appropriate age for girls

[milehighguy]

what age is the appropriate age for a father to stop picking up his daughter and letting her wrap her legs around his waist while they hug and kiss each other on the lips?

[margypops]

I dont think there is an appropiate age for this however it may look strange at say a teen doing it, because of her size, what bothers you about it ?some families are very affectionate ..can you enlarge..

[milehighguy]

Thank you for your comment. The situation is this...a father who has 4 girls loves on one very affectionately, but not the others. She is about 9 reaches for her dad to pick her up and she straddlles her dad's waste while she is kissing his mouth. When on the couch, she always straddles his one leg or lays in his lap while he kisses her all over her face. This goes on for a while. To me it seems she is too old to be this affectionate with her father. I see this affection ok for a toddler, but not girls after a certain age. She likes to wear mini skirts and boots and prance around him flirtingly while he lays on the floor. I have heard of the Oedipus Complex where the child sees the parent as a boyfriend. I just think the father should not encourage her behavior. A father's relationship with his daughter determines her future relationships. I think this is sending her a message to be overly affectionte and that can get her in trouble as she gets older. Am I wrong to feel this is offensive behavior?

[narla]

It is so hard to know,every father daughter relationship is different,in our family my husband didn't really kiss my daughter on the lips it just didn't happen,it's not like you can set an age where you say no more kissing on the lips.My daughter didn't wear provocative clothes and she didn't prance around in front of him either.There is no hard and fast rule.

Denise

[margypops]

May I ask what your relationship is here with the child and the father, in differant cultures there is differant affection,all I can speak is from my experience in the US  from your description it does seem too much ,if you are a close relative of the fathers you could mention to him  that it makes you feel uncomfortable, has the mother of the child or any other relative expressed any discomfort aswell as you?/ It is not easy to give you a definitive answer, it is up to the father here to tone it down lessen the encouragement.

[RockRose]

I agree with Margy.  This sounds like way too much to me.  

I don't even think kissing a toddler on the mouth is okay.   I mean,  they all do it,  giving you slobbery kisses on your mouth but then you say no on my cheek like this.  

For a dad to be kissing her face all over is the kind of thing you do with a 1 year old.  

The mini skirts and boots thing really seals the deal,  milehighguy.  

[milehighguy]

Thank you all for your comments. I really appreciate the outside views. To Narla, my dad never kissed me on the lips like that either, it was on the cheek. My dad was always dressed appropriately when around me. This guy feels comfortable in his tight fitting underwear around his daughter and nothing else. He also goes to the bathroom and doesn't close the door at night. I worry she may get up and see more than she should. I feel her dressing provocative and prancing is a bit much for her to do, but he thinks it's cute. He smiles in encouragement. To Margypops, he and I have a long history. We were highschool sweat hearts and almost a year ago, we rekindled our love. I try to explain to him the behavior is inapprpriate for her age and it makes me feel very uncomfortable, and he told me she can love all over him all she wants and whenever she wants and he wasn't going to stop her. If I felt uncomfortable, find a way to deal with it. That really hurt. I explained to him I didn't believe he was a pedifile, but to someone who doesn't know him, he may appear that way. He is divorced from the mother of the child and she is a fluzzy, not the best motherly material. I expressed to him ways to show her love and be appropriate, and he claimed he understood my reasoning at first, but quickly went back to what he was doing. It honestly makes me sick to my stomach to see him carressing her and then try to do the same to me. My 16 year old son asked me why they are acting like boyfriend and girlfriend when I am suppose to be his only girlfriend. I couldn't answer that, but to say it was inappropriate. If my child sees it, why can't he? Rockrose, I agree with you. I was raised to kiss on the cheek and feel kissing on the lips is appropriate for an adult relationship only. Besides, that is how you spread things to children like canker soars. When I had my son, I was told it was better for the child's health to kiss on the cheek to prevent that. If an adult who has canker soars kisses a child, it can spread to the child. I would not want to do that to my son. I feel like you behave around your child or role model,  the way you would want them to chose a spouse, with respect for themselves and the other person. I think too that he is too encouraging. I worry about how she is going to act around guys when she starts dating or what this is doing to my son's image of a father daughter relationship. He and I both have never seen a father act this way with his daughter, so we both find it uncomfortable. I expressed my son's concern to him and he just yelled at me about pissing him off and told me to never bring it up again, he was not molesting his child! I never accused him of that and clearly explained that to him, but he quit talking to me days ago. It seems to me like he is feeling guilty or something if he brought up the subject of molesting and he is aware he is in the wrong. I was shocked when I first saw him holdding her on the couch and running his fingers through her hair while he kissed all around her face. I am not accustomed to this kind of behavior outside an adult relationship. He hasn't talked to me in 3 days and I am hurt and confused. I just don't know who is right and who is wrong in this situation???

[narla]

I'm sensing a real problem here,If you're not comfortable with the way their relationship is I'd leave,he obviously doesn't want to discuss it and personally I find it strange.Also you have to think about your son ,it sounds like he is uncomfortable with the situation as well.I just don't like the thought of leaving the girl in this situation it sends up red flags to me.

Denise

[Lisi251]

Hmmm. my children are 25 & 27 I still give them a peck on the lips as I say hello & goodbye
didnt know anyone would think that was strange.

[RockRose]

I agree Lisi,  giving a person a peck on the lips to say hello or goodbye isn't strange and i don't think anyone would think it was.  It's really hard to imagine comparing what you are describing with what milehighguy is describing -

[narla]

I totally agree RockRose this isn't just a peck on the lips,he was holding her running his hands through her hair and kissing her all over the face,He is also caressing her she is 9 and impressionable at this age in my opinion it is not appropriate.

Denise

[milehighguy]

Narla, I have been contemplating leaving for quite some time, but he is my high school sweet heart and first love, and I really believed a second chance at a first love was meant to be. Call me a romantic fool, but I thought so. I just didn't believe he would be this way. I worry that his little girl will see how its ok to be overly affectionate with dad and think its ok to be that way with any guy. That behavior will get her into trouble quick. I also worry she will try to get closer to dad than what she already is. Once you start giving into that extra attention, it eventually needs more extra attention. He is not teaching her to respect him or herself. I don't like the idea of my son being made to feel that way. I'm an adult, but he is a child still, even at 16. I'm so glad you agree with me and see it is not appropriate. I was wondering if I was overthinking it? Lisi251, a simple peck is understandable, even though that was something my parents  and I stopped doing in my preteen years. I know of other families who still do and that's ok. This is not simple. Thank you rockrose, the descriptions are no comparison! Last we talked he demanded I deal with it, but I cannot in any way be comfortable with this type of behavior. I have to end it regardless of how I feel for my son's sake. I showed him how he can still show her love,  but in more appropriate ways, but he kept going back to the old way. We have an incredible relationship when his kids are at their moms, but when they come to see him, we do not get along because of this issue. I can't find a way to be comfortable with this, am I wrong? Is there a way?

[narla]

You've said it yourself you can't be comfortable with this,you don't want to live the rest of your life being uncomfortable,he won't change especially if he thinks there is nothing wrong with the behaviours,You really don't have much choice,and no you are not wrong,also your son is important,I'd be worried in case she started to flirt with him.He doesn't need this this type of confusion when he is going through adolescence,My personal opinion,I'd leave.

Denise  

[milehighguy]

You are right, my son does not need that type of confusion in his pubescent stage of life. However, he feels this guy is like a stepfather to him and he loves him, and knows I do too. This is really hard. Am i asking too much of him to ask him to change his behavior or I can't stay in this relationship? I hate ultimatums, but how else can this be resolved? I'm torn...

[narla]

You have said your son thinks of him as a stepfather,how long have you been together?and has he always been this way towards his daughter?I assumed it was a fairly new relationship.But no you can't change him so don't even try.

Denise

[Lisi251]

I understand what you are saying & do find it very disturbing.At the same time just wanted to make sure that everyone did not feel it was strange to kiss your child.
I will be the first one to look out for any strange behavior around children being that I was molested as a child from 5 years old until I was 9.

[milehighguy]

Narla, we have been together almost a year and I have seen him do that a few times, not always. He broke it off with me today over the phone at work so it won't be an issue anymore. Thanks for your help though, but now I'm heart broken.  My son begged him not to and I feel so bad for my son now. Lisi251, no it's not strange to kiss your child and I'm really sorry to hear about your past experience. I hope you are doing ok now.

[margypops]

Its good that the relationship is over as he may not chamge ,he has said he doesnt want to , so its best to move on, it may seem over the top to us but some cultures are like that , I see it amongst Latin folks where I live, so if it makes you uncomfortable best not to be around it ...

[RockRose]

milehighguy,  this is so sad.  : (   I'm really sorry that your son lost out in this.  

But I really don't think I could sit in the room while she dances for him.  I can't imagine that he doesn't see it - especially since he has other daughters who apparently have a more normal relationship with him.  

Best wishes.

[milehighguy]

Margypops, he is just as country white boy as can be so it's not culture, but I hear you. I'm still heartbroken because we already had our future planned out. I had a ring and we were going to commit soon. My world just shattered in seconds and all I have done is cry. I'm not sure how to move on from the love of my life. I know what he was doing was not normal to me, but was I right to call him out on it? Rockrose, thanks for the best wishes. My son hasn't found out yet, but I know when he finds out he will be devistated. Neither of us want to tell him, or his kids. I think he has seen it to an extent, but just denies it. I just don't understand why he wants to throw away our relationship over something that can be managed differently.

[margypops]

He would if he wanted to , he doesnt want to change his ways he wants you to accept it, you cant so there fore you both move on , it is sad, have you heard from him since he called you , maybe you are going to have to let go,let some time go by ..I didnt mean it was a color thing I meant that if he was from a latin or south American culture they are more demonstrative and its hard sometimes to understand it ...

[milehighguy]

Yes he and I have had some extensive talks about things and he has changed his behavior, but he is also talking to an "old friend" right now at the same time and talking to me less, but telling me he wants noone else.His actions are contradicting his words. He has asked for time, a break from dating, but has said he is analyzing the situation. I'm not sure how it is going to turn out...

[milehighguy]

He has also been short with his words when texting, as if he has turned cold. He told me he had to think with his head and not his heart because it was too painful right now. I'm not quite understanding what he is thinking, but it's conflicting to me...

[margypops]

He may be considering that he is losing you unless he changes the way he allows his daughter to behave maybe its a matter of how much he wants to be with you, after all you are not saying he wont see his daughhter but just that the behavior be toned down to fit in with both of you .Maybe let it be for a short while and see what happens ,remember he has to be careful not to make his daughter upset to extremes as she is used to a lot of affection if he does what you are asking he will have to start to put her down and not allow the behavior thats not going to be easy..Good luck i hope it works out ....

[Dazon50]

I am going to throw in my two cents worth here and say that I would be disturbed by what you are describing.  Boundaries are important and the examples set are lasting.

http://www.theginblog.com/2007/11/butterfly-kisses-do-you-consider-it-inappropriate-for-a-father-to-kiss-his-daughter-on-the-lips/

Lingering too long or doing too much of something like that seems inappropriate, also wearing tight fitting undershorts and leaving the door open.  Seems like you have red flags popping up.

I wonder what his background is that this is acceptable to him?  Do you know how he was raised?  The thing about us not knowing any of these facts or him, leaves me wondering about his relationship with his ex.  Was it his choice to end the marriage?  Does this child resemble her more or less than the others?  I didn't want to read more into his behavior but it brings up a number of questions.  I have read about emotional incest before as well as other direct types of  behaviors.

A concern (red flag) is the way he is reacting to this.  Pushing you away or distancing you when you are showing concern for his daughter is strange.  Your view is valid.  I hope also that you are able to work things out for the best for all.  I believe you are right to be concerned.