Member Comments are provided by individuals and reflect their personal opinions only. Under NO circumstances should you act on any advice or opinion posted in this forum. ALWAYS check with your personal physician before taking any action regarding your health! MedHelp International and our partners, sponsors and affiliates have no obligation to monitor any comments posted on this site, or the content and/or accuracy of such exchanges. MedHelp International does not endorse the views of any user.
Can 2 addicts make it together?
by Roxy30blues, Aug 24, 2007 02:56AM
My wife and I both have a problem with pain Killers and are trying to quit and get out lives back in order and family back together. I wanted some help figuring out how to do this successfully. Is it possible for a husband and wife who once had the whole at there fingertips and now are the verge of losing everyhting make it all right again? Its hard enough for 1 addict with the help of a supporting loving spouse to help them through their addiction. How does it work when both need help and need each other as well? ITs a catch 22 becasue on one hand we are each others worst enenies becasue we justify use when we are together however without each other how can we find the strength and incentive to clean up and stay sober?
Please I am desparately looking for answers and success stories or advise on how to do this? Can it be done? Is it hopeless?
Please I am desparately looking for answers and success stories or advise on how to do this? Can it be done? Is it hopeless?
Related discussions
-
vicoden question (66 replies):My wife was addicted to Vicoden more than a year ago. I ...[more]
-
Re-Addiction/detox (110 replies):I have been clean for a little while now, however, I hav...[more]
-
well it happend i lost my wife (24 replies):i was going to start wed. going into withdrawel but it w...[more]
-
My Wife is Sober But not herself-Help!!! (2 replies):I need some help trying to interrupt my NEW wife who ret...[more]
-
I TOLD MY WIFE (21 replies):Well last night I told my wife about my appointment on T...[more]
-
help please (23 replies):Ok, I've been reading from this site for a few weeks now...[more]
-
I just want to give up! (7 replies):I don't really have a question just feel the need to ven...[more]
-
How to quite hydrocodone/vicodin??? HELP! (27 replies):Hello all. I am new to this so any suggestions, tips, t...[more]
-
To all who know my story (17 replies):I don't seem to be getting through to my wife so I'm goi...[more]
Post Comment
Related Communities
Recent Videos
Related Expert Forums
Recent Activity
Most Popular Trackers
RSS
Expert Activity
Community Members
Most Viewed Health Pages
You both understand what the other has been through......
Plus you can both support each other and help each other with recovery.........
Another great thing is you both cannot lie to each other about your addiction...
Go to N/A meetings together and see an addiction counselor once a month of possible...
Whether your married or not both of you can get to recovery if you bust your asses to get there..........
Have either one of you been to N/A before?
I believe you can make it together. However, one thing I can say from experience is that you have to work your own programs. Whether it be counseling or N/A, or whatever you choose. You each have unique issues that got you to using in the first place and they need to be addressed individually. The pain meds just masked the pain of whatever you each had going on in your lives, but they are not the problem. The problem is something deeper, and I would imagine it is different for both of you.
I know "together" and "separately" seem confusing, but it does work (from my experience). If you work on your individual problems, then you can support each other together.
Good Luck and thanks for the post.
Lisa
It may sound cold hearted, but I don't think it really is. Anything I place in front of my Recovery is going to be lost anyway and I'm no good to myself or others if I don't stay in Recovery. Staying in a relationship with someone who has returned to active addiction would be an immediate and serious danger to my Recovery. If I don't protect my Recovery by backing away from that Relationship (at least for the other's active period), it's far more likely that my Recovery will fail than it is that I will nurse the other back into Recovery. If my Recovery fails, I won't be ANY help to the other.
Anyway, it does seem to work, with the proper ground rules.
CATUF
Day-808
You've gotten 8 comments from people who care, but still just your one. Like I've seen Beachtowel post before "do you really want to quit", or are you just surfing the internet? There's help if you want to quit. Help each other and both of you use the forum to help you both.
You haven't described the extent of your addiction, what pills you are taking, how often, how much its cost you in your life so far. Write it down. Write down the destruction you have witnessed to your lives so far. Things become more real when you write them down. It gives folks here an idea of what you are up against. You've gotten 8 other folks here reaching back out to help you. Do you want their help or not?
Roxy,
I also wanted to point out that when my husband was alive and we talked about quitting or getting help, and actually did try to quit, one person would always cave in and go get pills or make the other want to cave in and get pills. Withdrawing from Oxy, with your partner...is nothing short of pure hell. It was a nightmare and instead of having beautiful memories of my husband, that is what I remember most. That, and also finding him, already gone....I hope things work out for you...
Lisa
Roxy30blues, yes you and your significant other can get soer together, but let me warn you it is incredibly hard! My husband and I have both been sober for over 3 years. It is a very long story, but he relapsed while I was pregant with my little girl and I couldn't handle it. He was doing oc's which was my drug of choice, and I wanted them so bad. I was not strong enough to not do them. That is when I od'd. He has never used since the night that happened 3 and 1/2 years ago. He still cry's when we talk about it. He ended up going back to rehab the day after I got out of the hospital, and I was stuck at home with a 2 month old baby girl. I had severe post partumn depression. All I wanted to do was sleep! I new I could get some Ambien so I went and got some and ended up taking 15 in one night. This was less than 4 days since I got out of the hospital on life support. Addiction is a crazy thing, and will make you do crazy #$*! I didn;'t see anything worng with taking the Ambien, although I did not mean to take that much. Anyways we have both been very dedicated in our recovery's since then. And that is what it takes, you both have to be entirely commited to your recover, before your relationship. My husband and I had been to treatment about a year before the od happened. We probably would have gotten a divorce, but I found out I was pregant and we decided to work it out. I got pregnant the day before we came home from treatment together. After the od we went to seperate tretment centers. I went to Arizona and he went back to Minnesota. The sencond time worked better beacuse we focued on ourselves and not each other. The people at Hazelden did not want us to come together the 1st time but we instisted! We wouldn't have gone to treatment if you could not go together. That was a big mistake! Please try to find an addiction Dr. to help you and you spouce get the proper treatment! Please let me know if I can do anything for you all! If you click on my name, I have my email on there, let me know if I can help you!
The final stopping is the hardest part. We've been together 15 years, and we both hate seeing the other suffering. So we decided to stagger it this time, and when I reach D-day (I drew the short straw, get to go first!) we've actually discussed the idea of my getting a room somewhere for the couple of weeks if it's really bad, so she doesn't have to sit by and watch me suffer. Otherwise, it's very hard to deal with. So if you're smart, you should be able to make it through. Both of you. Just make sure you arrange things practically. You'll have to take turns being out of comission, and let the other one take care things, while staying away if necessary.
I guess I can say we've been lucky in this. Although we did have many years together before the addiction thing. I've heard people say that people who hook up as addicts never work out together if they stop using. I can't say I recall that being true or not... but I guess if you stop using and find out that's all you have in common, where else can you go???
If I sound all over the place with this it is because I am. Its seems very black and white with the program and the use of it. It reminds me of the Catholic Church before Vatican II, when if you weren't a Catholic you are up the creek basically, however I think the program needs a reform i.e. Vatican II or Program II. What I am getting at is after Vatican II the church said (in much fancier words) "It doesn't matter if you’re a Jew, Muslim Protestant as long as you are good faithful Jew, Muslim; etc you’re going to got a shot at going to the Big Dance." I just want to work a program that feel will be the most successful in the long run and it’s not exactly AA or NA. IT may be similar in ways be not in other ways, other ways which are completely unacceptable to the program true believer.
My wife's have been involved in the Program here entire life because of her dad is a lifetime member and still using on and off every few months. He is a Heroin addict that and was a alcoholic prior and has been in the program for over 30 years and dragged his family along for the ride. He has 3 kids of which two are addicted to oxys (one being my wife) and the youngest daughter such an anti-anything person she refuses to drink a beer during her college experience. She is the extreme opposite just the other way which has left her feeling out of place confused and a whole list of things. This may be a bad example of the Program results but its what I have to go on. Her father is what I call and expert Program person. He is very good at it, we knows everything to say and do to be a proactive member and typically has most fooled on when he is using and not until my wife and brother find him passed out at his desk with needles and spoons all over his office on a Monday morning prior to a meeting with some bankers. He has fulled his entire company with people from the program and it totally consumes (ed) his entire life and most of his families. In my opinion her mother failed as well by accepting this way of life and forcing it on her children. They never had a shot, it was almost an option to become a addict and when they did it just was like they processed them and officially signed them into the group. The first time my wife went into rehab her father told her mother that “you know this is not the last time we will be doing this with her” So he already assumed she was going to fail before she even had a shot at fighting to stay clean. That is just the complete opposite and mindset I have, I have to believe and tell myself I will not fail this time and I am going to fight with every last breathe and stay dedicated to doing this the right way and a successful way. It also helps they are millionaires and don’t mind spending thousands of dollars in rehabs and treatments time after time. Ultimately her dad and mother divorced about 5 years ago finally because her father found someone in the Program that he could relate to didn’t judge him and understands him, an ex-crackhead dancer (I am not judging just stating the facts). She is in a wheelchair now from getting so wasted about a year ago she sleep in a weird position for 8 hours and cut off all of the blood to her legs. They had to remove most of the dead tissue from her legs and now she’s legality on 80mg OC for the pain and most likely will be forever.
My family has its share of alcoholics, almost all the men, and a few of the women. There are a few drug users including me now (I was once the pride & joy of my entire family. I was the first to graduate highschool, first to go to college and graduate, then became a CPA, as did my wife. My uncle was also a 20 year heroin addict who quit cold turkey and never used again, then was a severe abusive alcoholic for many years until quitting that cold turkey as well. Its not to say that my family wouldn’t use treatment centers we are just overall a poor family and o not have that kind of money. Now I have my father who is hooked on Oxys after a car accident and its been about 7 years now and he has lost everything and is back living with me at least until my wife comes back home.
In my opinion neither method worked very well and there for them and with the right help could have maybe found the right solution. But what I am CERTAIN is the program is not for me, however I am immediately branded narrow minded and anti-program. I constantly hear “I know you thing all this Program stuff is BS”, I constantly defend my self and state that is the farther thing from the truth.
Why can’t I just be supportive for those in the program and work my own program for me? This is now the big challenge I face with my wife’s current position. She is 30 days clean & in the Program living with her mother. Here Mother in my eyes is just repeating the same role she took with her husband unsuccessfully for 28 years now using my wife and son. I have to do something, of course the start is to quit myself again, which I believe I’m in the position to do. Due to the advise of her counselor she refuses to talk to me and has set boundaries with me out of her life for now while she takes care of herself. I had another post with “Bosox0407” earlier which I changed because after I wrote the message I thought the username would give me away to certain people so I want to me able to speak freely here without that worry so for those who read that message, same guy. As I mentioned before I am just confused on how to approach this situation with my wife and how I can get my family back, all clean & sober.
Well the first excuse of not talking she gave was because she quit and I still was using. So I detoxed cold turkey that next day over a 4 day weekend. Its only the second time I went cold turkey and it was horrific!! Then she talked to me but wouldn’t come home still because her mom has her convince that if we are back together we will justify using to ourselves and be back on them in a week. We it’s a long story but this time is like no other, the consequences that came recently and stand to come if we don’t are leaps and bounds above any type of motivation we had before when trying to quit. So about 5 days into me being clean, she still wouldn’t see me and speak that much just bare minimum and it really was hurting my because I was going crazy sitting in a big empty house without my family, while she had a full house and a full schedule. Well I wanted to talk about down the road a little bit and she jumped down my throat about looking to far and take a day at a time. Which is easy to say when she is making all the calls! So we got into a little argument and it got heated, very small fight , nothing like we had gotten used to. Then she shut me out again and wouldn’t talk to me again even though I was clean. She wouldn’t answer my calls and text me all communication must go through her mother. She wasn’t able to deal with those types of discussions right now and she is going to listen to her aftercare staff and not communicate with me until I at least 30 days clean. Well of course you can guess what happened next, serious mentally crash, and I lined up 6-30s and away I went. Now I tried everything to start communication back up but nothing! I am not blaming her for my relapse, its actually exactly what she said she didn’t want to happen is that I quit for her and the first fight we get in I go back to the pills. It appeared that way but it was a giant build up and a very bad setup to begin with. I was almost destiny to fail the way I was mentally at the time, my wife and son leaving was still was fresh, she wouldn’t talk to me I and had all erratic behavior which lead my mind to make all sorts of crazy conclusions.
Its been enough process and think a lot and not be so emotional and up and down. Also I have been able to understand some of the things she is doing still not all. I also didn’t have all of the detox meds I needed to complete the entire process. I am giving quitting another shot over the upcoming long weekend and will succeed again, of course that is not the tough part staying off them is the hardest. I am prepared for all sorts of curveballs and I am not going to let myself go off the deep end again. Hopefully once I can show her I am not using again she will talk to me and come home with my son.
I am so sorry for the long post but as I said I am here in a big house with no wife and son and I haven't had anyone to talk to specifcially to talk about this stuff. God I have so much more to said and there is so much more history and facts that are so important to try and understand but any advise is welcome and thank you all again for all the posts they helped more tha you know!!!!!
Her counseler is off by telling her not to talk with you. But, if you getting started is what they are waiting for then, there is your choice. Theres a new sitcom on thats on talking about compromise. "My wife wants a cat, I don't. We compromised. We got a cat. I've been married 24 years with the same kind of compromise. Ha Ha. I know your deal is very serious, but get you family back together. I was never a meeting kind of a guy, but if you are use that tool. I think your wife's counselor is nuts, because you two could be stronger together.
I can understand the bad influence of her parents too. Mine are now dead, and I am only now recovering from their abusive influence on me.
I quit Cocoine, by deciding in my mind that I would literally "die" if I ever snorted another line. I truly believe that and I haven't snorted a line since I decided that. I'm not going to bore you with my Miami stories in the Cocaine Cowboy days, but I was a bouncer and bodyguard (to coke dealers) in Miami in the late 70s early 80s. There is a Cocaine thread here where I put more detail, but I won't punish you any more.
suggestions, etc. here.
Hope to see your new post. I can share my experience with Suboxone, but do not feel it proper to do it here. Hope you understand.
Not to say I'm right, I'm only going on what I've read so far, and not everything is there.
First, the odds aren't in your favor, I hate to say. Most couples don't survive this kind of thing. It is possible though.
Yes, when in treatment, it's common for the people surrounding the person they're involved with helping to "close ranks" against the other partner. There is a logic to this. When going through treatment you don't know where you'll end up, and the assumption is your rebuilding a person back up. Unfortunately, that doesn't always mean they'll keep aspects of their old life (like a husband or wife). But if they express a desire to have you a part of the treatment, then you should be there.
And if you're still using, they will tell her not to associate with you. Now, I did suggest time apart to adjust. But I was talking about a few weeks at the beginning. But you DO have a child together, and whether she likes it or not, that ties you together. She has to deal with you eventually.
Don't push her on her treatment path. It'll just alienate her. As long as it's working, leave it at that.
BUT, it would be a good idea if you started couple's therapy. If they're telling her not to speak to you, she can't object to this aspect of YOUR treatment. Unless she's totally writing off your marriage, and we aren't assuming that. If you haven't guessed, I'm an advocate of SOME form of therapy, even if it's intense self-analysis (Sit home and ream Plato, Aristotle, Rousseau and reflect! :) ) well, maybe not Rousseau...bad choice for an addict???
You may think you don't need it, but you need something. After all, if you were fine, you wouldn't be here. But you should start a dialogue with her, otherwise she will possibly leave you behind. Remember, from her perspective, the attitude that "I can just stop and be fine" won't cut it. She has years of teaching from AA, and you aren't going to convince her of otherwise until years have passed. By her view, you're in danger and a danger to her and your child. You can't change that, but you can change how she sees you.
I got a little lost in where you are exactly now. Have you stopped, or are you still taking something daily?
That's actually roxy30blues biggest danger here. His wife has accepted NA as a core belief/faith system and he's either opposed or at least obviously indifferent to it. She'll resent this and everything he does will be tainted by his lack of acceptance of this. Unless this problem is resolved, it doesn't speak well for hope of reconciliation.
Retireddm - Obviously the past is the past and I would be glad to put it away and just work on the problem now we are facing, however I believe some of the process is figuring out how you got to this place to avoid it from happening again. For example, she was right and proved herself right when she said if I don’t quit for myself the first fight we had I would go right back to the pills, which I did. However she and my son just left me and said they weren’t coming home for awhile before, I just cold turkey quit again, there was a lot of other issues and problems that I had not deal with or accepted yet. She wouldn’t talk to me if I was using so that weekend I quit, without any preparation, mentally or physically, I had not "Program" in place for any aftercare or theropy I needed. So when she stopped talking to me again after I was clean because I she wasn't ready and I was far enough in my sobriety, I lost it.
Where I am now is, I have my doctoring weaning my down and plan to switch to Subutex this weekend. I am seeing an addiction counselor that is not an AA or NA "pro" doctor, however does support that treatment in some cases just not all. Therefore I feel comfortable he is the correct person to assist in my aftercare. I am very much for treatment and therapy just not AA for me. I still feel any treatment without the support of your spouse is doomed or the cards severely stacked against you. This is still my biggest fear.
Savas you post is what I was afraid to hear the most, but thanks for being honest. I will never accept NA as my core belief system and make my life center around it. It will never come before my family or my wife as the program asks. I understand the idea of if your don’t choose the program you will lose your family anyways, however I don't agree. Being a using and successfully justifying my use to everyone and everybody including myself for a long time, I know and many of you will admit the core ingredient is truly wanting and committing to quitting. IF you don’t want to quit you can go through all the programs and treatments as you want and will end up back using. I hope I can convince her to appreciate where the program has got her but now there may be some modifications or compromises that she needs to make to make our marriage work and provide a normal stable home for our son. Of course I would never expect her to come home if I am still using, but at least talk to me. Like many of you suggested, doing this alone without some support would be impossible. We moved to Florida for her family all of mine are in the Northeast, so I am truly alone to go through this. AT this point just knowing she would be there when I am clean would be enough incentive to at least push me through the hard parts, but she can’t tell me that per the counselor because she can’t have anything to do with me quitting. I did suggest couple therapy at least so we can ensure we are communicating correctly to each other and she won’t do that, I think because she will have to talk to me.
The other point I can't agree more with and I think AA has right is that God needs to be first and back in you lives. Every time my life started taking a bad turn I have gone back to church and my life has improved significantly, then of course like everyone when it’s good you abandon God again. I am going to try and not do that this time around because I have a little guy around now who I need to set a great example for and ensure God is in his life from the beginning. I actually suggested we at least go to church together as a family, she said no, which I think because we would have to talk to each other. I even suggested driving separately, just walking in together and she can leave right after and you can’t talk in church so I thought it was a good idea. No response to that either.
Sometimes I am at a lost to if she even wants the marriage to work or if the people around her has her convinced that it can’t work so worry about yourself now and what will be, will be of him. I hope that is not the case, we took vows before God, she was a wonderful wife and my best friend before the drugs entered our lives and I believe I was the same for her. We have always been there for each other and figured no matter how bad this got, we loved each other so much and had a child together that we would make it through. I never thought I would be doing this alone with not even an ounce of support from my wife. However, with everyone telling me it’s over and move on its hard to do. I still want this to work out, I will clean up and get my life in order, I am determined of that. Even if my marriage doesn’t work out, I cannot ever go into a new relationship like this or ever be the parent I need to be like this. I just hope my future is with her, but there is something that is hard to undo and everyday I feel we grow further apart. We created this mess together over the last 2 years if we spend the next 6 months apart cleaning ourselves up, I don’t think we will have patched up enough of the relationship for it to ever work. IF the marriage is going o work after you have to do this together.
Thanks again everyone - Please suggestions on what to do now are very much needed.
What is the thomas' recipe? You situation sounded so close to mine I am very interested in what method you use to quit.
Prior to her not speaking to me again, whenever anything is discussed related to real world problems like our mortgage or car payment or any other problem from the life she abandoned my wife says she can't handle that right now on top of dealing with staying sober. I do not have that luxury I have to keep working and trying to climb out of the financial hole we made together. Also, she is on Suboxone now which she has to get weekly from the doctor (which I can’t believe they actually increased her dose last week????), therefore the option to use again is also not there because anyone who has stupidly tried to take a oxy while on Suboxone knows you go into horrific withdrawals.
I certainly understand a person needs time to focus on recovery and to be strong in the early stages, however I think too much isolation from the real world is counterproductive, as many of those real life problems are triggers for use, whether it is the stress of bills, fighting with a spouse when working through marital issues, etc and the real question is how is she going to do when she has free will again or even a choice. What will happen when she doesn’t have her mom keeping her on lock down. Her mother who lived with a heroin addict in the program for 28 years should know this method doesn’t have good results once the addict is given there freedom back. They have her believing that if she had the choice and lived with me she would 100% use again within a week, but on the other hand can lecture me on how far she is in her sobriety.
I don’t mind the bills and financial mess that I am left to clean up alone, but as I keep referring too are the marriage that is being ignored and the effect that will have on our child if it ends. I asked her mother, when her 90 days are up and or whatever time she is ready to reenter life on her own, is she going to be strong enough to do that as a single mom living in an apartment or house be herself with a baby to raise on her own. She had the benefit of being a stay at home mom and I could support us both, if this marry ends I really don’t think she understands the life she will be going back into that they are leading her into. I know that she has not been allowed to even think that far ahead; she just needs to focus on today. That theory works I think if others (specifically a spouse and child) who are impacted by your decisions.
I even told her I am not asking for much, I don't want long conversations about our marriage or negative past issues. All I want is so normal discussions, what I really what is just to hear her voice and that she still loves me and wants the same end result still, which is our family back together. I'm just not sure how to get her to talk to me and reopen a line of communication no matter how little. I told her I would be willing to wait no matter how long it took 6 months whatever, I just need to hear "she loves me still and wants to be a family again, if we are both cleaned up" she said she can't tell me that right now. Does that means she doesn't know if she wants to be with me anymore or she can't tell me because that is what her counselor is telling to say at this point because she can't be the reason for my stopping? But, this is just one of the crazy confusing issues that I am left to guess about what the real answer is and I must make my decisions based on my guess of her silence or her robotic quote she will give me from her counselor.
We talked everyday for 12 plus years, I don’t know how she can go this long without talking to me, when its eating me up. If I was in her shoes, further along in the process I would be trying to help my wife get and stay clean. Now I realize that may not mean moving back home or at all be my counselor because I am sure she is not strong enough for herself yet never mind me, nor is she the right person to be my counselor through this. I assume an I love you and I am proud of you should be allowed and she should want to say those things. Like I said I am not asking for much just a tiny glimpse of my wife or little evidence she wants this to work out. The one thing I know that she has said bothered her is, that I haven’t quit yet. I do believe she resents the fact I am still using (probably jealous in a way , especially when she gets cravings) however I am going to detox again this weekend and hopefully stay clean this time. She was forced to go into treatment when she did because she failed a drug test. She has no job, no bills (very little), her mother watched the baby). I have a job and other responsibilities, I know there is never the perfect or even a good time to quit and there will always be a reason not to quit but there are slightly better times, meaning getting fired or now to wait a few weeks. Also, I finally detoxed a couple weeks ago and like I said when she still wouldn’t talk to me, I lost it and went right back. I am in a much better mental place now and have aftercare setup to ensure that doesn’t happen again . But even if she resented me and was upset and taking it personal I didn’t quit yet, I would hope that her counselor and personally could love me enough and see through that since she has been on the addict trying to detox and stay clean side of the game. I just can’t figure out where she is coming from on this no communication issue. If anyone has any suggestions on how to get through to her and past what her counselor is suggesting she do?
Are you seeing the child now? At all? Can you? If not, if she's denying you your legal RIGHT. My advice for what it's worth, is to tell her "If you won't discuss our relationship at all, fine. But we need to set up a visitation schedule."
I don't care what her counselor or mother says, you have a LEGAL right to see your son. And if either of them says otherwise, it's a court-going situation which they will lose (unless you are still using). If you are still using, by her NA logic, you are unapproachable and undealwithable, so hope it's just that on her end. But you should stop. The Thomas recipe is a mix of med's, the chief one being a blood pressure medication like clonidine.
I can tell your frustrated and angry about all this and you've got a right to be. But if you keep trying to force the issue with her, you will lose. You know the old saying;
"If you love something, set it free.
If it loves you it will come back to you.
If it doesn't come back you never owned it.
(We'll leave out the old joke of "And if it doesn't come back, hunt it down and kill it!!!")
Well, it's corny, but it applies. You probably see what I'm saying and are nodding your head, but it's one thing to see this intellectually and another to know it in your heart, and apply it in those moments of anger and frustration.
Lets face it, she likes to be controlled. She's got a controlling mother, and you sound like you've got a bit of a control freak in you too (welcome to the club).
But she's chosen to let her MOTHER control her life right now. My advice is only talk to her when she wants to (unless it's about the kid) and DON'T give her anything, money or otherwise. Just smile and say "I'm sorry, according to your program, that would be wrong, and possibly enabling." And DO NOT sound smug when you say it. Sing it like you mean it. As if you understand her philosophy and while you don't agree with it, you do respect it.
This way, at least if you lose her, you'll do it with dignity.
Take it, Bunny!
Hi Roxy,
Let me first say, I totally sympathize. I have been through some similar stuff, maybe I can provide some insight. First of all, years ago I split up with my husband to get clean and get our lives straight. We did it separately and got back together months later which worked for years (we did split up but it was years later for different reasons and we are still friends). Anyway, my point is, that sometimes things work out in ways you don't expect. Try not to insist that you know exactly what has to happen (like, you have to work it out together, now, in the same place and at the same rate). Try not to script your lives, open yourself to what she needs and maybe what you need that you are not aware of right now.
Also, if you are alone right now, take advantage of it. It seems like you are on the right track. Stay that way, continue to improve your life. She might be so impressed and surprised that she will want to get back with you. Instead of stating to her what you will do, just do it and let her see. Not to mention her family. Sometimes you have to be patient and show people that you are serious. I know that when you get clean and mean it, it seems like everything should happen just right, but it might not. Life is like that, even when you are clean - no one will reward you. I know it's tough, but it's true.
Now, my current husband sometimes tries to force situations. He loves me so much and wants everything to be right, but he is learning that it doesn't always happen immediately and the way he wants it (understand he is a very gentle guy, but he is a guy and likes to fix things like all guys do!). I love him and I understand, but if I were in a vulnerable place I would prefer that he just listen and give me some space rather than try to fix things and make everything be OK.
Maybe some of this applies to you? Anyway, good luck and take care of yourself and your son.
Bunny
This is Savas again:
Argh...women. Can't even get any peace or privacy when I'm on the computer! See how I suffer people?!?! Just not bloody fair! Uh-huh...that looks like a large baseball bat she's got...gotta run-literally!!! :)
As a person who spent almost two decades in NA I can say that the only couples I saw who made it together are the ones who worked their own program.
They each had a sponsor, who had them working different programs all with the same goal, perosonal recovery. Whatever that means to each individual.
In those almost two decades, I have to say I saw maybe a handful of couples who made it. Not many. But that isn't to say you two cant be one couple who makes it.
You must be committed. You have to each have your own sponsor and work your individual programs.
Im speaking from experience and from what Ive seen. If both parties dont do this, couples, no matter what the love or how strong, end up not making it. If both are committed though, Ive seen couples blossom into a love that is unbelievable and so strong.
I wish this for you two.
tzt
Which brings the next very touchy point, my son. Yes I see him and have him for the weekends. Which now I actually spend more time with him than when we were together because instead of the hour or two a night I see him because of work and then in and out normal type weekend routine, I am so excited to see him and he I from the moment I see him on Friday afternoon until he is crying when I drop him off at daycare I spend every second of the entire time with him, it very intense quality time together and its my fuel that gets me up every morning. Since I work and my son just started day care when I wife when to rehab this last time, her mother watched the baby and until my wife got out she made it very difficult for me to see my son. Luckily it was under a week. It was always too late to come over or she didn’t think something was a good idea. Well, this has taking a serious toll on him even at his age, the biggest thing not being home and the pick up and drop off situations. The first 2 or 3 times I left him over his grandmother and he was screaming daddy as I walked out, I cried all the way home, because I when back to him at first which made it worst. Now, unfortunately, I just turn and walk away quickly. I tried sneaky out in the beginning which totally backfired because not only is the separation and not have a stable home tough, he is scarred to death I am going to leave him when I am with him. From Friday, it takes until about Saturday afternoon before I can get a drink or go to the bathroom without him running after me to make sure I don’t leave. That I can’t stand. I offered for her to move back home and me to move out just so he can feel comfortable in his home but no go! Instead she asked me if I could watch the way I use “home” because his grandmother said we are going home when they went to Target and when they got back to her house instead of mine he went nuts. That’s not fair to do to him. Plus he hasn’t seen us together even friendly interacting in awhile.
Things I have seen tear people apart are that one is more committed to recovery than the other AND
OR one or both discover that they have grown into two very different people.
Those who I have seen stay together fell in love before the addiction and in recovery have been respectful of each others recovery, not jealous if their mate spent time out with his or her sponsor, and did not tell each other how to recover.
Its hard for me to put this in laymans terms without using Narcotics Anonymous lingo.
In NA terms, those who took their own inventories of character assets and liabilities and NOT their mates, seemed to stay together and have an awesome relationship.
Its like they work on their own issues independently and then come together to enjoy the fruits of that labor.
I dont know if Im making sense to you but I do know what I have seen over the years.
I just read a bit of one of your earlier posts. PLEASE dont think your wifes dad is an example of the NA program. HE is not. Im not saying this in an aggressive way, its just that I have at least 6 friends within a five milie radius who each have twenty years clean from all drugs, INCLUDING alcohol, thanks to NA.
If you want to let another persons experience define what the NA program is for you, you might miss the benefits of actually DOING what is suggested. It is so much more than reading steps. It is working steps with a sponsor, changing, learning, growning. You find out why you used in the first place and why you keep wanting to use. Of course its up to you and I do wish you the best in whatever program you choose.
I\
Best of all to you two,
After college, we moved back home, which now everyone we knew were on drugs or soon to be including her family and a few of mine. We had busy professionally lives for the first several years then got married still perfect love story ending just needed a few kids. We moved into my house I built with my dad together as a investment, he lived with us our first 8 months of marriage, then her cousin lived with use the next year and a half and then her sister next 4 months. The never should have let anyone live with us specifically that early. It was the first time we weren't tied at the hip and going in different directions. She did her own thing with her cousin on did my own thing with my dad then her brother. Her brother is where the drugs started from, which had been on them since we started dating but I started spending a lot of time with and it started slowly then the story is all the same and meaningless from this point on.
What do you think are chances are now?
I know I am not even close to the man she married and a lot of the qualities that attracted her to me and made her love me so much I have not shown in quite awhile, and I do believe you are right in staying once she sees that guy again and those qualities again she will want to get back together. I’m confident of that. As much as I can knock myself because I can, I am ashamed of what I have let me self become and I am a disappointment to myself the most, a giant disappointment. I also know I can rebound from this and become a good honorable man again someone to be proud of and this will be one more thing tat was horrific in my life that I went through and persevered. I did have a very hard life and way set and expected for failure but somehow made it, then basically let my selfish decisions with these pills bring me to the verge of complete ruination. During the process, I kept my job no matter how hard and I truly believe I was a good father. I could have been better of course without doubt but I tried never to let them effect our relationship or time. I didn’t heavily use when with him. But I also had limited time with him to give her credit. I did put him in danger except by leaving him with his mother , which I guess makes me just as bad as her and I think that is the first time I have ever said that or thought that which just saved me typing 5 paragraphs on how bad she was and how badly emotionally neglected our son was. But I protected my wife and did nothing and therefore am no better. Wow!!
Obviously, I am not back to that guy yet so its tough to talk about this with any certainly, however just as she won’t talk about anything down the road I am constantly reconciling who this works with the future and I can see this being bad. Yes I fell far but I also went an unbelievable way to get there and more importantly during last few years certain crucial things for a relationship I still kept like my loyalty to my wife against anyone and anything I stood by her I protected her which came back to bite me in the butt as I knew it would. I stood by her against my family and hers, I also took her side. I believed in her when no one else did and her family fired her and basically signed her off. However how did she response to trouble? She admitted (when sober) she destroyed my name to deflect any blame or attention to herself. She didn’t stickup for me but joined to get the pity vote and ultimately on countless situations she always takes her family over me no matter what. Now during what may be the hardest time of my life, to clean up, rebuild financially and regain my respect and confident she turns her back and is going to make me do it alone and go start fresh with her family’s support. My question is do I want that person back drugs or no drugs did she show her true colors now that times are tough? Sure she wanted to be with me when I was on top of the world. When using you can write everything off as just that, no matter how bad it is because that is not you. Well her turning her back on me like this. I think you are right move on and just see what happens!
Anger : "Why ME? It's not fair?!" (either referring to God, oneself, or anybody perceived, rightly or wrongly, as "responsible")
Bargaining : "Just let me live to see my son graduate."
Depression : "I'm so sad, why bother with anything?"
Acceptance : "It's going to be OK."
You know, this trial separation sounds like it may be good for you. I hate to say it, but your wife sounds like she needs to develop some maturity and backbone to stand on her own. Everything you say about her (and I know, we're just getting your side of it, so it's possibly skewed) sounds like she's spent her whole life being looked after and protected.
The best thing she could do is spend time away from EVERYONE, learn what it's like to be her own person. Blaming you to her family for things that have gone wrong is classic behavior of someone who isn't secure in their own maturity as an adult. She doesn't sound like she's capable of making serious life decisions right now, regardless of her addiction.
And I know that's hard to hear, you want her back so badly, want the person you loved back now! But if she came back now, you'd just have an illusion, a happiness that would be the calm before the storm.
Your child is about 4 years? Tough age for all this. I don't know if you've talked to anyone "professional" about this, but it's crucial you take steps here. Your best bet is to try to keep up what your doing. Keep the play dates you make, on a regular schedule. He's desperate for structure right now, and stability. Also, try not to let all this spill over in front of him. Be careful how you speak about his mother in front of him, try to only say positive things. Watch out for your tone and inference too, children are sensitive and pick up on this stuff. Also, try to make sure mom and mom's mom does this AS WELL (There's a reason children are referred to as casualties in divorce). Especially casual conversation with your son around. Some of the worst damage is done to a child's psyche this way. The best thing you can do is make it seem like all this was planned, it's supposed to be this way. And if you can step back and accept the situation, be okay with the hopefully temporary separation, he'll pick up on that and calm down. Children aren't dumb. I'll bet he's picking up on your anxiety and stress. If you just smile and act relaxed about leaving, with an "oh, I'll be back Wednesday as usual!" attitude, it will probably help alot. He's probably more upset over the tension between you two than the seperation.
Try not to be to hard on yourself. The hardest thing to cope with, is it took time to get into this mess, and it will probably take the same amount of time to get out!
I was in an incredibly miserable engagement (for me) and broke it off with the decision of not dating for at least a year!
But we met a month into our "monastic lives and well... 15 years later, and here we are!
She's an old hat at this sort of thing. She used to work for SHANTI back in the early 80's, which is about the hardest counseling work you can do. (Counseling to end stage AIDS patients. Brutal stuff). I did my degree in Child Psychology-Abnormal Psych, (double majored with Philosophy) and at the time I think we both decided it was just too much suffering to eat on a daily basis. Interesting the decisions you make in life. Makes you wonder what would of happened if you did "this" instead of "that". But to much of that, and I'll end up down at Central Park feeding pigeons and mumbling to myself all day!!!
Remember, using the drugs is toxic to our bodies. Love means helping each other to grow and be the best we can be. I think you two will be fine.
Thanks for sharing your story, I can tell you love her dearly. I wish the best for you two
tzt
What you said here is my situation I feel its me and her:
“And I know that's hard to hear, you want her back so badly, want the person you loved back now! But if she came back now, you'd just have an illusion, a happiness that would be the calm before the storm.”
Sorry for all that but background is important and once I get going, I obviously have a ton built up. Back to my ultimate point which is the baby needs to be home in his environment and not going from grandmother Monday through Thursday with mom and the weekend with Dad. He is so confused I see it in his eyes and his actions and his demeanor. I also seem him glow when he comes home and go into a fit and get SO upset the whole morning he is leaving because he knows its coming now.
I often think that the hardest thing a parent faces is not transferring all the bad things you learned or had happen to you in your own childhood onto your own children. No matter how hard we try, it inevitably happens. How can it not? Your experiences make you what you are. Half the time, you aren't even aware you're doing it.
Let me just say that keep in mind that what I'm giving here is advice based on what you write (there's no personal interface). Don't confuse it with professional therapy. While I hope we all can help, and this sort of thing is great for helping you work through it, beware of "tearing off" and doing something rash based on anything anyone says here (I know, you aren't an idiot. But I've seen more people do more damage in there life after having a few drinks with "friends" who give "terrific advice", especially by the fourth drink, and then going to confront someone. Hey, I've even done it!)
And you alpha guys are right up there with this. It doesn't take much to rev you up and set you off on a path, and let the chips fall where they may! It usually ends up with you sitting there, everyone mad at you, and you with that slightly stupid confused look on your face going "Wait, I meant well!!!" (God, been there to. Daily.) I suppose I'm speaking on "patience" here again. Which is ironic for me, since I'm being "required" to apply this very thing over the next year and a half due to a situation of my own making. Being told if I take action, things will go badly. Just wait it out. Goes against the very grain.
I'm not sure how old you are exactly, or how long your marriage has been going on, but it does sound like you've reached the point both where all the good things and bad that make up both of you are coming to a head. It's a crucial time for you both, and whether you try to break old bonds and make yourself into something better and new or just circle continually in the same pattern, stuck in the same behaviour, is...well, up to you. True change rarely happens when you're happy and things are going well. (This actually applies to everyone at some time).
And watch out for this; I bet you're feeling like you're being expected to have heroic amounts of restraint, compassion, and understanding with everyone. You're expected to rise above it all, earn for yourself and your family. Be a wonderful father. A good husband. And most of the time...you say "That's fine, I can do it!"
But then you start resenting all this, and eventually it explodes out in a flash of frustration.
Your right, everyone does take it for granted. Why not? You put yourself across this way. So you have to choose if your going to really "Be" that person, and not complain and just be "A Hero", or just be an everyday person with weaknesses imperfections. The two don't work together well.
I can't speak for your other half and her people. I HOPE they're doing the right thing, but sadly, even if they aren't you have very little control over it (really know that, it's important). The most you can do is damage control. Like I said before, the rules are different with a child. The best thing you can do for your son is be honest with him, and try to make sure you don't express any of this towards him. Because he can't choose sides, it will kill him inside.
I'm not an expert on toddler therapy, but if he starts developing panic attacks, night terrors, regression, acting out, anything like that, you may want to get him into a play therapy situation. It can be enormously helpful. Until he regains trust of his parents (it's likely brittle right now) it will give him an objective, unopinionated adult role model (without connected emotional baggage) who can be an anchor until he mentally stabilizes. I know, you want to be that person right now, and I'm sure you will be in time, but your son has so much stress and worry focused around his parents that it just may not be possible at this moment.
I'm not saying he needs this now, what you've been describing is fairly normal. But it's something to keep in mind should his emotional condition deteriorate.
(If cost is an issue, it's not uncommon for therapist groups to offer "scholarship" so to speak for children.)
Were you a nurse in SF during that time? They seemed to be the one place that really got on board with the whole situation. I was in LA during that time, so didn't see the worst of it first hand. But I remember the fear in the acting community (took a break from college, was working the comedy circuit in NY with a friend for fun and we got "picked up" for a movie and flown out to LA. Which obviously didn't work out, or I'd be hobnobbing with celebrities and "snubbing the little people!" Ah, who am I kidding, we'd have been third rate celebrities, at best! Fourth, even!