Aa
FYI...
" Discuss with others, the symptoms of addiction, addiction recovery, ways to quit like tapering and cold turkey, and withdrawal symptoms. If you are interested in general "chat", please visit our Addiction Social Community."
I copied this from the SA forum description. These are the words of MH (I wouldn't have put in all those commas, personally)
I've received plenty of warnings about giving taper info to people so I won't be doing that if I want to remain a member here...I,also,would never give a thirsty man a cool drink and tell him not to swallow.
I copied this from the SA forum description. These are the words of MH (I wouldn't have put in all those commas, personally)
I've received plenty of warnings about giving taper info to people so I won't be doing that if I want to remain a member here...I,also,would never give a thirsty man a cool drink and tell him not to swallow.
Best Answer
I do wonder, though, if anyone can make the call that it's good or bad. Wouldn't it be different for different drugs, for different people with different medical histories, length and amount of use, number of different drugs used, weight, etc., etc., etc.
Okay...we're only talking about drugs of abuse here and I'm not a doctor either.
When we talk about drugs of abuse, there is a standard taper guideline and it's easy and safe. At the same time, considering a person's medical condition,age,history,and the fact that much information is generally held back by the person; abrupt withdrawal of any addicting drug is far more dangerous.
But, I've said all of this already. There's nothing left to discuss because we're right back to where this began.
I was happy to see the thread I referred to has been "edited". Unfortunately,even after it had been reported numerous times by numerous folks, it remained there for all to see for many hours...
Take care everyone!
Okay...we're only talking about drugs of abuse here and I'm not a doctor either.
When we talk about drugs of abuse, there is a standard taper guideline and it's easy and safe. At the same time, considering a person's medical condition,age,history,and the fact that much information is generally held back by the person; abrupt withdrawal of any addicting drug is far more dangerous.
But, I've said all of this already. There's nothing left to discuss because we're right back to where this began.
I was happy to see the thread I referred to has been "edited". Unfortunately,even after it had been reported numerous times by numerous folks, it remained there for all to see for many hours...
Take care everyone!
Dear vicki595,
We are sure you didn't realize that posting dosing or tapering information is not allowed on MedHelp, but we have deleted your post in Addiction for that reason.
It is impossible for us to know someone's entire medical history, and there may be underlying medical conditions that maybe they aren't even aware of yet that could be made worse when tapering.
We are sure your intentions are good, and just wanted to let you know. Please continue to post for support and info as you work through your recovery.
Sincerely,
The MedHelp Team
Medhelp International
929 Market St Suite 300
San Francisco CA 94103
415-882-4600
Privacy policy:
http://www.medhelp.org/privacy.htm
I received the above email yesterday. One of my posts on this thread has been deleted because it provided taper info as my other two did. It was not MY taper info. I took it directly from an article in the Health Pages.
There's a new member on the SA side who posted about being on Sub 4mg for over a year, Ritalin, and Valium. He wants off! His plan is to quit CT. I didn't think that was wise and told him so. Another (new) member came along and told him: "Yes...you can do it...Just stop. Throw it away"...or something near to that! Not good....
We are sure you didn't realize that posting dosing or tapering information is not allowed on MedHelp, but we have deleted your post in Addiction for that reason.
It is impossible for us to know someone's entire medical history, and there may be underlying medical conditions that maybe they aren't even aware of yet that could be made worse when tapering.
We are sure your intentions are good, and just wanted to let you know. Please continue to post for support and info as you work through your recovery.
Sincerely,
The MedHelp Team
Medhelp International
929 Market St Suite 300
San Francisco CA 94103
415-882-4600
Privacy policy:
http://www.medhelp.org/privacy.htm
I received the above email yesterday. One of my posts on this thread has been deleted because it provided taper info as my other two did. It was not MY taper info. I took it directly from an article in the Health Pages.
There's a new member on the SA side who posted about being on Sub 4mg for over a year, Ritalin, and Valium. He wants off! His plan is to quit CT. I didn't think that was wise and told him so. Another (new) member came along and told him: "Yes...you can do it...Just stop. Throw it away"...or something near to that! Not good....
I am not saying it's a good taper plan, or a bad one. I am not a doctor, and can't make that call.
I do wonder, though, if anyone can make the call that it's good or bad. Wouldn't it be different for different drugs, for different people with different medical histories, length and amount of use, number of different drugs used, weight, etc., etc., etc.
And now we have come full circle. We can't know everything about a person, and even if someone is not intentionally leaving anything out or misstating their history, things get left out, misunderstood, etc. Just the other day at the doctor, I forgot to tell him a really, really important part of my medical history that could in fact be contributing to something I have going on now. I remembered as I was on the exam table, and missed it entirely in all the forms I had to fill out, and during the consultation we had before I got on the table. It happens.
There are no easy answers, but we have to err on the side of caution.
Emily
I do wonder, though, if anyone can make the call that it's good or bad. Wouldn't it be different for different drugs, for different people with different medical histories, length and amount of use, number of different drugs used, weight, etc., etc., etc.
And now we have come full circle. We can't know everything about a person, and even if someone is not intentionally leaving anything out or misstating their history, things get left out, misunderstood, etc. Just the other day at the doctor, I forgot to tell him a really, really important part of my medical history that could in fact be contributing to something I have going on now. I remembered as I was on the exam table, and missed it entirely in all the forms I had to fill out, and during the consultation we had before I got on the table. It happens.
There are no easy answers, but we have to err on the side of caution.
Emily
Okay...one more. I don't know who wrote this and there aren't any references so this info is not supported:
Question- What is a good taper plan?
Answer- For a quick, less than 21 day detox a 1mg reduction every other day seems to work for most people. The less than 21 days time frame is assuming that your body has not yet become re-addicted to the sub. People that stay on sub roughly past the 21 day mark seem to report a much more difficult time discontinuing sub when they try.
The first few days of sub induction its important to stay at the highest doses that dont make you sick. Most people start out between 8mg or 12mg, and after about 3 to 5 days the wds from your previous drug will begin to fade and that is when its best to start reducing your dose. Everybody is different, so if you really begin to feel wd symptoms when trying to taper, just take a little bit more to make yourself comfortable. For most people initially taking sub, a dramatic reduction will rarely be felt at all, and like previously mentioned..if it does, just take a little more!
A pill cutter or razor can be used to achieve the lower dosages, sub is also available in 2mg pils.
Day 1 (8mg to 12mg) - If all you needed was less than simply find your dose and reduce a little slower or in 1mg doses.
Day 2 (8mg to 12mg) Once a day.. or split into (2) 4mg or 6mg doses
Day 3 (8mg to 12mg)
Day 4 (6mg to 10mg)
Day 5 (6mg to 10mg)
Day 6 (6mg to 8mg)
Day 7 (4mg to 8mg)
Day 8 (4mg to 6mg)
Day 9 (4mg to 6mg)
Day 10 (2mg to 4mg)
Day 11 (2mg to 4mg)
Day 12 (2mg to 3mg)
Day 13 (1mg to 2mg) (at around this point you may start to feel the reductions)
Day 14 (1mg to 2mg)
Day 15 (1mg to 2mg)
Day 16 (.5mg to 1mg) (you can stop at this point if you are ready)
Day 17 (.5mg to 1mg)
Day 18 (.5mg to 1mg)
Days 19 to 21- (.25mg to .5mg) if you can break/cut the pills this small, this low amount will make the wds as mild as possible. A long drawn out taper is not really needed if you are not yet physically addicted to the sub, so feel free to make up your own plan, just try to jump at around the 1mg mark for the easiest overall time. (Short term sub detoxes only)
How many of us would share this link with a person asking for a Sub taper?
If somone is taking Suboxone, there's usually a doctor behind them. If they don't have a doctor for guidance then what this taper plan does is promote an illegal and dangerous activity...
Question- What is a good taper plan?
Answer- For a quick, less than 21 day detox a 1mg reduction every other day seems to work for most people. The less than 21 days time frame is assuming that your body has not yet become re-addicted to the sub. People that stay on sub roughly past the 21 day mark seem to report a much more difficult time discontinuing sub when they try.
The first few days of sub induction its important to stay at the highest doses that dont make you sick. Most people start out between 8mg or 12mg, and after about 3 to 5 days the wds from your previous drug will begin to fade and that is when its best to start reducing your dose. Everybody is different, so if you really begin to feel wd symptoms when trying to taper, just take a little bit more to make yourself comfortable. For most people initially taking sub, a dramatic reduction will rarely be felt at all, and like previously mentioned..if it does, just take a little more!
A pill cutter or razor can be used to achieve the lower dosages, sub is also available in 2mg pils.
Day 1 (8mg to 12mg) - If all you needed was less than simply find your dose and reduce a little slower or in 1mg doses.
Day 2 (8mg to 12mg) Once a day.. or split into (2) 4mg or 6mg doses
Day 3 (8mg to 12mg)
Day 4 (6mg to 10mg)
Day 5 (6mg to 10mg)
Day 6 (6mg to 8mg)
Day 7 (4mg to 8mg)
Day 8 (4mg to 6mg)
Day 9 (4mg to 6mg)
Day 10 (2mg to 4mg)
Day 11 (2mg to 4mg)
Day 12 (2mg to 3mg)
Day 13 (1mg to 2mg) (at around this point you may start to feel the reductions)
Day 14 (1mg to 2mg)
Day 15 (1mg to 2mg)
Day 16 (.5mg to 1mg) (you can stop at this point if you are ready)
Day 17 (.5mg to 1mg)
Day 18 (.5mg to 1mg)
Days 19 to 21- (.25mg to .5mg) if you can break/cut the pills this small, this low amount will make the wds as mild as possible. A long drawn out taper is not really needed if you are not yet physically addicted to the sub, so feel free to make up your own plan, just try to jump at around the 1mg mark for the easiest overall time. (Short term sub detoxes only)
How many of us would share this link with a person asking for a Sub taper?
If somone is taking Suboxone, there's usually a doctor behind them. If they don't have a doctor for guidance then what this taper plan does is promote an illegal and dangerous activity...
COMMUNITY LEADER
Taper away my little chickadees, im the cold(hearted)turkey chick!!!
So, are you thinking that taper (above) is a good taper? Safe? We could recommend it?
It's missing some valuable information. So, I wouldn't feel comfortable sending anyone that link.
It's missing some valuable information. So, I wouldn't feel comfortable sending anyone that link.
Matt- Maybe my phone number so I could tell them they really need a doctor...
"Barbiturate Taper; Do Not Try This At Home" I know I did and silently which is not good. But, I knew I could and the taper was so darn long and drawn out I almost died of boredom!
"Barbiturate Taper; Do Not Try This At Home" I know I did and silently which is not good. But, I knew I could and the taper was so darn long and drawn out I almost died of boredom!
What about this? Also,taken (in part) from the Health Pages under "Changing Behaviors and Tapering".
How to do a taper is easy. Changing the behavior is the HARD part, but you have to want to change.
If you are taking 6 pills a day... then start taking them in even doses and don't take like 3-4 at a time. 24 hrs divided by 6 = 4 hrs. So only take one pill every 4 hrs. Then take 5 pills in 24 hrs. That's 4.8 hrs. Then 4 pills a day... break pills into 1/2's so you have 8 1/2 pills. and take 1/2 a pill every 3 hrs. Etc.
If you can't stick to a taper give the pills to a friend to dispense.
Now, that taper is funny to me. Who takes just 6 pills??? A very compliant person...anyway, there it is. This is what new members see when we send them off to the Health Pages to read. The articles are all very good and the whole scoop is right there. There is also a benzo taper article but, sadly, not a barbiturate taper. I'll have to write one...
How to do a taper is easy. Changing the behavior is the HARD part, but you have to want to change.
If you are taking 6 pills a day... then start taking them in even doses and don't take like 3-4 at a time. 24 hrs divided by 6 = 4 hrs. So only take one pill every 4 hrs. Then take 5 pills in 24 hrs. That's 4.8 hrs. Then 4 pills a day... break pills into 1/2's so you have 8 1/2 pills. and take 1/2 a pill every 3 hrs. Etc.
If you can't stick to a taper give the pills to a friend to dispense.
Now, that taper is funny to me. Who takes just 6 pills??? A very compliant person...anyway, there it is. This is what new members see when we send them off to the Health Pages to read. The articles are all very good and the whole scoop is right there. There is also a benzo taper article but, sadly, not a barbiturate taper. I'll have to write one...
that is certainly a taper schedule for methadone. so because it isnt on the forum to one specific person it is ok in the health pages and that is general tapering advice? then we can come up with one for each class of drugs and refer people to the health pages?
If you have a few minutes,take a look at this. Thoughts? Is this perfectly fine because it's in the Health Pages?
http://www.medhelp.org/health_pages/Addiction/Methadone-Opiate-Detox-and-Taper-Realities-Part-2/show/352?cid=66
http://www.medhelp.org/health_pages/Addiction/Methadone-Opiate-Detox-and-Taper-Realities-Part-2/show/352?cid=66
It did resolve very nicely but those words got ugly and personal and it was all about your fear now. You really thought I was PMing that gal and giving taper info which is dangerous and a huge responsibility! Believe me, I like to sleep at night...as you know.
It does go on quite a bit but not with me...and it's my fear as well.
It does go on quite a bit but not with me...and it's my fear as well.
and vicki, i disagree. in the end, our conversation had a resolution and during the entire conversation, we both mentioned valid points for someone abusing fioricet to consider. of course, i'm of the frame of mind that very little should be deleted since bad advice is generally weeded out on its own by the overwhelming amount of good advice. arguments will always resolve themselves, eventually...because they simply don't have a choice but to do so. granted, some things DO need to be removed...but i still don't think that was one of them. i guess if you do, then perhaps it should have. i don't see it that way, though.
i suppose i would NEVER make a good moderator. lol.
i suppose i would NEVER make a good moderator. lol.
i am thoroughly more confused than ever :)
this is the point where i take my own advice, though, and do not seek to find clarity. there's none to be found. i will say, though, that the more dangerous step would be if people decide to start opererating only via private messages because of warnings. then, there is no delete button or anyone else there to mention how idiotic some of the advice is out there. i've actually seen someone say that a person could go cold turkey on fioricet because they did it and it was fine. i guess since no taper was involved, it was ok...because to my knowledge, that response is still out there in digi-land.
but it seems i'm getting lucky! there have been no barbiturate abusers in the forums lately...which really means i have no interest in the matter anyway.
i do think its interesting, though, that a persons bottle often says 2 tabs every 4 to 6 hours...but by the standard mentioned, we wouldn't be able to tell them how to take less or offer any direction at all to take less, other than to talk to their doctor, who essentially is also acting as their drug dealer. it really is a fine line that gets more and more confusing.
this is the point where i take my own advice, though, and do not seek to find clarity. there's none to be found. i will say, though, that the more dangerous step would be if people decide to start opererating only via private messages because of warnings. then, there is no delete button or anyone else there to mention how idiotic some of the advice is out there. i've actually seen someone say that a person could go cold turkey on fioricet because they did it and it was fine. i guess since no taper was involved, it was ok...because to my knowledge, that response is still out there in digi-land.
but it seems i'm getting lucky! there have been no barbiturate abusers in the forums lately...which really means i have no interest in the matter anyway.
i do think its interesting, though, that a persons bottle often says 2 tabs every 4 to 6 hours...but by the standard mentioned, we wouldn't be able to tell them how to take less or offer any direction at all to take less, other than to talk to their doctor, who essentially is also acting as their drug dealer. it really is a fine line that gets more and more confusing.
I think it's ok to say that something is the standard of care for tapering from certain things, but care needs to be taken so that medical advice is not given. It can be a fine line. Telling someone how to take any prescription medication is giving medical advice.
It all may be really common, well known, and well accepted by professionals in the field, but we still need to be careful.
If anyone ever has a question, just let us know.
Em
It all may be really common, well known, and well accepted by professionals in the field, but we still need to be careful.
If anyone ever has a question, just let us know.
Em
HAHAHAHAHA!
This is what I told you about!! We fight over you Matt!
No No. They needed deleting and I about needed deleting after you copied and pasted my PM to you on the open forum!! LMAO!! You showed me who the boss is and I loved it!! I have, quite obviuosly, loved and trusted you ever since...
Moving on: There I was a moment ago, just reading on the SA forum when I find a billion wrong wrong wrong comments about Xanax on the forum and on the same thread. Good grief!! Did not even have the type correct...so what does this mean to us? Say less/be more strict? Completely spell it out?
Say YES to the stickies!!
This is what I told you about!! We fight over you Matt!
No No. They needed deleting and I about needed deleting after you copied and pasted my PM to you on the open forum!! LMAO!! You showed me who the boss is and I loved it!! I have, quite obviuosly, loved and trusted you ever since...
Moving on: There I was a moment ago, just reading on the SA forum when I find a billion wrong wrong wrong comments about Xanax on the forum and on the same thread. Good grief!! Did not even have the type correct...so what does this mean to us? Say less/be more strict? Completely spell it out?
Say YES to the stickies!!
hahaha
well now, this could become a sticky situation, couldn't it?
and vicki, it's a shame our barbs got deleted. it was a nice record of our 'first date'...used to make me smile. lol.
well now, this could become a sticky situation, couldn't it?
and vicki, it's a shame our barbs got deleted. it was a nice record of our 'first date'...used to make me smile. lol.
I agree with you Matt; we're on the same page.It's all about the help we can give,honestly.
I did suggest a Tramadol be cut in 1/2. It makes it easier to taper, as you said. I suggested to the same person that she do some tapering with her 2 p.m. dose. I didn't say to skip it. I said to taper it. I still believe that was perfectly fine and the person saw it before it got deleted so no harm either way. What's funny is: that gal put herself on specific times of the day to take her pills. She didn't have to. We know they're all prn. But she did it to make it easier on herself. I though it would be easiest to tweak that 2 p.m. dose as opposed to others. I'm using this particular example only for illistration...it caused no harm. BUT, I do see the mods side,as well. That thread had the whole world posting on it and giving advice and it was all tapering and that makes anyone nervous! I get that.
I believe the Mods when they say they look at things and then make a decision. It's true. Again, on that thread someone came out of the walls and suggested getting on extended release Tramadol and cutting that. UGH!! That's when it went south. I reported that one and essentially reported myself as well! I saw it happening! LOL They didn't have much choice but to get after all the comments.
Matt- I really believe that the Fioricet advice has been given over to you and I. The only time (OMG!) that any posts got deleted was that once when we were quarreling (at the top of our lungs) and it got a little off color...and we reported eachother (that's how are love story began LOL).
Thanks for joining in here...it's great to get this all talked about. I like your last paragraph...
I did suggest a Tramadol be cut in 1/2. It makes it easier to taper, as you said. I suggested to the same person that she do some tapering with her 2 p.m. dose. I didn't say to skip it. I said to taper it. I still believe that was perfectly fine and the person saw it before it got deleted so no harm either way. What's funny is: that gal put herself on specific times of the day to take her pills. She didn't have to. We know they're all prn. But she did it to make it easier on herself. I though it would be easiest to tweak that 2 p.m. dose as opposed to others. I'm using this particular example only for illistration...it caused no harm. BUT, I do see the mods side,as well. That thread had the whole world posting on it and giving advice and it was all tapering and that makes anyone nervous! I get that.
I believe the Mods when they say they look at things and then make a decision. It's true. Again, on that thread someone came out of the walls and suggested getting on extended release Tramadol and cutting that. UGH!! That's when it went south. I reported that one and essentially reported myself as well! I saw it happening! LOL They didn't have much choice but to get after all the comments.
Matt- I really believe that the Fioricet advice has been given over to you and I. The only time (OMG!) that any posts got deleted was that once when we were quarreling (at the top of our lungs) and it got a little off color...and we reported eachother (that's how are love story began LOL).
Thanks for joining in here...it's great to get this all talked about. I like your last paragraph...
Have an Answer?
You are reading content posted in the Addiction: Social Community
Is treating glaucoma with marijuana all hype, or can hemp actually help?
If you think marijuana has no ill effects on your health, this article from Missouri Medicine may make you think again.
Julia Aharonov, DO, reveals the quickest way to beat drug withdrawal.
Tricks to help you quit for good.
A list of national and international resources and hotlines to help connect you to needed health and medical services.
Herpes sores blister, then burst, scab and heal.
