want to see in his behavior, it sounds like he's just being an opportunist.

[mintchip]

Thank you, AnnieBrooke. I appreciate everyone's feedback here and you in particular have been kind in your wording and helped answer the questions I have had.

I think your status comment is quite true; for women status certainly makes a difference just like for men it tends to be looks that matter most. I agree about that, but I also think that might be the way most of us are built. I do agree that what he did was odd and likely inappropriate. I don't want to make excuses for him. The only reason I might be questioning my true feelings is his odd mixed behavior and also because I doubt myself. If a person wants to flirt they often do it right on the line, and I guess a doctor that wants to "cop a feel" without getting in trouble does it in a way that could be plausably deniable. (By the way, my original complaint was for headaches and he thought they might be cervical in origin...that's why I didn't know if the back muscles could be part of a legitimate exam...however, even if they were it came across as "creepy" to do the exam in silence and without explanation).

I also agree that he may seem a little creepy and opportunistic. But the thing is, it's hard for me not to be flattered by his attention since I am already fond of him and attracted to him. I guess what I am saying is that feelings don't always respond to logic. I am trying to take everything you are saying on board. To my credit, I am not much of a flirt and am unlikely to initiate anything (I would want it to come from him), and it seems unlikely that he will. So it's highly likely that this will never go anywhere! But it is reassuring to me to know that I am not wrong, that the exam did seem a little odd and inappropriate to you.

[mintchip]

Were they said "with empathy" or was it "tough talk"? Those sound like different things.  I could tell from the tone of your answers that you weren't coming from a good place (after all, you have revealed that you find me "equally creepy."

It's also condescending to talk about my "mind and fantasy life" in the tone that you have, because my question was specifically about the legitimacy of the way he carried out his exam. (Of course, I am criticized for having feelings about what he did, but remember, actions may be wrong but feelings never are, and as a matter of fact, they are out of our control.

HE has been flirting (or inappropriate, or whatever you want to call it) with ME. One has to wonder what he is thinking or what is happening in *his* fantasy life.

I understand that it rubs people the wrong way that this guy is married, which makes it even MORE confusing and unclear to me that he has acted towards me as he has. However, I can't and won't deny how I feel about him. I understand now that I come across to you as "creepy" with my odd "fantasy life." I choose, however, to characterize myself as honest and human. And I will not feel ashamed for asking questions or for my feelings.

[auntiejessi]

Is this the same doctor you asked about last year - the married one that you had feelings for?

If it is, I have to agree with the advice from then - nothing good will come out of it.

If it's a different one, I think the advice stands- nothing good will come out of a relationship with a married doctor - YOUR doctor - who is treating you professionally, and is married to someone else. He would likely lose his license.

I do hope you find what you're looking for romantically with someone, just not your doctor.

[mintchip]

Yes, it is the same one I discussed here before. He has been flirty with me and every time I think he is not interested he does something that leaves me feeling utterly confused and pushing boundaries. During this appointment he was quite unfriendly--even a little rude, I thought--but then had his hands on me in silence giving me what felt like a massage. But then I say to myself, is this just him having an odd manner or being a charmer, not inappropriate or interested in me?

I know that you think "nothing good will come from it" but I am still at the point of trying to figure out what "it" is.

[auntiejessi]

Do you want a man who is giving you mixed signals? Who is rude to you?

Do you want a man who is married?

It doesn't even matter what we think at this point - you don't know us, and you're going to do exactly what you want, but my question would be why do you want this?

If a man wants to be with you, he will figure out a way to let you know. He will figure out a way to be with you. Whatever his feelings are, he apparently isn't going to act on them or leave his wife for a patient. He'd likely lose his license and have a nasty divorce, and who wants that? Or maybe he's just a flirty guy and it doesn't mean anything to him.

Let it go. Nothing good will come from trying to have a relationship with your doctor. That's the "it".

[mintchip]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, auntiejessi. You are right, I was unhappy that he was rude that day (I did hear another patient complaining loudly about something in the waiting room that day, so he might have been on the receiving end of that and thus been in a bad mood). He shouldn't have acted that way, however, and it did get on my nerves a lot. No, I don't want a married man per se but I have a more European attitude about these things and think people should be more honest with themselves and others rather than sneaking around behind someone else's back. (I handle myself like this is my own relationships but I don't control what people do in theirs).

Regarding a man figuring out a way to let you know, I do agree with that statement wholeheartedly, as well as the rest of that paragraph.

Thank you.

[ppowb]

Something not appropriate is going on here, probably on both sides. Be careful, chances are you are not the only patient he treats this way.

[mintchip]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Is there any chance I was reading the back touching/massage wrong? Or does it clearly sound off to you. (It felt off to me but it is hard for me to view this objectively). I have mixed feeling because while I do have feelings for him, I can't help but worry that maybe he doesn't have good intentions and/or is trying to take advantage of me. I just don't know. But nothing he does is so clear that I can be certain it's not all in my head.

[mintchip]

P.S. The reason my back was bare is because my top had a low back (but before he moved my hair my hair was covering it). When he moved my hair my upper back was exposed so he could examine/touch it.