Aa
Dutchess I need advise
Hi Dutchess I have read your posts and it seems you may have an answer for me. I am a catch 22. I have fibromyalgia and other pain syndromes. I have Hep C. I am a 52 year old female married mother of 3 grown children. I started with migraines in my early 20's. I then had 2 TMJ sugeries late twenties. I had worn a hole in the meniscus, he replaced it with a graft from inside my temporal area. Dutchess, as of a few years ago my TMJ Is not recognizable on MRI! The radiologist called me in and said MY God what happened to you? Well I am now, bone on bone. I have burning neck pain. I get botoxed for my migriaines, it works. I am on oxy 30 bid and Norco 7.5 bid for my pain. It is NOT working. I will NOT go up on oxy cause it makes me SO damn tired. I have begged my doc to give me 3-4 norco. I KNOW this will work cause this is what I took to be comfortable and so I used up 1/2 a months meds. I have been on these meds 7+ years. I Know my body is dependent AND I know I have a psychological dependence but I am NOT increasing my dose to chase a high I am increasing my dose to help my pain so I can FUNCITON> I have a daughter who just detoxed off LARGE amounts of oxy. I am feeling like I should not be taking this stuff. I am SO confused and in so much pain. I also cannot stop sweating. All the time. I am on hormone replacement. SOmeone in the group was kind enough to suggest I may have NO natural hormones, hysterectomy/oophorectomy. Could it be that or do you think its the meds? I DONT FEEL GOOD!!! I am SO sick of it. I need help. Can you help?
It is absolutely possible that you are producing very little of your own natural hormones. What hormone replacements have you been taking? Are you on both estrogen and progesterone?
Your Dr. is not giving you more norco because of the risk of toxicity to your liver due to the acetaminophen (tylenol). The risk of fatal hepatoxicity is much greater since your liver is already compromised. This is why your doctor put you on norco instead of vicodin or lortab (most of the brands of these drugs typically contain 500mg tylenol or more per pill) I am assuming that your norco's are 10/325? 10mg hydrocodone/325mg tylenol (APAP, acetaminophen) If not, it might be time for a new Doc! No one with any liver problems should be taking more tylenol than that. 10-15,000mg of tylenol in a 24 hr. period often causes severe hepatoxicity and doses of 15-20,000mg tylenol in a 24 hr. period have been fatal. This is also why your doctor put you on oxycodone, it has no tylenol.
You might want to ask your doctor about a more pure form of hydrocodone if the norco helps. There are hydrocodone pills and liquids with no tylenol. There should be 10mg of hydrocodone in your norco, so you have been taking 40-50mg? Even the most recent edition of the PDR says that in opiate tolerant patients, norco can be taken up to 12 times per day. That would be 120mg of hydocodone, but the amount of tylenol in that could potentially be fatally toxic to your liver. SO don't take more norco than prescribed b/c of your hep. C, just make sure you get to your doctor to ask about more pure forms of hydrocodone. For instance, I take tussionex, whick is a 12 hour extended release of hydrocodone polistirix and an antihistamine that is most commonly prescrobed for cough, cold and flu and upper respiratory symptoms. Each teaspoon contains 10mg hydrocodone and 8mg chlorpheniramine( this is an aniti-histamine commonly used in dimetapp over the counter) Contrary to what most believe, opiates are incredibly safe and not destructive to the body. They can compromise the immune system, but not permanently. Quitting c/t is much more damaging to the body than taking a regular dose of opiates for years, many people take the same dose for life to manage pain with no damage to the body. And dependency is actually pretty rare in patients being treated for acute or chronic pain when maintained on the prescribed dose.
Another alternative would be switching to a different opiate that is not combined with tylenol like mophine or hydromorphone(dilaudid). The hydromorphone will probably make you even more tired than the oxycodone as will something like demerol. However, your body might respond better to one of these. It sounds like you respond very well to the hydrocodone, you just need it in a combination without tylenol.
I hope this is helpful
xoxo- D.
Your Dr. is not giving you more norco because of the risk of toxicity to your liver due to the acetaminophen (tylenol). The risk of fatal hepatoxicity is much greater since your liver is already compromised. This is why your doctor put you on norco instead of vicodin or lortab (most of the brands of these drugs typically contain 500mg tylenol or more per pill) I am assuming that your norco's are 10/325? 10mg hydrocodone/325mg tylenol (APAP, acetaminophen) If not, it might be time for a new Doc! No one with any liver problems should be taking more tylenol than that. 10-15,000mg of tylenol in a 24 hr. period often causes severe hepatoxicity and doses of 15-20,000mg tylenol in a 24 hr. period have been fatal. This is also why your doctor put you on oxycodone, it has no tylenol.
You might want to ask your doctor about a more pure form of hydrocodone if the norco helps. There are hydrocodone pills and liquids with no tylenol. There should be 10mg of hydrocodone in your norco, so you have been taking 40-50mg? Even the most recent edition of the PDR says that in opiate tolerant patients, norco can be taken up to 12 times per day. That would be 120mg of hydocodone, but the amount of tylenol in that could potentially be fatally toxic to your liver. SO don't take more norco than prescribed b/c of your hep. C, just make sure you get to your doctor to ask about more pure forms of hydrocodone. For instance, I take tussionex, whick is a 12 hour extended release of hydrocodone polistirix and an antihistamine that is most commonly prescrobed for cough, cold and flu and upper respiratory symptoms. Each teaspoon contains 10mg hydrocodone and 8mg chlorpheniramine( this is an aniti-histamine commonly used in dimetapp over the counter) Contrary to what most believe, opiates are incredibly safe and not destructive to the body. They can compromise the immune system, but not permanently. Quitting c/t is much more damaging to the body than taking a regular dose of opiates for years, many people take the same dose for life to manage pain with no damage to the body. And dependency is actually pretty rare in patients being treated for acute or chronic pain when maintained on the prescribed dose.
Another alternative would be switching to a different opiate that is not combined with tylenol like mophine or hydromorphone(dilaudid). The hydromorphone will probably make you even more tired than the oxycodone as will something like demerol. However, your body might respond better to one of these. It sounds like you respond very well to the hydrocodone, you just need it in a combination without tylenol.
I hope this is helpful
xoxo- D.
Hi Dutchess thanks for you most detalied and most appreciated post to me!
I knew that the Norco had less tylenol, I do try to be very conscious about my liver. I am only allowed 7.5 mg per my doc. So if I STOP the oxy at 30 twice a day, it will be replaced by FOUR 7.5 norcos. Does that sound right? I need Four 10 mg norco that would be 13,000 tylenol per day. Too much?
As for hydrocodone yes it is the drug that agrees with me most. Is Tussinex the only medication that has is wtihout tylenol? I have had that for cough.
Is there a pill of straight up hydro?
I had a hysterectomy so I dont get any progesterone. I am vivelle dot estrogen patch 0.05. The patches are liver friendly. I was on the highest dose then came down 2 doses. The higher doses cause breast tenderness (bad). What else would make someone sweat all the time. I have never had hot flashed this bad...i dont even have to feel hot I just start sweating> What could it be. ? I has me very worried. Also my legs...OMG how my legs pain me. I did the Interferon/Ribvarin in 1998. IT about killed me!!! I had to stop treatmetn at 5 months cause I was anorexic and could not sleep and my blood count was down so low. I did NOT lose the virus. :( I was one of 50 in a study. 48 of 50 cleared the virus I was one of the 2. I have NOT been right since, physically or emotionally. I have told my liver guy this and he laughs. ITS NOT FUNNY. I Do blame those nasty drugs...I dont know which was worse but it was the worst time of my entire life.
Ok I can take up to 12 pills a day and be ok? And no more than 15,000 tylenol. I have to get a new doc. He is SO stuck in his thinking he wont budge. But finding someone who will listen is close to impossible. Especially where narcotics are concerned. He took over for my Pain management but he has changed to regimen. thanks SO much for helping me!!!! Lotusflower
I knew that the Norco had less tylenol, I do try to be very conscious about my liver. I am only allowed 7.5 mg per my doc. So if I STOP the oxy at 30 twice a day, it will be replaced by FOUR 7.5 norcos. Does that sound right? I need Four 10 mg norco that would be 13,000 tylenol per day. Too much?
As for hydrocodone yes it is the drug that agrees with me most. Is Tussinex the only medication that has is wtihout tylenol? I have had that for cough.
Is there a pill of straight up hydro?
I had a hysterectomy so I dont get any progesterone. I am vivelle dot estrogen patch 0.05. The patches are liver friendly. I was on the highest dose then came down 2 doses. The higher doses cause breast tenderness (bad). What else would make someone sweat all the time. I have never had hot flashed this bad...i dont even have to feel hot I just start sweating> What could it be. ? I has me very worried. Also my legs...OMG how my legs pain me. I did the Interferon/Ribvarin in 1998. IT about killed me!!! I had to stop treatmetn at 5 months cause I was anorexic and could not sleep and my blood count was down so low. I did NOT lose the virus. :( I was one of 50 in a study. 48 of 50 cleared the virus I was one of the 2. I have NOT been right since, physically or emotionally. I have told my liver guy this and he laughs. ITS NOT FUNNY. I Do blame those nasty drugs...I dont know which was worse but it was the worst time of my entire life.
Ok I can take up to 12 pills a day and be ok? And no more than 15,000 tylenol. I have to get a new doc. He is SO stuck in his thinking he wont budge. But finding someone who will listen is close to impossible. Especially where narcotics are concerned. He took over for my Pain management but he has changed to regimen. thanks SO much for helping me!!!! Lotusflower
Hunny I am so sorry you have had to go through all of this mess (to put it very lightly!) Interferon is NO JOKE! That medication is extremely potent and has very severe risks. Do you know what genotype of Hep C you have? The combination they used with you- interferon & ribavirin have sustained cure rates of 75% or better in those with genotype 2 and 3 but less than 50% in those with genotype 1 which is most common in the US and western europe and is much harder to treat. Sustained cure rates mean that the viral levels can be greatly reduced, in some cases they can be reduced to where they are undetectable-this is what they refer to when they say "cure rates" since it is a virus it has no cure. We don't even have a cure for the common cold because it is a virus, all we can do is help the immune system fight it off. There is breakthrough research at the University of Washington conducted in January that they are predicting will lead to a vaccine for hep. C.
No tussionex is absolutely not the only hydrocodone preparation without tylenol! There are many of them, in pill and liquid form depending on where you live. There are not any US pharmaceutical companies that make pure hydrocodone preparations. Off the top of my head, BLG laboratories make a 7.5mg pill pure hydrocodone and a few other companies just not American companies. You sound a lot like me, my body responds best to hydrocodone also, I'd take hydrocodone over morphine or oxycodone any day! I'm pretty sick right now and I could have oxys, morphine, dilaudid, demerol, you name it, here in minutes. But I take my vicoprofen for pain and tussionex for cough and upper respiratory infections and allergy symptoms. I would not take that much tylenol a day if I were you. With your liver being compromised, even normally safe doses can possibly be toxic to your liver, meaning it could be potentially fatal! Most with hep. C take tylenol without much immediate dangers, but the number of patients my husband has had unnecessarily die due to hep C aggrevated by the use of tylenol is UNREAL! Since my husband is a doctor at a methadone clinic, the majority of the patients are of the heroin community. over 80% of the patients at this clinic are BOTH HIV & HepC pos. Over 98% are EITHER hep C or HIV pos or both. The ones that aren't are typically the ones addicted to pills.
There is a way to extract the hydrocodone from your norcos b/c it does have water soluable properties. This would be a much better idea, either that or take your oxycodone until you can get a hydrocodone rx without tylenol. Even though this is a public forum and we're not liable for advice taken here, I still would not tell you anything that I wouldn not tell my own patients...so please, keep the tylenol to an absolute minimom and take the oxycodone when you can, it's just too risky to your liver.
The sweating (now this is enough irony for all of us) there is evidence that your mu opiate receptors help regulate body temperature, hence the sweats and hot flashes in withdrawal. Have you tried black cohosh? An herb you can get over the counter at just about any local store. Many women use this for hot flushes during menopause or after hysterectomy. This is what started the research into black cohosh binding to certain mu opiate receptors in the brain. It has been successful in quite a few women I know so you might want to try it. The same thing happens to me in withdrawal, I sweat like crazy even when I don't feel hot.
Ok I feel like I'm forgetting something so let me know if there is something I forgot in this post and I know what you mean about finding a good doc. I was blessed with a very good doctor since I was little, I only see specialists. General practitioners are often doing the same types of things that your doc. now is doing.
xoxo- D.
No tussionex is absolutely not the only hydrocodone preparation without tylenol! There are many of them, in pill and liquid form depending on where you live. There are not any US pharmaceutical companies that make pure hydrocodone preparations. Off the top of my head, BLG laboratories make a 7.5mg pill pure hydrocodone and a few other companies just not American companies. You sound a lot like me, my body responds best to hydrocodone also, I'd take hydrocodone over morphine or oxycodone any day! I'm pretty sick right now and I could have oxys, morphine, dilaudid, demerol, you name it, here in minutes. But I take my vicoprofen for pain and tussionex for cough and upper respiratory infections and allergy symptoms. I would not take that much tylenol a day if I were you. With your liver being compromised, even normally safe doses can possibly be toxic to your liver, meaning it could be potentially fatal! Most with hep. C take tylenol without much immediate dangers, but the number of patients my husband has had unnecessarily die due to hep C aggrevated by the use of tylenol is UNREAL! Since my husband is a doctor at a methadone clinic, the majority of the patients are of the heroin community. over 80% of the patients at this clinic are BOTH HIV & HepC pos. Over 98% are EITHER hep C or HIV pos or both. The ones that aren't are typically the ones addicted to pills.
There is a way to extract the hydrocodone from your norcos b/c it does have water soluable properties. This would be a much better idea, either that or take your oxycodone until you can get a hydrocodone rx without tylenol. Even though this is a public forum and we're not liable for advice taken here, I still would not tell you anything that I wouldn not tell my own patients...so please, keep the tylenol to an absolute minimom and take the oxycodone when you can, it's just too risky to your liver.
The sweating (now this is enough irony for all of us) there is evidence that your mu opiate receptors help regulate body temperature, hence the sweats and hot flashes in withdrawal. Have you tried black cohosh? An herb you can get over the counter at just about any local store. Many women use this for hot flushes during menopause or after hysterectomy. This is what started the research into black cohosh binding to certain mu opiate receptors in the brain. It has been successful in quite a few women I know so you might want to try it. The same thing happens to me in withdrawal, I sweat like crazy even when I don't feel hot.
Ok I feel like I'm forgetting something so let me know if there is something I forgot in this post and I know what you mean about finding a good doc. I was blessed with a very good doctor since I was little, I only see specialists. General practitioners are often doing the same types of things that your doc. now is doing.
xoxo- D.
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