Intuition - learned or unexplained sixth sense phenomenon?

[koukla29]

BB - Thanks for the book suggestion - I'll put it on my list!  I love reading:)  Well, if it's true that intuition is learned, how do you explain a child's intuition?  They wouldn't have had the time and experience to build the knowledge base you are talking about.  I believe that there are some things we cannot explain.

[pertykitty]

there are many things we cant explain. maybe dreams mean nothing but maybe they do. a week before my father became ill and died, i dreamt that my old car had a light glowing , you know like a check oil light.  it was a heart. not a valentine heart, but a human heart. it got brighter and brighter and brighter.  i cant explain that nor do i want to try.  i also had a dream that a girlfriend i worked with was going to court. it was odd, she had my hair, my body , for some reason i saw her face.  i asked her if she was going to court she said no, that night i was served with divorce papers.  the most odd was i dreamt of another girl i worked with.i dreamt  her drivers side door of her car was hit by another car.  i told her this before hand,,,she came to work after the weekend. her drivers side door was hit.   i know i sound like a loon but i promise its all true.  the women in my family have dreams like this.  however i do believe that we can read way too much into feelings , dreams, intuition.  i heard a comedian the other day discuss this same thing. how women all say they dreamt this so it was meant to be, well i dont sound funny saying it, but i have heard other women say that same thing.  i promise im not nuts lol but i cant explain this either.

[koukla29]

I know what you mean.  Many people on my father's side have dreamt things that have actually happened. I mean, not all the time, but sometimes when something big is going to happen.  I have also experienced this.  I am very close to my younger brother, and when we were younger, I had a dream that he was drowning under water and I was watching him struggle beneath the waves, and I couldn't do anything.  For some reason I was unable to help him.  The dream bothered me, and the next day, he went to the beach with my older brother and he almost drowned.  There was a really strong undertow and my older brother saved him.  I was at home.  Ok.  Maybe it was just a coincidence, but it really freaked me out.

I think we all have intuition, but society has taught us to ignore it.  Not to trust our gut.  This is what leads us to making decisions against our character.  When you make a decision against your better judgement, you regret it more than a decision you make that ends up being wrong.  Children are amazingly intuitive.  They know if someone is full of ****.  I think though that they are easily taken advantage of because they are so young.  

If you have never read the book the Alchemist by Paulo Cuelho, I highly reccomend it.  It's all about trusting your instincts in this world to find your happiness and it's written like a parable.  Maybe you wouldn't agree with it, but it's one of my favorite books.  Cuelho is a Christian and although he wrote the book for all cultures and religions, I think there are some Christian influences in his writing.  However, it's a nice book and it has sold millions - he appeals to everyone!  

Thanks for responding to my post.  I like this forum very much, and I also enjoy discussing different points of view on a variety of subjects.  I don't think we always realize how much our underlying beliefs truly affect the way we view the world and its events.  Sometimes it's nice to step back and compare on contrast opinions.  Thanks for indulging me since I am not talking about the typical and non typical relationship issues:)  

[green eyed lady]

Boy am I pissed...I just wrote a long comment regarding this matter and then...I lost it!! How frustrating!

I wanted to say that I do believe in gut instinct, intuition and dreams. I believe that when you don't follow your *gut* , you more than likely end up regretting it. I know I have. Why should animals be the only beings with this type of perception? It can go either way...if you believe in evolution: a group of *earlier* men are out on a hunt and as they are walking one starts to feel the hair stand up on the back of his neck, he looks around, sees nothing. He continues but this persistant feeling will not leave...well because of the *earlier* man trusting his instincts he soon finds that the group was also being hunted. Simplistic, sure, but true. Do you think *earlier* man said to himself..."self, this must be some latent neurological feeling from days past", no he says to himself that there is danger and that he should heed the warning. Without this man as a species more than likely could have ceast to exist.

If you believe in a Higher Power (as I do) you can look at it as the Higher Power sending us these signals that can be construed as intuition. As a Christian I have been taught to sit in a quiet room by myself and "listen" to what MY God is speaking to me. I really believe that there is merit to this as in my silence I have found some of the answers I needed, that had I not taken the time, I would have overlooked. Some believe, some don't.

As for dreams...I am not saying that all my dreams have meaning but I am gonna tell ya that some have help me immensely. My Grandmother, though 74 was in good health. Now this woman was THE most important person in my life..without question. One night I had a dream that she died. It felt so real that I was distraught. I decided that one never knows, so I sat down and I wrote her a letter letting her know how important she was to me and that without her I would not be the person that I am (long story). I mailed it, she called me crying saying how much the letter meant to her. 3 weeks later she died of a heart attack with no warning. I wasn't able to say goodbye ...but I was able to let her know how important she was to me and believe me to this day that still brings me a measure of peace..I still have the letter because she saved it.

In conclusion...I have a doc appointment...I believe what I wrote to be proof of intuition or instinct what have you. I also believe that society has made us believe that if we listen to these feelings and cultivate them then we are somehow loony. I know I am leaving without finishing but I really gotta go...will conclude later and Koukla I too enjoy this. Thanx. E

[barn babe]

How do I explain a child's intuition? Neurocognitive development.  

You don't give any examples of children's "intuition," but what I assume you are referring to is a child's ability to pick up nonverbal cues with ease. They are pros at it. Why? Because they are completely dependent on the people around them for their survival. That's hard-wired sh*t. It's evolution. (Xtians might want to cover their eyes here.) Picking up nonverbal cues is related to their immature brain development and lack of specific cognitive or language skills, not to any "intuition."  It is related to evolutionary survival, which is hard-wired.

I'm not saying biology trumps nurture. They work in tandem. I just read a study recently about how deception comes very naturally to children, even those at too young an age to understand consequences or punishment. I think that speaks to the importance of teaching moral behavior beginning at  a very young age. We already know that injuries or deficits in certain areas of the brain result in certain kinds of aggression, impulsivity, or the inability to modify behavior. I think it stands to reason that "social pushing" or behavioral teaching plays a huge role in our moral development.

I remain unconvinced about the importance of "intuition." Generally, the folks who want  to ascribe meaning to dreams and such are cherry-picking, leaving out the misses and describing their "hits." Somebody almost drowns - Wow! I had a dream last night about that. My cockapoo kicks! Hey, I just had a dream about that!  Nope. It's all too subjective.  

As I said, if there is any evidence for "intuition," it is in the realm of experiential learning. A seasoned chess player is going to have much more "intuition" about the game than someone who is not. But the  same chess player is not going to have much "intuition" about how his car runs, whereas a car mechanic would. Is it intuition, or is it experiences learned and then processed in our brains in such a way that we can call on it again? That's where I am with intuition.

The child thing? Neurological coupled with behavioral teaching. Nothing more.

[April2]

I do think we have intuition or a sixth sense. I don't think we always understand it but then again we don't use all of our brain power anyway right? There's so many things we don't understand. I think we are capable of so much and we just haven't figured out how to tap into that yet.
As for the dreams, my mom has had many such dreams. She believes God has given these dreams to her. One time in her dreams she saw the face of a man she didn't recognize but felt she was supposed to pray for. Years later she and my dad had moved and were going to a new church and she kept thinking the pastor looked familiar and she couldn't figure out why. Then it dawned on her that she had a dream about him! She asked others for more information about him and found out that he had been considering leaving the ministry years before (around the time my mom had her dream), but decided to stay. Coincidence? I don't think so.
My grandmother had a dream that her sister (whom she was very close to) was standing in her kitchen with her and said that she came to say goodbye. My grandmother said she was bewildered and asked where she was going? And she said her sister just smiled and said she had to go but she just wanted to say goodbye to her. Then she woke up. That next morning she found out her sister had died in her sleep the night before. She said the dream was very vivid as if it really happened. I could go on and on here. There's so many other things that have happened to friends and family that can not be explained. These are normal, rational people. I think some of us are just a little more intuned and listen to our "gut" or "still small voice". Most of us are running around so busy I think we've just forgotten how to stop and pay attention to these signs or signals.
I think it's sad that people like Barn Babe have allowed themselves to become so cynical that they refuse to open themselves up to the possibilities of things beyond our understanding. What is life without hope? Without dreams? A very dreary life indeed.

[barn babe]

April, you sound like a big believer in magical thinking. As does your mother. That is not rational thinking.

My life is far from dreary. I have set goals in my life and attained them. I have other goals I'm still working on. It's not going to be "magical thinking" that gets me across the finish line at the San Francisco Marathon. It's going to be the hard work I put into my training and diet regimen. It's not "God sending me messages" that is going to get our house remodel finished. It's hiring professional and skilled craftsmen and contractors who know what they are doing and paying them to come in and do the work.

Your mother's dreams are nothing but cherry-picked information to fit her worldview and unconscious desires. Unfortunately, you managed to omit the fact that during any given night, your mother dreams probably hundreds of times and yet has no memory of those dreams. Maybe something important was not "recalled" there? Sorry, but the bits and pieces of information in a dream about a "pastor" she meets down the road in the future are nothing but her selective memory coming into play. Who is to say that she didn't leave out important aspects of the same dream? We already know she can't remember hundreds of them she's had every night. I'm sorry, but dream reporting is completely subjective. Dream reporting is generally shaped to fit our worldview.

But I don't expect you to buy into any of this. You sound pretty irrational to me. Believing that a "God" is talking to your mother is laughable on its face. Do you believe in the tooth fairy, April?  Do you have any proof that the tooth fairy exists? No. (Please say no, otherwise we may be looking at a strait jacket and leather straps situation here.)  So show me the evidence for your God, and I will maybe change my tune on magical thinking. Until then, substitute "unicorn," "tooth fairy," "Bigfoot," or "Flying Spaghetti Monster" for "God," because it's all the same thing: fantasy.

[Jordy]

Barn Babe, my view has grown, in recent years, to be that those who don't believe in a "higher power" or "intuition" (or all the other things mentioned here) and those who do actually are experiencing the exact same thing--finding within themselves, in some way, the power to go on.  Did it ever occur to you (this is not an antagonistic question; I'm really wondering your thoughts) that perhaps someone else's "God" is just a forward reflecting image of the strength within themselves?  You have strong faith within yourself; you don't project that faith into a visual image of another "God" in your mind.   Others do.  I have to wonder if it has more to do with the way an individual's own mind is wired, such as different learning styles like visual vs. auditory vs. kinesthetic/tactile.  They "see" their faith/strength differently than you see yours.

Neither side can really be called "right" or "wrong" because if the result is a sense of self-fulfillment throughout life and peace at time of death, who's to say your lack of belief in a "God" is worth any less than their belief in such, and vice versa?

It's all about personal tendencies toward finding one's own way.  You thank yourself, but quite frankly, those who thank a "god" are doing the exact same thing you are doing, just in a more cognitively visual way that is easier for them to connect with based on their own unique perspective as an individual.

[AHP84]

I often wonder if any "evidence," scientific, supernatural, circumstancial, physical, whatever its form, would truly ever convince you that God exists. I honestly think you would refuse to accept His existence, even if the most miraculous, inexplicable thing happened to you.

I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything here, but like Jordy, I agree that you just see your faith and strength differently than many people. Nothing wrong with that. But you always seem so quick to antagonize people who claim to be Christian. So what if they are. Why does it always seem to stick in your craw?

I personally really like a lot of what you have to say, even if I don't agree with it. You're very witty, intelligent, and strong-willed. But when you get antagonistic towards people for expressing an opinion based on Christianity, I just don't get that. Why do you get so offended?

I'm not going to try to "prove" God or my faith to you. That's something you have to seek on your own if you choose. But please, don't ask people to "show" you the proof you want if you're not willing to accept any of it, but rather mock their faith and antagonize them.

[barn babe]

"You have strong faith within yourself; you don't project that faith into a visual image of another "God" in your mind.   Others do.  I have to wonder if it has more to do with the way an individual's own mind is wired, such as different learning styles like visual vs. auditory vs. kinesthetic/tactile.  They "see" their faith/strength differently than you see yours."

I don’t believe in “faith.” I’m sorry to disappoint, but you are making a huge leap here about my thinking processes (or in the case of you and your faith, the lack of thinking processes).  I don’t operate on faith in any sphere of my life. Why? Because it’s magical thinking. I don’t subscribe to any forms of magical thinking. I operate on a science-based reasoned-based platform that excludes, by definition, any faith-based practices.  

Your  above paragraph indicates you are trying to reason about faith with the language of science. It won't  work so don't even go there. I laughed  after I read that paragraph. "Kinesthetic, auditory, visual, wired." You're out of your league here. Don't even try.  It makes you look ridiculous.  Science doesn't honor faith at any level. You are trying to give us "reasoned" explanations for believing  in things that  can't be proven, i.e., faith.

To be blunt, I have absolutely no tolerance for faith based knowledge. I would not stake my life on someone else’s faith-based evidence to insure my, or anyone’s, well being.

I read about a study in which groups of very sick individuals, possibly cancer, possibly life-threatening, were researched. One group was told that others outside the group were “praying” for them to get well and be healed. The other group was not told any such thing. Which group fared worse in their outcomes from their illnesses? The group which was told people were praying for them.

The idea that faith can give comfort to those of you who hold such views is a SUBJECTIVE reality which has never really been put to a comparison test over generations. The obvious reason for this is because living without faith, and the study thereof, is rather new.  

Science cannot be tolerant of faith based claims. I go where the science leads, remaining open enough to allow for change, no matter how cherished the evidence. Science says nothing of others' “faith.” It can shed light on beliefs and ritual, but no one that I know who investigates belief scientifically would take any belief on faith.

"Neither side can really be called "right" or "wrong" because if the result is a sense of self-fulfillment throughout life and peace at time of death, who's to say your lack of belief in a "God" is worth any less than their belief in such, and vice versa?"

This is horsesh*t. The reason there is a “right” and wrong here is because religion has now infiltrated our government practices and policies, to the detriment of millions of people. We’ve got a fanatic in the White House who says his decision to invade Iraq was made based on what his “god” told him, and he knows his “god” is right. We don’t want these peole in positions of power. (I’m going to leave aside, for the moment, the argument that he invaded Iraq at the behest of his cronies to plunder the oil, which is of course the more plausible argument.)

This is the biggest problem with the faith-based lunacy – the proselytizing. Wanting to force their dogma down everybody’s throats. There’s no live and let live with most Xtianism. They want the 10 Commandments in our  Constitution. They want to make it illegal to obtain an abortion, or to obtain birth control. They want to throw homosexuals in jail, or worse.

Suffice to say, that sh*t don’t sit well with me. At all. So you go right ahead and practice your “faith-based” whatever it is, but once you start wanting the rest of us to get in line, you can shove it up you’re a**. I’m not a follower of this cr*p and I never will be.

”It's all about personal tendencies toward finding one's own way.  You thank yourself, but quite frankly, those who thank a "god" are doing the exact same thing you are doing, just in a more cognitively visual way that is easier for them to connect with based on their own unique perspective as an individual.”

Using scientific language to rationalize faith is ludicrous. You're doing it again.  A cognitively visual way? You are implying that your “god” can be seen. What else could “cognitively visual” mean?  Seen by whom? Not by me. I’ve never seen this old white dude with the flowing robes,or whatever he looks like. I would actually argue that using faith-based ways of thinking and problem-solving are not a strength, but rather a weakness, since that individual feels the need to rely on outside “guidance” rather than using their own rational thinking processes and the knowledge and information available to us that was brought to us by reason and science to come to conclusions about their issues and problems.

Actually, I think as science has progressed through the centuries and we find out more and more through the scientific method, people have moved away from religion.  It’s probably rare that you find somebody who thinks “god” really is some old white dude in a robe and scraggly beard. Most people have “moved” past this. That’s progress. Most folks now say “no I can’t prove it, but I don’t have to. It’s not a being out there, it’s just a “feeling.”  But it's still a feeling that can’t be scientifically explained. That’s the problem.

But that is progress. Do you believe god is some old white guy?  I guess that one’s SO yesterday unless you are an Xtian fundie apologist. Maybe they're the last ones who actually believe in the "bearded matriarch" fable.

Somebody up above mentioned “gut feelings.” Same b.s. here. "Gut feelings" are nothing but faith-based beliefs. I don’t have  a “gut feeling” that my partner loves me. I have solid evidence of it – his behaviors, his actions, his touch, his words, when he looks at me, the things he says. Love is not a “feeling” in this sense. It is the culmination of behaviors, actions, and words that give me an  objective basis on which to say, yes, he cares about me. He has SHOWN  it.

So faith has no place in my life. And contrary to what some of you may believe, those of us who are skeptical of everything faith-based lead very productive, loving, healthy, happy, and intellectually curious lives (I would say more intellectually curious than the faith-struck [see hatrick's posts here for confirmation of this last point]).  

[Jordy]

Oh, and regarding this statement:

"(or in the case of you and your faith, the lack of thinking processes)."

Talk about HUGE LEAPS.  Never once have I mentioned god or Christianity on these boards, or why I truly think personally of those subjects.

In fact, I don't believe in god.

[Jordy]

Barn Babe, why do you have to be so insulting and demeaning in your responses?  "Out of my league" when talking about scientific reasonings for why some feel faith?  That's not an unheard of concept, and yes, I HAVE researched it.  And no, I am not spending an afternoon outlining a dissertation on the subject.  But why you always have to take such degrading, insulting tones in your post is a question for the ages.  

And you make some pretty strong assumptions, like I am defending faith, when in reality I'm just looking for new, intriguing ways to explain it.  I'm not the first, and I won't be the last.

But do I believe in "God?"  Nah, can't say that I do.  Sorry to burst your condescending bubble.

"Using scientific language to rationalize faith is ludicrous. You're doing it again.  A cognitively visual way? You are implying that your “god” can be seen. What else could “cognitively visual” mean?  Seen by whom? Not by me. I’ve never seen this old white dude with the flowing robes,or whatever he looks like. I would actually argue that using faith-based ways of thinking and problem-solving are not a strength, but rather a weakness, since that individual feels the need to rely on outside “guidance” rather than using their own rational thinking processes and the knowledge and information available to us that was brought to us by reason and science to come to conclusions about their issues and problems."

Again, I have to ask, what makes you think it's based on different functioning to project faith onto a "god" rather than "yourself."  Essentially, you're saying everyone has to think EXACTLY the same way you do, otherwise they are wrong in how they approach their lives.  If that person uses faith in a "god" to get through the tough times, and succeeds, how can that success be viewed as less worthy of respect than yours?

[barn babe]

Did I mistake you for a fundie here? Sorry. I seem to recall you were in the pro-criminalization camp on abortion. It's unusual to see a pro-crim person who doesn't walk the fundie line. Must have been somebody else. I don't keep track of who's who around here. I guess the only one I'm sure is a fundie is ACHE. That one I remember. The others "I just can't recall," as Gonzo would say.

About the brain wiring and faith belief systems, you can't "rationalize" it by saying we are wired that way. Faith is a belief system. By definition, that means it came about with the onset of language and human culture as people tried to give meaning to stuff they couldn't explain. That means it's learned and not innate. Are you following here? We were not wired evolutionarily  to have belief systems. That came later.

Of course, if you don't believe in evolution, this line of reasoning won't work for you. You'll have to look to Noah's Ark, or the 6,000-year-old man, or Mary getting bagged in the haystack,  or whatever these people believe happened in the "spontaneous" arising of humankind.  

[barn babe]

"In fact, I don't believe in god."

Well, keep your beliefs away from "hatrick." Atheist agenda, and all. :D

[AHP84]

Wow, me a "fundie."

All I can say I've made in donations to Christianity is my tithes and offerings to my church, but never to any agenda-based group. What a judgment call!

Other donations I make are to animal shelters and St. Jude's Children's Hospital. But donations or "funds" to organizations with agendas that claim to be Christian, no, I don't "fund" them, because I don't trust them, quite frankly, to represent true Christianity. I don't know why I even care enough to explain myself to you, but I feel I should defend myself. Please don't categorize me again.

[pertykitty]

well whatever my dreams meant or didnt mean, i will keep some of them as an insight as to what was to come.  some of my dreams are so specific, that you cant say there is no possible way it was a preview of what was to come.  this goes beyond a "faith" maybe there is a scientific reason for it, maybe there is a reason nobody can define, yet.  im sure there are many doors still locked that will be opened in the future.  my son is about to turn 9. there are times he gets these weird "feelings" like something is going to happen. i have no clue, maybe its a wish for that new star wars toy lol.  the dream  i had before my father died is very special to me, whether it meant nothing or it meant something, i am going to hold on to that.  what about the indians and their visions? is that something to mock at as well? is it possible that it was real, and that because we dont understand it we say it has to be lies? point being that sometimes you have to just believe.  however if you dont want to that is fine, but dont bash those that want to.  

[barn babe]

"Wow, me a "fundie."

All I can say I've made in donations to Christianity is my tithes and offerings to my church, but never to any agenda-based group. What a judgment call!

Other donations I make are to animal shelters and St. Jude's Children's Hospital. But donations or "funds" to organizations with agendas that claim to be Christian, no, I don't "fund" them, because I don't trust them, quite frankly, to represent true Christianity. I don't know why I even care enough to explain myself to you, but I feel I should defend myself. Please don't categorize me again."

Um, ACHE, "fundie" means fundamentalist. As in fundamentalist Xtian.  It has nothing to do with donating or "funding" anything (although these people appear to be funding movements that have changed and continue to change secular government policy in their favor).

Well, sorry, but your church IS an "agenda-based" group. By definition. Christianity itself does have an "agenda." Don't kid yourself here. If your church has no "agenda," it would be the first one in the history of Xtianism to be such.

[AHP84]

Okay, point taken.

I sometimes get confused when you post such long spiels and say "Xtian this," "fundie that," and misogynistic people blah, blah, blah, and then carry on and on and on about political movements and mindsets and agendas, etc. etc.
Really, you can get going and elaborate in circles. I have yet to get a valid point that makes sense from you when you go on these rants. Most of the time, it's basically reading the same stuff from you, thread after thread.

I like your stuff when you don't throw in all your political biases, mockery and insults. You seem to be the person who starts almost all these little debates, if you will, by throwing in mockery, insults, and degradations when things don't represent your personal opinion or political beliefs. Then people get defensive. Honestly, no one cares about your political beliefs or how you represent yourself, but the mockery, insults, and accusations get to people.

I just don't get why you're so very easily offended or threatened by *anything* faith-based. Really, why do you care what people post *in their opinion* if it doesn't affect you, or if you're not the OP?

[mayflowers]

You didn't disappoint me.  You are a true devil's advocate.  It's really amusing to read your posts.  Sometimes you make sense and sometimes you don't.  I can't decide which is funnier.  Wow.  

[April2]

Do I believe in the tooth fairy or unicorns? Now that's just plain silliness. I can't believe you said that. The Bible is an accurate historical book. They do have proof of the accounts in the Bible really happening. They do have proof of the kings and even Jesus having lived during that time and that he even was crucified on a cross. They have proof of the cities, etc. mentioned in the Bible. Do I believe God is a "white dude with flowing robes"? No, He is a spirit. He has no form.
As for making fun of my mom for the dreams she's had, I bet you wouldn't like it or believe it if I told you she had a miracle happen that defies medical reasoning. They cannot understand it. I won't go into detail about it because it would just give you another opportunity to scorn and laugh at something that you just don't understand. God has used her to touch many, many people.

I don't know where you get your facts, either. You said most people are now turning away from religion. I actually believe you can believe in science and religion. I believe like many Christian scientists that they can go hand in hand.

I have a challenge for you. You seem like a very inteligent lady. Inteligent people are not closed minded. They are always willing to learn new things. They are curious. You obviously have a real hatred towards those who believe in God, but you don't seem to know much about Christianity or any religion for that matter. I would think you would want to know your enemy better so you can be better armed to back up your arguments. You've only chosen a handful of Christian people to lump all Christians together. That doesn't seem very smart to me. No one ever said just because we believe in God that we are therefore perfect, nor are we babbling idiots as you seem to think. My challenge to you is to do a study of Christianity and Judiasm and the roots of their beliefs. And read "The Case For A Creator" by Lee Strobel. Lee Strobel has a journalism degree and a Master of Studies in Law degree from Yale Law School. He was an award winning legal editor of the Chicago Tribune and an atheist until 1981. He set out to disprove God and who Jesus said he was. He interviewed some very highly respectable scientists and others, Christians and non-Christians, he didn't care. He interviewed them for their scientific knowledge. These weren't narrow minded fundamentalists, backwoods hicks either. These were respected world class scientists like Nobel nominee Henry F. Shaefer, the third most cited chemist in the world; James Tour of Rice University's Center for Nanoscale Science and Technology; and Fred Figworth, professor of cellular and molecular physiology at Yale Graduate School. They are just a handful who are highly sceptical of Darwinisms evolution theories. He interviewed Jonathan Wells who serves as a senior fellow with the Institutes Center for Science and Culture. His undergraduate degree from the University of California at Berkeley was in geology and physics, with a minor in biology. He receieved a doctorate in molecular and cell biology from Berkeley, where he focused primarily on vertebrate embryology and evolution and he also used to be an atheist until he started finding holes in Darwinism's evolution theories. I'm telling you all this so that you can see that it's not just dumb hicks that believe in a God or creator. This book is very well written without giving a one sided view. Lee Strobel is careful to give write down the others view points without interjecting his, as any good journalist would do. My challenge to you is to read this book (unless you're scared that it might put doubt in your mind about your own beliefs?) and let me know what you think. Are you really open minded enough to do it? Or will you refuse because you're scared it might shed some light on an area you don't want exposed? I would think if you're cofident enough in your own beliefs that you wouldn't have a problem with it. You see, even though I'm a Christian, I have no problem studing other religions and even enjoy doing so. I'm not so narrow minded that I refuse to research all beliefs. Are you open minded enough to admit that you may not know everything? That there is an even remote possibility in an outside force that we don't fully understand? If not, then you disappoint me. I hope you are up to the challenge. I look forward to hearing back from you.

[spade22]

Just curious here, but what are your views on how the universe came about?????

[AHP84]

Also by Lee Strobel:
"The Case for Faith" and "The Case for Christ."

As April2 pointed out, Strobel's intent as a once adamant atheist was to set out to disprove God by writing these books. He's interviewed some of the world's most well-known intellectuals, from scientists to historians and archaeologists, psychologists, lawyers, theologians, and many more. And most of the people he interviewed were not Christians nor did they claim to be. Strobel avoided interviewing too many Christians because he knew the answers they'd give and what they'd say.
I'd also be curious to know what you think about these books--all three of them or even just one. That is, if you've got the guts to pick up one of the books and actually read it.
Give yourself some *real* debating power against us Christians by educating yourself a little more about the beliefs, and maybe you'll gain a little more respect, seeing as we won't be hearing the same old rants about "mythological creatures," "magical thinking," and "Xtianism."
Seriously, I think we'd all appreciate hearing something new from you in a debate. Something that's actually *worth* reading and not just skimming over.

[barn babe]

"Or will you refuse because you're scared it might shed some light on an area you don't want exposed?"

"Scared" isn't the word here that I would use. What would scare me about anything you folks are saying you believe?  What area would I not want "exposed?" The area of faith-based fantasy? Go ahead - expose away. The faith and belief systems you people ascribe to CAN'T BE PROVEN. But you continue to believe in them. That's the problem here. Science is science. Facts are facts.  What you've got is zilch. Nada. Untestable fantasies.

" I would think if you're confident enough in your own beliefs that you wouldn't have a problem with it."

My own beliefs. Jeebus, listen  to yourself. My own beliefs. It's so wonderful how you've managed to relativize things here. These are not "my beliefs."  There is ONE TRUTH. Get it? The world does not work by reshaping itself to whatever way the speaker believes it should be. There. Is. One. Truth. One.

What makes up the truth? Axioms. Facts. It doesn't need to be believed to be true. Are you getting it yet? You don't have to believe it  - it's still true.

I think it's absolutely bizarre how those who ascribe to faith have learned to severely blur the line between faith and fact so they can pretend both are equal ways of knowing something. It's all part of their belief that they "know" some "higher truth."

This meme is really common. And it's always associated with the same lame examples. Here's one: "You have  faith that the sun will rise." The sun appears to come up whether I believe it will or not. Actually, the sun rising is an illusion because the earth actually rotates towards the sun. It  doesn't even really "rise." It appears depending on where the earth is in its rotation. There's no faith involved here. Is there? Did you want to refute this for me with your "faith?"

My belief. Jeebus, that's really lame. Yeah, one of my "beliefs" is that 2+2=4. You want to argue with me about that? Because you'd be wrong. It's true ALL. THE. TIME. Always. How about if I said my belief is that 2+2=16? How would you respond? There isn't your "truth" and my "truth." There is only one truth. And that truth is  FACTS.

" You see, even though I'm a Christian, I have no problem studing (sic) other religions and even enjoy doing so. I'm not so narrow minded that I refuse to research all beliefs. Are you open minded enough to admit that you may not know everything? That there is an even remote possibility in an outside force that we don't fully understand?"

Why don't you set up some experiments to prove the existence of  "outside forces, "other beliefs," and "other religions."  No problem. Test away.  Until then, I'm not a believer in faith-based magic. What you refuse to acknowledge is the reasonableness of skepticism about your own belief system. I don't have a belief system. I rely on evidence-based facts in living my life.

If faith were really worthwhile, why do religionists need to manipulate people and preach and make promises and threats to inculcate people? No religionist  ever answers this question. I mean, wouldn't we all want to get a piece of the action if it really offered what it claimed to offer? Morality, compassion - aren't these the cornerstones of your "faith?"  If they are, why wouldn't we all want your faith, instead of fleeing from it?  And why does something so "all-powerful" as your god need spokespeople? I mean, he's god, for gawdssakes, right?

What's wrong with people wanting proof before believing things willy nilly? Skepticism is more of an asset than faith, IMO.  The great thing about facts is that they are going to be true even if you refuse to accept them. There is absolutely NO evidence for the magical invisible and immeasurable entities you claim are responsible for what we observe. None. And science is the same for everybody. It doesn't matter what you "believe." It doesn't matter if you believe it or not. Facts are facts. I hate to pound away at the same kindergarten-level point, but it gets back to 2+2=4. That's not a belief. It's a fact.

If I learned about a new religion in which snakes talked, wouldn't you say that was laughable? A religion that was based on flying monkeys carrying rose petals? Wouldn't you just laugh if somebody told you that's what their "religion" was all about? So why is your faith the one "true" faith? The problem is you people want to keep moving the goal posts. And when that doesn't work for you (because it simply can't and it doesn't, over and over again), you want to pretend that facts are "faith." Facts are "my beliefs." Wrong. Facts are facts. 2+2=4. Period. Even with all of the semantics and the game playing and the ridiculous promises of eternal glory if you refuse to believe it.

"If not, then you disappoint me. I hope you are up to the challenge. I look forward to hearing back from you."

I don't need to be patronized, but thanks anyway. I have no plans to read about Christian apologists like Strobel. Unless he is discussing experiments that he's set up or knows about that will help him prove the existence of his faith. But he didn't do that, did he? No. He just "decided" to start believing one day. For whatever reason. Why would I care who Strobel got on board to agree to his wacky religious ideas? I wouldn't  care if it's the president of Harvard or the head of the Quantum Physics Department at Berkeley. If they believe in "higher powers" and divine knowledge, they've got a screw loose.

You've made it clear from your remarks that you base your beliefs on authority coming from others, through your religionist fantasies.  No self-respecting individual does that. Truth comes from the authority of evidence. Try using your head next time instead of somebody else's.

I was having an interesting conversation with my partner a few days ago. We were talking about the b.s. of creationism and all that ID garbage. The "debate" about creationism  and evolution. There is only one way it can go, because only one theory can survive. So creationism and evolution will be fought in the arena of ideas, and only one will survive.

Creationism will lose. It is losing, as a matter of fact. The harder that the creationists and religionists and wackos push for creationism, the more they challenge, the faster evolution will wind up being accepted. That's how it works. Because evolution can be proven. Has been proven. 150 years of fact-finding. It's a done deal. And creationists can't use logic and reason and testable experiments to prove their arguments.

Religionists are like people who believe in the earth being flat. Same thing. It's like you guys stay stuck in your outdated fantasies and magical belief systems, while the grownups move on down the road and discuss  amazing and interesting stuff like how scientists now believe hippos are more related to whales than land mammals; or how the physicists have finally pinpointed the age of the universe, at 13.6 billion years, and every physicist, scientist, astronomer, and researcher is on board with this figure; or that there are areas of the brain that can be damaged and affect a person's morality.

The truth is simple when you don't  believe in magic. The truth will remain even when there's nobody around to believe it.

[mayflowers]

I think somebody didn't get enough hugs when she was growing up.

[jambam]

LOL Mayflowers!  I was thinking the SAME thing, was about to post something similar in fact!  HA HA!  Been reading her rants for ages, and finally felt compelled to post for the first time.

Not much of a believer myself, and barn babe's position, in and of itself, is fine, but there's definitely some kind of mentally unbalanced quality to her obsessive need to slam down others in a personal, insulting way.  She must be a joy to know in real life.  Hardly a liberal.  She's more ignorant, close-minded, prejudiced, arrogant and demeaning than any hard-core conservative I've ever known.  I sent this link, in fact, to a few liberal friends, and the general consensus was, beliefs or not, that so-called babe is WHACKED!

barn babe, I recommend you talk to your shrink about upping the meds a bit, okay?