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Psychiatric complications - thyroid involvement?
My 20 year old daughter was diagnosed and treated by radioiodine ablation for Grave's disease 3 years ago. Within the last 6 weeks she has been in a psychiatric hospital twice, has shown some thyroid fluctuation in blood tests, and has been diagnosed with major depression, eating disorder, and borderline personalilty disorder. The first hospitalization was involuntary in Philadelphia (where she attends college) due to her taking a non-toxic dose of Motrin, but she checked herself into a local psychiatric hospital once she got home here in Milwaukee, WI.
My husband and I agree with the depression and eating disorder labels, but we have doubts about the borderline diagnosis. To make matters more complicated, our daughter reacted a bit when my husband and I expressed some doubts about the borderline finding, and she withdrew her permission for us to be involved with her health information and treatment decisions. Now the docs want to use electroshock therapy on our daughter! I have read that this treatment has had a comeback in the last 25 years, but it still carries some risks. The treatment forces your body into a grand mal seizure and can affect memory, cognitive function, and learning in the short term.
Our daughter has displayed symptoms of both mild hyperthyroid and extreme hypothyroid states over the past several months, sometimes even fluctuating over a few hours or days. This fluctuation has also shown up on thyroid blood tests both in Philadelphia and Milwaukee, but so far she has not had a full thyroid panel done. I wish I had numbers to share, but I did not write them down when we had a meeting because I thought I would be allowed to get copies. When our daughter got a blood test in early April in Philly, her doc commented to her that she was "hyperthyroid again" and lowered her levothyroxine from .150 mg. to .125 mg. I am wondering if this was what triggered her big emotional reaction that landed her in the first psychiatric hospital. The current psychiatric hospital has an endocrine doc on staff who has done SOME thyroid blood tests and is trying to stablize our daughter's correct thyroid dosage, but they have commented that it would be best if an endocrine specialist direct the correct tests (which might mean more than just tests for the thyroid).
Here is my question: does it make good medical sense for us to continue to strongly encourage our daughter to seek a second opinion with an endocrine physician who specializes in thyroid disorders (or better yet, a neuroendocrinologist if we can find one in our area), or should we just go along with the electroshock treatments our daughter's docs are recommending? I am guessing that they are looking at this treatment because the depression symptoms continue to fluctuate in and out, even after about 5 weeks on Celexa. Of course, these symptoms may be fluctuating precisely BECAUSE there is a thyroid imbalance (perhaps hashitoxicosis?)! We DO have the names of a couple of endocrine docs in the area who do a lot of work with thyroid issues. I really appreciate any comments you could give us on this.
My husband and I agree with the depression and eating disorder labels, but we have doubts about the borderline diagnosis. To make matters more complicated, our daughter reacted a bit when my husband and I expressed some doubts about the borderline finding, and she withdrew her permission for us to be involved with her health information and treatment decisions. Now the docs want to use electroshock therapy on our daughter! I have read that this treatment has had a comeback in the last 25 years, but it still carries some risks. The treatment forces your body into a grand mal seizure and can affect memory, cognitive function, and learning in the short term.
Our daughter has displayed symptoms of both mild hyperthyroid and extreme hypothyroid states over the past several months, sometimes even fluctuating over a few hours or days. This fluctuation has also shown up on thyroid blood tests both in Philadelphia and Milwaukee, but so far she has not had a full thyroid panel done. I wish I had numbers to share, but I did not write them down when we had a meeting because I thought I would be allowed to get copies. When our daughter got a blood test in early April in Philly, her doc commented to her that she was "hyperthyroid again" and lowered her levothyroxine from .150 mg. to .125 mg. I am wondering if this was what triggered her big emotional reaction that landed her in the first psychiatric hospital. The current psychiatric hospital has an endocrine doc on staff who has done SOME thyroid blood tests and is trying to stablize our daughter's correct thyroid dosage, but they have commented that it would be best if an endocrine specialist direct the correct tests (which might mean more than just tests for the thyroid).
Here is my question: does it make good medical sense for us to continue to strongly encourage our daughter to seek a second opinion with an endocrine physician who specializes in thyroid disorders (or better yet, a neuroendocrinologist if we can find one in our area), or should we just go along with the electroshock treatments our daughter's docs are recommending? I am guessing that they are looking at this treatment because the depression symptoms continue to fluctuate in and out, even after about 5 weeks on Celexa. Of course, these symptoms may be fluctuating precisely BECAUSE there is a thyroid imbalance (perhaps hashitoxicosis?)! We DO have the names of a couple of endocrine docs in the area who do a lot of work with thyroid issues. I really appreciate any comments you could give us on this.
Best Answer
OMG!
I have read the posting and was horrified to think that they want to do shoock treatment on your daughter!
Do NOT let them do it.
Your poor daughter is most probably going through an unbalanced thyroid hormone levels that CAN be fixed.
My God, I feel for her as I have been where she is at with thyroid levels as many others here have.
PLEASE dont let them do electroconvulsive therapy on her.
I dont know if you can do it in the USA but you can get power of attorney for her medical needs as she is unable to manage her own health issues and the the health authorities HAVE to comply with YOUR wishes and not hers.
See if this can be done. It can be done in Australia.
Also I want to say something here......my brother in law had shock treatment which left him like a zombie and no quality of life.
I would hate to see her have this done.
My heart aches for you and your family...put a stop to the Doctors MADNESS now.
Let us know how you go.
It sounds like the RAI has not totally ablated the thyroid and also Graves antibodies flaring up. If anything I would suggest a Thyroidectomy or a 2nd dose of RAI.
I had RAI, had a Thyroidectomy and I am on 62.5mcg 5 days a week and 50mcg 2 days a week and functioning great!
Your daughter is most probably being overmedicated and is on a roller coaster ride with her levels.
I have read the posting and was horrified to think that they want to do shoock treatment on your daughter!
Do NOT let them do it.
Your poor daughter is most probably going through an unbalanced thyroid hormone levels that CAN be fixed.
My God, I feel for her as I have been where she is at with thyroid levels as many others here have.
PLEASE dont let them do electroconvulsive therapy on her.
I dont know if you can do it in the USA but you can get power of attorney for her medical needs as she is unable to manage her own health issues and the the health authorities HAVE to comply with YOUR wishes and not hers.
See if this can be done. It can be done in Australia.
Also I want to say something here......my brother in law had shock treatment which left him like a zombie and no quality of life.
I would hate to see her have this done.
My heart aches for you and your family...put a stop to the Doctors MADNESS now.
Let us know how you go.
It sounds like the RAI has not totally ablated the thyroid and also Graves antibodies flaring up. If anything I would suggest a Thyroidectomy or a 2nd dose of RAI.
I had RAI, had a Thyroidectomy and I am on 62.5mcg 5 days a week and 50mcg 2 days a week and functioning great!
Your daughter is most probably being overmedicated and is on a roller coaster ride with her levels.
I am speaking with the mother after I saw this and thank God she connected with me.
Isn't it horrifying? - I am ashamed to think she may be butched like this at a major hospital.
Everything else today I had planned is on the back burner.. this post broke my heart.
Isn't it horrifying? - I am ashamed to think she may be butched like this at a major hospital.
Everything else today I had planned is on the back burner.. this post broke my heart.
No Deb - its not Graves.... flaring... she is not converting. I bet that entirely after hearing more of this history,.
This is horrible! You have to stop this from happening to this poor child! Crazy doctors~ This mom must not allow this. As you well know, I am a mom of a child who was born without a thyroid gland. She too has issues with converting. With the right thyroid meds and levels she feels and does great! With the wrong ones, it doesn't take long when there is no thyroid function at all, for the body/brain to react! I am praying for intervention for this young lady and strength for the mother to put up one hell of a fight for her child! This should never ever happen ! This is arcaic and treatment from the stone ages! Please stop this somehow N.
I DO appreciate your comments, thoughts, and prayers! I am in contact with stella5349 who is checking out possible endocrine docs for us. I also talked to my daughter on the phone, and this electrochock therapy treatment will NOT be done in the psychiatric hospital--it is only done as an outpatient treatment, so she is OK for the moment.
I will be sure to follow up with posts about how this all goes. Right now I am thankful that my daughter granted permission for me to get copies of her labs, so I will have that to share with potential docs. As a last resort, my husband and I would borrow money from a friend or our church to get an emergency guardianship so that our daughter does not go through with this treatment. She doesn't realize how her entire endocrine system, including her pituatary, may be out of whack and cause a potentially life-threatening situation if she goes ahead with it. We want to do our best to work WITH our daughter so we don't have to do this, however. Maintaining her trust for the long term will be necessary for us to get her to the medical specialists that she needs.
I will be sure to follow up with posts about how this all goes. Right now I am thankful that my daughter granted permission for me to get copies of her labs, so I will have that to share with potential docs. As a last resort, my husband and I would borrow money from a friend or our church to get an emergency guardianship so that our daughter does not go through with this treatment. She doesn't realize how her entire endocrine system, including her pituatary, may be out of whack and cause a potentially life-threatening situation if she goes ahead with it. We want to do our best to work WITH our daughter so we don't have to do this, however. Maintaining her trust for the long term will be necessary for us to get her to the medical specialists that she needs.
I still can't message you here on MH - Are you sure I am not blocked on your end? You'll have to contact me hun - I lost my contact book.
THANK GOD YOU HAVE STEPPED IN STELLA!
As for the Doc who recommended shock treatment....plug the damn paddles onto his brain and FRY it!
Debbie my heart goes out to you but there is a solution.
You are in brilliant hands with Nikki,
Personally myself if I was in USA, I would be at that Doctors doorl.
Graves RAGE...that my excuse lol.
Phew...I feel relieved now xxxxx
As for the Doc who recommended shock treatment....plug the damn paddles onto his brain and FRY it!
Debbie my heart goes out to you but there is a solution.
You are in brilliant hands with Nikki,
Personally myself if I was in USA, I would be at that Doctors doorl.
Graves RAGE...that my excuse lol.
Phew...I feel relieved now xxxxx
OMG, you gave me the best laugh I've had all day!!! The last time I laughed that hard was when visiting my daughter the other day at the psychiatric hospital. A staff member had shown her the games closet like it was a precious treasure...we chose a game and read on the box: "The LOVE Game: A game about unconditional love when everybody wins". We all hooted for at least 5 minutes--it reminded me of the Simpson's show when Bart was in the model classroom where they played games, and, you guessed it: everybody won!!!
If you don't laugh you cry...
If you don't laugh you cry...
That my Aussie Smilerdeb - Debbie... she good for a laugh at all nutty stressful times when we are half scared outta our minds...
I hope one day I can hug her for real either in Kangaroo country or in the states.. but I will certainly have tears of joy if that ever happens for real.
Either works for me..
PS Smilerdeb - I said I have my visa all ready for me to start work with you Monday - are you scamming me out of a job now too??? lol
Luv ya!
I hope one day I can hug her for real either in Kangaroo country or in the states.. but I will certainly have tears of joy if that ever happens for real.
Either works for me..
PS Smilerdeb - I said I have my visa all ready for me to start work with you Monday - are you scamming me out of a job now too??? lol
Luv ya!
Plug the damn peddels into his brain and fry it?? - Deb - where do you come up with this stuff? - LOL - very hard and all night now for sure...
Ladies,
super good job here! Thank all the Gods you ladies are here to help Deb and her daughter.
My little sister going through a similar thing with thyroid (Hypo) likely causing psychiatric condition.... my family are pushing her very hard for appropriate diagnosis and medication.
Am so proud to be part of a board like this one!
super good job here! Thank all the Gods you ladies are here to help Deb and her daughter.
My little sister going through a similar thing with thyroid (Hypo) likely causing psychiatric condition.... my family are pushing her very hard for appropriate diagnosis and medication.
Am so proud to be part of a board like this one!
I have been through some tough personal sh@t the last 6 months and you guys have always been here for me.
I am still going through tough stuff where I have a 23 year old daughter who kicked out her partner 9 months ago and decided after 7 years that he no longers wants to be Daddy to his 5 year old son who is ADHD.
Both are going through tough times.....daughter thinks shes like Mum and tough (yeah right!) and was turning her closest away with support until lastnight hit her like a ton of bricks.This is my youngest who wanted support but wouldnt help herself...UNTIL TODAY.
Joshua (grandson) is now booked into a specialist on Monday, daughter is booked into my Docs for support and she is now taking responsibility for everything.
It has taken 9 long months to get through to her to let me help and support her but I finally got through to her today.
After 8 weeks of stress causing chronic hives and making me hypo.........she has finally realised that sometimes...just sometimes, WE ALL NEED SOME HELP.
I get mine from my thyroid family here and from my Polarbear (Rob)......who has been my Angel from day one.
I am glad I made you laugh Debbie......you will learn in time that I say it as I see it and I am as nutty as a fruitcake but love it ! lol
Stella....the job is open but no Armour allowed here lol ! Bummer! x
(But between you and me, you will meet me within the next 12 months hehehe)
And I have waited since February for this job ...10 interviewed and I got it!
Conquered the fear of driving that came back with a vengeance.
Gees I DO feel like FRUITCAKE lol
But through it all....ALL of you guys here have helped me keep my sanity.
Sally , you are an inspiration too helping other here.
I honestly wish I found this site at the beginning of the thyroid rollercoaster x
Oh and one more thing...I have ordered the paddles and the electrodes and my one mission in life will gladly be to FRY that Doctors brain lol! (Yes I am not well lol) and Graves Rage DOES exist Debbie lol...ask any graves person :)
I just thank God you found us Debbie...your daughter is one very lost confused person and I am glad you realised what was going on before it was too late.
Hugs xxxxxxxxxxx
I am still going through tough stuff where I have a 23 year old daughter who kicked out her partner 9 months ago and decided after 7 years that he no longers wants to be Daddy to his 5 year old son who is ADHD.
Both are going through tough times.....daughter thinks shes like Mum and tough (yeah right!) and was turning her closest away with support until lastnight hit her like a ton of bricks.This is my youngest who wanted support but wouldnt help herself...UNTIL TODAY.
Joshua (grandson) is now booked into a specialist on Monday, daughter is booked into my Docs for support and she is now taking responsibility for everything.
It has taken 9 long months to get through to her to let me help and support her but I finally got through to her today.
After 8 weeks of stress causing chronic hives and making me hypo.........she has finally realised that sometimes...just sometimes, WE ALL NEED SOME HELP.
I get mine from my thyroid family here and from my Polarbear (Rob)......who has been my Angel from day one.
I am glad I made you laugh Debbie......you will learn in time that I say it as I see it and I am as nutty as a fruitcake but love it ! lol
Stella....the job is open but no Armour allowed here lol ! Bummer! x
(But between you and me, you will meet me within the next 12 months hehehe)
And I have waited since February for this job ...10 interviewed and I got it!
Conquered the fear of driving that came back with a vengeance.
Gees I DO feel like FRUITCAKE lol
But through it all....ALL of you guys here have helped me keep my sanity.
Sally , you are an inspiration too helping other here.
I honestly wish I found this site at the beginning of the thyroid rollercoaster x
Oh and one more thing...I have ordered the paddles and the electrodes and my one mission in life will gladly be to FRY that Doctors brain lol! (Yes I am not well lol) and Graves Rage DOES exist Debbie lol...ask any graves person :)
I just thank God you found us Debbie...your daughter is one very lost confused person and I am glad you realised what was going on before it was too late.
Hugs xxxxxxxxxxx
Forgot to mention Stella......the requirement of the job is enema's and supositories, catheters, illium bags lol.
Ummm, you up to those surgical gloves? hehehe
Seriously I am employed now in a job I love with a passion......and decided today that NO THYROID ISSUE is going to stop me.
Dads death 4 months ago was hard but I am now ready to face that wonderful whacky world :)
Ummm, you up to those surgical gloves? hehehe
Seriously I am employed now in a job I love with a passion......and decided today that NO THYROID ISSUE is going to stop me.
Dads death 4 months ago was hard but I am now ready to face that wonderful whacky world :)
gloves up to my ears..... a no thanks now that I know details.
I think I will stick with phlebotomy.
xoxo - N :)
I think I will stick with phlebotomy.
xoxo - N :)
Now I am the one laughing here Stella lol.
I work with the Aged and Disabled .....I advanced with my studies from Aged Care/Disability Cert. III to Div. II Med Endorsed RN as it is my passion.
I work with a lot of Aged High Care Dementia but also a lot of ABI (Aquired Brain Injury) usually from car accidents.
Many think that brain injured people are 'not there'.
The same goes with those who have Alzeimers and Dementia.
But inside those frail people is someone who needs love and care.
They are still 'there'...just trapped in their own bodies.
They know what goes on around them.....they are just confused and I hope that one day..should I need that type of care that there will be someone who understands and cares.
Thats my passion in life (along with being a computer tech for 25 years and a speed camera/traffic controls programmer) lol.
No thyroid issue will starve me of my passions.
I work with the Aged and Disabled .....I advanced with my studies from Aged Care/Disability Cert. III to Div. II Med Endorsed RN as it is my passion.
I work with a lot of Aged High Care Dementia but also a lot of ABI (Aquired Brain Injury) usually from car accidents.
Many think that brain injured people are 'not there'.
The same goes with those who have Alzeimers and Dementia.
But inside those frail people is someone who needs love and care.
They are still 'there'...just trapped in their own bodies.
They know what goes on around them.....they are just confused and I hope that one day..should I need that type of care that there will be someone who understands and cares.
Thats my passion in life (along with being a computer tech for 25 years and a speed camera/traffic controls programmer) lol.
No thyroid issue will starve me of my passions.
Then you may want to talk to the original poster Debbie here my friend. After a conversation she told me what she is doing for Alzeimer's and Dementia patients' families and her idea and carreer path ROCKS!!!
You definately need to hook up and talk about what she does! And...... she may be interested in putting her skills to work in Aussieland with you!
You definately need to hook up and talk about what she does! And...... she may be interested in putting her skills to work in Aussieland with you!
reference material below to read through. You should get through these before going today. I feel these are valid sources for them to terminate shock therapy treatment - until her thyroid case is verified accurately by someone FINALLY with brains!!
http://www.jfponline.com/Pages.asp?AID=4545 ( General info here )
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/118562-overview ( THIS ONE IS HUGE ON YOUR DEFENSE TO STOP THIS PROCEDURE)
http://www.schizophrenia.com/sznews/archives/004348.html ( NON Profit - Schizophrenia organization data base) - See the title and opening here. IF the Free T3 is 20% in low marks on labs then this is a marker. SHE DIDN'T HAVE THE FREE T3 TEST - SO THEY CAN'T DO SHOCK TREATMENT EITHER!
http://www.orthomolecular.org/library/jom/2001/pdf/2001-v16n04-p205.pdf - (New England Journal of Medicine reference) -
they can't agrue with that one MOST definately will hault them on Free T3 - unknown
Herre below is the AACE info we discussed. By ruling with FDA backing this new TSH of 3.0 was established... See article - She is TWICE over the limit!
http://www.aace.com/pub/positionstatements/subclinical.php
Ineffectiveness of T4 Synthroid only with RAI patients and/or low thyroid w/ conversion problems
http://endocrine-disorders.suite101.com/article.cfm/why_isnt_my_thyroxine_working
Please read this and print before you go get her.
http://www.jfponline.com/Pages.asp?AID=4545 ( General info here )
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/118562-overview ( THIS ONE IS HUGE ON YOUR DEFENSE TO STOP THIS PROCEDURE)
http://www.schizophrenia.com/sznews/archives/004348.html ( NON Profit - Schizophrenia organization data base) - See the title and opening here. IF the Free T3 is 20% in low marks on labs then this is a marker. SHE DIDN'T HAVE THE FREE T3 TEST - SO THEY CAN'T DO SHOCK TREATMENT EITHER!
http://www.orthomolecular.org/library/jom/2001/pdf/2001-v16n04-p205.pdf - (New England Journal of Medicine reference) -
they can't agrue with that one MOST definately will hault them on Free T3 - unknown
Herre below is the AACE info we discussed. By ruling with FDA backing this new TSH of 3.0 was established... See article - She is TWICE over the limit!
http://www.aace.com/pub/positionstatements/subclinical.php
Ineffectiveness of T4 Synthroid only with RAI patients and/or low thyroid w/ conversion problems
http://endocrine-disorders.suite101.com/article.cfm/why_isnt_my_thyroxine_working
Please read this and print before you go get her.
I like this drug interaction article on Levothyroxine better below. Use this in place of endo suite101. In my opinion this is better
http://www.rxlist.com/synthroid-drug.htm
Hits all the key interactions we spoke about.
http://www.rxlist.com/synthroid-drug.htm
Hits all the key interactions we spoke about.
Thyroid disorder can cause much more than what you described ,
the rule is to balance the thyroid PROPERLY ,and then treating any other symptom that remain ,by properly,I mean that she need to be on the exact correct dose for her for enough time to start healing ,50 mcg/week less or more and she remain sick.
A good idea also is to see a neurologist ,to determine whether it is hashimoto encephalopathy .
Some times the levothyroxine can cause psychiatric side effects .
When they decided to treat my symptoms as if they where not related to the hashimoto I have ,they gave me a steroid shock and they almost killed me ,so I don't think it's a good idea to treat her symptoms while she still have hormonal disorder ,not to talk about electric shocks !!!
I also think this is something that they don't use anymore !???
best wishes ,
the rule is to balance the thyroid PROPERLY ,and then treating any other symptom that remain ,by properly,I mean that she need to be on the exact correct dose for her for enough time to start healing ,50 mcg/week less or more and she remain sick.
A good idea also is to see a neurologist ,to determine whether it is hashimoto encephalopathy .
Some times the levothyroxine can cause psychiatric side effects .
When they decided to treat my symptoms as if they where not related to the hashimoto I have ,they gave me a steroid shock and they almost killed me ,so I don't think it's a good idea to treat her symptoms while she still have hormonal disorder ,not to talk about electric shocks !!!
I also think this is something that they don't use anymore !???
best wishes ,
No Hashi6 - shock therapy is on the rise... I spoke to many doctors about this particular situation and its very hamful to have done with hormonal disorders presenting themselves and ignored and then followed through .....causing more harm - but it is being used more widely in recent years again for many things.
Another quick fix that medical facilities are bringing back with huge repercussions. It was almost entirely eliminated do to several heafty lawsuits in the 1970's and not doing it was protecting doctors more avoiding that - than using it and it being good. Now with alzheimers and seizures on the rise - somehow it surfaced back as something to experiment and entertain with again....
mark my words - it will get shut down quickly as soon as malpractice lawsuits get rolling in again. I for one will fight the system to use this on any thyroid hormone patient regardless of their need for treatment. Its sucidal.
This 20 yrs old sounds entirely / mentally disabled at this time due to a simple Free T3 and Free T4 test not being done - I G N O R E D .... and it shows clearly on her lab ignorance on this neglect is fact! .
Her TSH is high. I don't know how much worse Hashi6 it could get if you put yourself in the emotional distress and illness this poor girl and family is in since she was 17 yrs old. Even younger without proper Dx.s and left to do it all alone untreated then before the real hell presently has come on.
She will be properly lab tested and treated at her next office visit with an excellent thyroid doctor in Milwaukee. Everything is working out after all this hard work these last 2 days since Debbie posted her story.
You can't predict ANY dosage or treatment at this time regardless - she has terrible / TERRIBLE labs done
i.e. TSHi and FT3i - which should be banned completely for thyroid results and that's how shock therapy is being followed on w/ her emotional swings..
Hashi6 - actually read this link
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/118562-overview
This is whats on the plate for unique thyroid issues possibly happening with this poor girl. 2 out of the other doctors I spoke to suggested this above as I thought in theory too and I jumped the link here to see details and gave it to mom. I doubt Hashi's is soley responsibile here.
Hypo-psychosis and Med Induced psychosis are 2 seperate chemical imbalances. Her tests prove more undertreated and conversion issues more than Synthroid toxcity. The doctor she is seeing Tuesday leans on conversion and low thyroid for her mental issues as do other professionals involved in this intervention assistance.
However, Thanks for your feedback. Her daughter will be recieving excellent care come Tuesday.
Another quick fix that medical facilities are bringing back with huge repercussions. It was almost entirely eliminated do to several heafty lawsuits in the 1970's and not doing it was protecting doctors more avoiding that - than using it and it being good. Now with alzheimers and seizures on the rise - somehow it surfaced back as something to experiment and entertain with again....
mark my words - it will get shut down quickly as soon as malpractice lawsuits get rolling in again. I for one will fight the system to use this on any thyroid hormone patient regardless of their need for treatment. Its sucidal.
This 20 yrs old sounds entirely / mentally disabled at this time due to a simple Free T3 and Free T4 test not being done - I G N O R E D .... and it shows clearly on her lab ignorance on this neglect is fact! .
Her TSH is high. I don't know how much worse Hashi6 it could get if you put yourself in the emotional distress and illness this poor girl and family is in since she was 17 yrs old. Even younger without proper Dx.s and left to do it all alone untreated then before the real hell presently has come on.
She will be properly lab tested and treated at her next office visit with an excellent thyroid doctor in Milwaukee. Everything is working out after all this hard work these last 2 days since Debbie posted her story.
You can't predict ANY dosage or treatment at this time regardless - she has terrible / TERRIBLE labs done
i.e. TSHi and FT3i - which should be banned completely for thyroid results and that's how shock therapy is being followed on w/ her emotional swings..
Hashi6 - actually read this link
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/118562-overview
This is whats on the plate for unique thyroid issues possibly happening with this poor girl. 2 out of the other doctors I spoke to suggested this above as I thought in theory too and I jumped the link here to see details and gave it to mom. I doubt Hashi's is soley responsibile here.
Hypo-psychosis and Med Induced psychosis are 2 seperate chemical imbalances. Her tests prove more undertreated and conversion issues more than Synthroid toxcity. The doctor she is seeing Tuesday leans on conversion and low thyroid for her mental issues as do other professionals involved in this intervention assistance.
However, Thanks for your feedback. Her daughter will be recieving excellent care come Tuesday.
Its not the thyroid medication that CAUSES psychiatric problems...it is lack of it or too much and the level of thyroid hormones that cause it.
I am sorry but I disagree with you there 6hashi.
Everybody is different in regards to dosage in medication.
I would have to be one who is on one of the lowest doses because my body just converts TOO FAST and reacts against higher doses.
I would say that was most probably the same in your case but it is not the T4 med that causes psychiatric problems.
It is lack of it, too much medication and/or unbalanced hormone levels.
For example....
In the case of Graves disease...if your FT4 is as they say NORMAL (and this is a wide span) and your FT3 HIGH, then obviously you are going to get a pounding heart as the FT3 regulates the organs especially the heart.
UNtreated with anti-thyroid meds, the person will go into thyroid storm (atrial fibrillation).
With Graves, it is hard to regulate the doses as the antibodies as they are continuously attacking the thyroid causing these high levels.
Most Doctors will agree that it is better for someone with Graves to be borderline HYPO than HYPER.
And in 99% of the cases of Graves...the thyroid is ablated so that Docs CAN regulate the levels with medicatications or the paerson will just continue being on a rollercoaster see-saw of hyper to hypo and vice versa.
There is a lot of similarities to HASHI and GRAVES symptoms but in the disease itself.....they are very different.
The symptoms of anxiety , depression, anxiety...these are symptoms of BOTH Hyper and Hypo but with Hashis patients....there is a tendancy to try and let the thyroid durn ITSELF out.
In the case of Graves...the Doctors tend to intervene if anti-thyroid meds dont work as hyperthyroidism and Graves can kill you with Atrial fibrillation.
With Hashi's if medication overdose is given...the meds are just withdrawn for a few days.
With Graves, its the hormones that cause the problems and the only way to withdraw them is ablation or in most cases adding an anti-thyroid med and beta blocker.
If you experienced a steroid shock this wouldve been an allergic reaction to a prednisolone type medication. Nothing whatsover to do with thyroid medication.
Most people have alergies to medications.
But this ladies daughter is in desperate need of ALL the tests done (which Docs havent done) to prove that she has Graves Disease and that the antibodies and levels are causing the psychiatric disorders NOT the meds.
Dont you think it is strange that I, as a Graves patient...suffered with Agoraphobia for 26 years (couldnt go further than 10 minutes away from home) and then as soon as RAI was done , I beat that Agoraphobia?
26 years of having to work from home because of an illness they couldnt pick up but put down to post traumatic stress disorder?
I also experienced 3 episodes of thyroid storm in 2 weeks causing atrial fibrillation and on the 3rd episode , I had to have paddles put on to correct the rythm of the heart and give it a normal heartbeat.
Have I had this since RAI and TT of the thyroid?
NO....not once.
Only because if I do go med induced hyper I can stop the meds for a day or so and the T4 med will decrease in the body very quickly.
Graves is very HARD to control and very dangerous symptoms can arise within hours.
Hashi's symptoms and dangers take longer to surface.
So as I said....I disagree that it is the medications that cause psychiatric problems.
It is the lack of them or the overdosing of the HORMONES that cause the problems.
Also electrovconvulsive treatment is barbaric but has been on a comeback now for soe time.
I have personally seen the effects of this therapy for depression and wouldnt put my dog through it , let alone a human being.
The biggest side effect of this treatment is Severe Memory Loss.
The patient is can also end up more depressed than before the treatment,
I have seen people like zombies after this treatment and 9 out of 10 are institutionalised because of this treatment as they cannot function in life again properly.
Its is very sad to watch a depressed person who does have problems, go through this treatment ...taking it as their last resort to happiness and good health to see them after wards like a vegetable and not even able to think for themselves. Not be able to know if they want to eat or not, toilet or not.
The cognitive state of the patient afterwards is destructive.
They are only the SHELL of the person they were prior to this treatment.
I too went through psychiatric problems before RAI.
I had PST (post traumatic stress disorder), I had anxiety, I had panic attacks, there were days I felt like my finger was in a powerpoint.
I WAS SCARED OF EVERYTHING IN LIFE AND SCARED OF LIFE ITSELF.
Now 2 years after RAI, I am back on track,,, got my Div.2 in Nursing and am out to enjoy this crazy world we live in.
And boy, am I gonna rock some boats lol !
Shock Treatment is NOT the answer in this ladies daughters case.
Compassion, understanding, research, help from all of us here and knowledge of this debilitating disease is whats needed.
One thing I did learn from Graves was...NEVER accept anything until you have researched it .
Never believe it is the gospel truth just because the Doc says it is.
Fight for your own sanity and quality in life as we all deserve it.
But most of all...accept what you feel and BE KIND TO YOURSELF.
I am glad Debbie found us as without members here,,, she couldve gone ahead with the shock treatment and lost the daughter she knows to medical stuff ups.
I am sorry but I disagree with you there 6hashi.
Everybody is different in regards to dosage in medication.
I would have to be one who is on one of the lowest doses because my body just converts TOO FAST and reacts against higher doses.
I would say that was most probably the same in your case but it is not the T4 med that causes psychiatric problems.
It is lack of it, too much medication and/or unbalanced hormone levels.
For example....
In the case of Graves disease...if your FT4 is as they say NORMAL (and this is a wide span) and your FT3 HIGH, then obviously you are going to get a pounding heart as the FT3 regulates the organs especially the heart.
UNtreated with anti-thyroid meds, the person will go into thyroid storm (atrial fibrillation).
With Graves, it is hard to regulate the doses as the antibodies as they are continuously attacking the thyroid causing these high levels.
Most Doctors will agree that it is better for someone with Graves to be borderline HYPO than HYPER.
And in 99% of the cases of Graves...the thyroid is ablated so that Docs CAN regulate the levels with medicatications or the paerson will just continue being on a rollercoaster see-saw of hyper to hypo and vice versa.
There is a lot of similarities to HASHI and GRAVES symptoms but in the disease itself.....they are very different.
The symptoms of anxiety , depression, anxiety...these are symptoms of BOTH Hyper and Hypo but with Hashis patients....there is a tendancy to try and let the thyroid durn ITSELF out.
In the case of Graves...the Doctors tend to intervene if anti-thyroid meds dont work as hyperthyroidism and Graves can kill you with Atrial fibrillation.
With Hashi's if medication overdose is given...the meds are just withdrawn for a few days.
With Graves, its the hormones that cause the problems and the only way to withdraw them is ablation or in most cases adding an anti-thyroid med and beta blocker.
If you experienced a steroid shock this wouldve been an allergic reaction to a prednisolone type medication. Nothing whatsover to do with thyroid medication.
Most people have alergies to medications.
But this ladies daughter is in desperate need of ALL the tests done (which Docs havent done) to prove that she has Graves Disease and that the antibodies and levels are causing the psychiatric disorders NOT the meds.
Dont you think it is strange that I, as a Graves patient...suffered with Agoraphobia for 26 years (couldnt go further than 10 minutes away from home) and then as soon as RAI was done , I beat that Agoraphobia?
26 years of having to work from home because of an illness they couldnt pick up but put down to post traumatic stress disorder?
I also experienced 3 episodes of thyroid storm in 2 weeks causing atrial fibrillation and on the 3rd episode , I had to have paddles put on to correct the rythm of the heart and give it a normal heartbeat.
Have I had this since RAI and TT of the thyroid?
NO....not once.
Only because if I do go med induced hyper I can stop the meds for a day or so and the T4 med will decrease in the body very quickly.
Graves is very HARD to control and very dangerous symptoms can arise within hours.
Hashi's symptoms and dangers take longer to surface.
So as I said....I disagree that it is the medications that cause psychiatric problems.
It is the lack of them or the overdosing of the HORMONES that cause the problems.
Also electrovconvulsive treatment is barbaric but has been on a comeback now for soe time.
I have personally seen the effects of this therapy for depression and wouldnt put my dog through it , let alone a human being.
The biggest side effect of this treatment is Severe Memory Loss.
The patient is can also end up more depressed than before the treatment,
I have seen people like zombies after this treatment and 9 out of 10 are institutionalised because of this treatment as they cannot function in life again properly.
Its is very sad to watch a depressed person who does have problems, go through this treatment ...taking it as their last resort to happiness and good health to see them after wards like a vegetable and not even able to think for themselves. Not be able to know if they want to eat or not, toilet or not.
The cognitive state of the patient afterwards is destructive.
They are only the SHELL of the person they were prior to this treatment.
I too went through psychiatric problems before RAI.
I had PST (post traumatic stress disorder), I had anxiety, I had panic attacks, there were days I felt like my finger was in a powerpoint.
I WAS SCARED OF EVERYTHING IN LIFE AND SCARED OF LIFE ITSELF.
Now 2 years after RAI, I am back on track,,, got my Div.2 in Nursing and am out to enjoy this crazy world we live in.
And boy, am I gonna rock some boats lol !
Shock Treatment is NOT the answer in this ladies daughters case.
Compassion, understanding, research, help from all of us here and knowledge of this debilitating disease is whats needed.
One thing I did learn from Graves was...NEVER accept anything until you have researched it .
Never believe it is the gospel truth just because the Doc says it is.
Fight for your own sanity and quality in life as we all deserve it.
But most of all...accept what you feel and BE KIND TO YOURSELF.
I am glad Debbie found us as without members here,,, she couldve gone ahead with the shock treatment and lost the daughter she knows to medical stuff ups.
sorry,,,was supposed to read....
But this ladies daughter is in desperate need of ALL the tests done (which Docs havent done) to prove that she has Graves/Hashi's Disease and that the antibodies and levels are causing the psychiatric disorders NOT the meds.
But this ladies daughter is in desperate need of ALL the tests done (which Docs havent done) to prove that she has Graves/Hashi's Disease and that the antibodies and levels are causing the psychiatric disorders NOT the meds.
wow guys.
Debbie - I desperately hope your daughter will soon feel better. Sending you and her every good wish in the world.
Stella - you are a pure golden angel for giving so much of yourself and your knowledge here. I can't express how impressed I am with your response(s) to this.
this forum is truly an amazing source of support for thyroid sufferers. I just have to salute you.
Debbie - I desperately hope your daughter will soon feel better. Sending you and her every good wish in the world.
Stella - you are a pure golden angel for giving so much of yourself and your knowledge here. I can't express how impressed I am with your response(s) to this.
this forum is truly an amazing source of support for thyroid sufferers. I just have to salute you.
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Here is some keys points you and I discussed to get this doctor the information she needs to do the evaluation if you chose to see her next week.
1. gather up her recent labs she had done and get a hardcopy of the report.
A. - look that over and see if the Free T3 and Free T4 along with TSH was done.
1a. Keep in mind keys things if these frees were done. The Free T3 should be on the high end of the reference guide ( very top) and the Free T4 should be mid high/high(er) there too on that sheet - comparible to the ratios. I bet my house there 2 labs are off.
2a. The TSH (althrough not so important as frees) should be near the .5 or lower but it must be looked at with the frees. If her frees are not optimal - do not pay attention to the TSH.
3a. - check for autoimmune antibody testing and see if they "may " have lloked for Hashitoxicosis. That would require a TPOab and a TgAb test confirming her TSI/ Graves antibodies were still present - along with the tests listed on line 1a. sub paragraph.
2. Out of curiosity, try to also get her reports from when she was dx'd Graves - 3 yrs ago. After we shared more information that she had RAI done with NO UPTAKE ( I am still appauld by that if true) scan and was only based on blood labs - I am sure this doctor would like to review the reports then too - to confirm FOR SURE - Graves was really involved to the degree of recieving RAI for permanent ablation or if other measures should be done. Another reason why looking at that would be the toxicosis theroy. If Graves is/was suppressed and was to some degree then toxicity would not be a dx. BUT - however Hashimoto may be present and only TPOab testing could help here too with proper treatment for that - that is being missed probably.
3. Find out what meds she is on and the quanities used daily. Given the run down of meds you told me you will need to provide this to the doctor and the dosages.
4. Write a brief synopsis of her thyroid/health history with your daughter involved too if possible. It does not need to be in length but key points of her symptoms, mood swings, anything she has described to you since RAI - or at her worst with (Graves?) , should be down on paper and released to this doctor so she can associate quicker with Collena and understand her issues. One thing would be to describe the highs and lows Collena has daily with morning highs and crashes in the afternoon. This specifically points to her adrenals are dragged down and should be written with the other things so this doctor can put that together.
5. Make sure K allows you to be on HIPPA release - or her dad. This will be critical for you - as not sick - be able to help her - as sick - until her mental anquish becomes less. Your family will need to be her advocate at this time and if Kalina allows it - I am proud to step into her corner too.
6. Adrenals testing.... It would be wise for me to give you the saliva test as this doctor suggested for her to test the adrenals through her saliva. I have the test and will give you it. Let me know what you decide but it takes 10 days to look it over and get it back. K will not have true results and thyroid treatment could be difficult - even with correct treatment as you will get - if the adrenals are not resolved to proper health first or with thyroid medication working with too.
7. All those things should be done and handed in to the doctors office for her to review the case prior to your visit - As arranged she will do this free of charge and you will be involved in a short paid visit with this doctor after she reviews the reports to go over real results to get kalina back and away from those butchers ready to shock her. I am horrorified at this whole ordeal!
8. For you Debbie - research the Free T3 hormone and neurologic side effects online. Understand it so you can be there to logically help K with understanding. Also - finally, relax.... it was fate for you to go online today and for me to pick up the post as I did being so close locally. You will get your daughter back emotionally - I promise!
9. For K ( if you show her this Debbie) - Hi :) my name is Nikki and I'd like to talk to you about this horrible disease and condition you have right now. My history of it is very common to yours and I spent years learning how to get myself well. Even though I did not get into as much professional mental issues as you are in being in the hospital - I can tell you certainly - I was very close to losing my life both - health and mind over how bad I was treated after I had RAI for my Graves disease. It sounds easy in the beginning with doctors telling you - but so many of us know - just taking a pill to ablate the thyroid with RAI and go on another pill for thyroid life isn't that easy.
I - as many others- have spent years learning so much and found doctors willing to really help. What you have been asked to do - of you going through shock therapy I think is wrong and could hurt you more. I know its tough and could cause anger to listen to someone who you don't know but at least get the second opinion as I gave your mom on "complete" thyroid help and go with that before any shock treatment.
As God is my witness K, I promise now that your mom and I met - I will try not let you down and you will feel better.
9. Debbie - also read about conversion based off T4 Synthroid drugs into the direct T3 hormone w/ RAI patients.
We've got alot of things to get done this weekend so K gets better. I'll reach out anyway you see fit Debbie.
Sending Hugs.... me.