Goal is methadone to sub to nothing

[rich4dallas]

went to see my malpractice docter today told him i cut back on the methadone he was prescribing and swithched over to subs.. he appeard to be happy because hes thinking how he  much rather have me on the subs rather then the meth. Well to make a long back and forth
story short. I told him i picked about 15 subs on the street from a friend just to take the edge off from the meth. I told him i started a 14 day to 21 day sub detox. I told him I wanted to do the subs just long enough to get the meth out and not long enough to get hooked on subs.. My docter who I helped  get me addicted to methadone and whateverelse i want in the candy store,Thank god i didnt do to much shopping. He thinksim doing it all wrong., he says its  not long enough,and i will relapse back to the meth if i do it my way... he wants me on for it least 3=6months, And 1 Im not sure i agree with him.. why wouldnt i want off this **** asap?? please let me know your thouts about this...thanks..ood night good luck at ur meeting tomorrow.... keep fighting...Pleease advise me what to do...
thanks Rich4Dallas

[gnarly_1]

most people coming off methadone dont relaize the long post withdrawals you go threw typically its around 90 days b/4 you start to feel better thats why your doctor is suggesting the 90 day program and so do I theirs no point in feeling fine for 21 day only to come off and be in the grips of a methadone post withdrawal for the next 2 mo ......we have had members switch over fro 90 day keep there dose low taper as they go along and then jump successfully at 2mg.....right now you need to get into a program like N/A or A/A and work on your recovery plan no pill will fix your addictive thinking as addicts we need to change the very way we think and reason.....just you copping on the street is addictive behavior it needs to stop let your doctor prescribe the sub to you and ride it out mean wile work a program so your strong enough to stand on your own 2 feet when its time to come off the whole idea is to put your addiction on hold to get well in the mean time this takes work you get out of it what you put in I wish you all the best with your recovery but I think doc is right I came off 150mg of methadone the old fashion way and was sick for months good luck and God bless.......Gnarly  

[rich4dallas]

Thanks for the support.. much appreciated.
Just yesterday for the first time in my life I looked up NA programs on my own. I have been destroying my life with opiates for about 10 years.. Although obviously being on methadone for the past 7 years it least stablized my work life, but other then that I think it took away alot of my life. emotions, feelings, thinking, etc, etc,etc,etc, like a BIG FOG.. Yes I want to get myself into an NA program.. I feel like Im starting to get a little better physically..

I hear you about the methadone post withdrawal..but what concerns me is i hear that subs create PAWS as well..This is why im fighting back and forth with myself.. I feel like for the 1st time in years i want off, but i also do not want to be ignorant going about it.. to be honest I dont trust my doc. hes a bad docter.. so when he says to me hes concernd about me quitting  so fast.. Hes just thinking about all the money hes going to lose from me not having to go to him anymore.. I have never went to a clinic. Always to this bad docter.. But I certainly trust your opion and also alot of the other members on here.. this place has been my NA up to this point..
Thanks.. Rich4Dallas

[rich4dallas]

I just want to thank you for being a friend.. You seem to run this forum.. lol.. I have great respect for you. I have no idea how you make the time for every single person on here.. you are quite amazing...
Thank you so much.. I really appreciate your support and advice.

[atthebeach]

Hi I am the wife of a recovering addict.he is 57 yrs old. Used heroin in his 20s to 30s. Went to a rehab was then clean for 11 yrs. He started to use again not heroin but morphine pills.coke.oxys. this continued to 5 yrs. It definitely caused problems in our family and marriage. He lied.denied there was a problem again. He said I will go on methadone for 1 yr.my husband was a very functional addict. Always worked and hid his addiction well. I did not know about addiction and relapses. Didn't know methadone was a daily thing and so hard to get off. Well initally the meth worked no other drugs. Then 5 yrs into the methadone wafter he always denied he was still on it started to use xanax and drink. Things got way worse. Lies.deceit.stealing money.we have 4 children they lived through lots of fights.dad nodding.angry.always in a bad mood.still denying he used.wouldn't leave the house he paid the bills I didn't work outside the home. Finally in feb 09 he left. He got worse even suicidal he had been on a 14 yr relapse. The addiction insanity train was heading straight into hell.
I was so ready for divorce.my children & I were a mess. My 2 oldest each quit hs and started using. He went into a christian drug & alcohol program .he went cold turkey from 20mg of meth he had done a 6 month taper and also ct from 8mg of xanax.he was sick sick sick for 3 months lost 30 lbs. Foggy foggy couldn't remember anything. Please try not to go on the subs taper as low as you can on the meth start counseling.there is also church groups celebrate recovery. Please end the roller coaster and revolving door of addiction.
I am praying for you
Debbie  

[rich4dallas]

thank you for your story.. How are your husband and kids doing now?? so are you saying to get off the subs?? do you know anything about suboxone?? Im using as a crutch to get off of the Methadone..I tappered down to 15 mg on the meth and then jumped to the subs to alleviate some of the crazy withdrawal of methadone..Im only on 2mgs of subs.. so i am certainly going through methadone withdrawal... I was told by my doctor that I should be on about 6mgs of subs and tapper from there over the next 4 months or so..He thinks Im torchering myself by only taking 2 mgs.. hes not so wrong.I cant sleep, feel anxiety, pains, etc, etc, etc.
Im just afraid of having a problem with the subs..I hope your family is doing well..
Thanks

[HenryS354]

Hey Rich!

Welcome to the forum!

Your post caught my eye, as I went the exact same route that you are doing right now.  Opiate abuse of all sorts- 6 Years of Methadone maintenance-Suboxone-Clean!

I was on that methadone train for quite a long time, and initially decided to switch to sub for the same reasons you have.  My initial goal was 1 month of Suboxone treatment, and then a taper.

What I found very quickly was that for longer term success, I needed sub a little longer.  This is only my personal experience, and we are all different specimens mind you.

I stayed on sub, by choice about 2 years before taking the final plunge. During those two years, I evaluated my life, where I was, where I had been... and really took a long hard personal inventory.  In addition, I met with a substance abuse counselor, and attended NA meetings on a regular basis.  I believe this in combincation with my Suboxone treatment gave me a concrete foundation for recovery.

It is thought that Suboxone, while still an opiate allows neuro re-regulation to some degree, and allows the brain to begin to heal. Im still trying to find documented research to back this up.  The closest I can come to an explanation of why short term sub is not good for long term success is Dr.Richard Gracer's "Mechanisms of Buprenorphine" paper.  Its short, and really made things make sense for me.  You can find it here:  http://www.gracermedicalgroup.com/resources/articles/rf_file_0009.pdf

When I finally felt I was strong enough, I stopped my sub treatment at 3mgs daily on May 18, 2010.  The wd period was a process, but for me personally wasnt a fraction of what the Methadone detox was like even with minute tapering...  As far as PAWS, I didnt have much if any.  I just kept focusing on the big picture, and improving myself mind, body, and spirit.  

Mind you, it doesnt take years, like it did me... But the thoughts of using Suboxone as a drug to use for a relatively fast taper is quite false logic.  And many of those that were successful within a sub program, you will find utilized the drug in a combination with cognitive treatment for a period of a few months.

Keep hangin in there, and posting your questions!

Henry

[rich4dallas]

Hi.. I think I might try what you are suggesting.. I tried  to stop today and I went about 32hours and took about 1mg of sub... of courseI I felt horrible...shaky, cold, FREZZING, ZERO energy, depressed, anxiety, etc,etc,etc,etc..But isnt this normal for getting off this crap??Detoxing from Methadone is NO JOKE!!WOW!!! today is 13 days w/o this garbage in me and It felt like my 3rd day off.. worse then any opiate  that I have detoxed from 7 yrs ago., and I remember going COLD TURKEY many times from oxys, pks, etc.. by day 4 I would force myself to go to work.  Obviously I dont want to go down this road again.. so Im seriously considering what you are suggesting.. I just hope your right..One of the maine reasons Im trying to speed this up is because I took  this unpaid time from work to get off everything..Now im going to go back to work knowing I still have to get off of the subs in 3 months..  My problem with my sub doctor is hes the one thats been giving me the M for the past 7 yrs and whatever else I want.. I dont trust anything he says..
Thanks again for all the support..

[rich4dallas]

thank you for this..
after your first month of suboxe, what made you decide that you needed more time??
after your 2 yr treatment how did you detox and also when you finally got to zero how long did it take you to recover?? was it a bad detox withdrawal??
I have heard some really bad horror stories wiyh SUBS.. grant it, nowhere close to as many as Methadone.. I just dont want to go from the oven to the frying pan.. but my goal is for long life recovery...
so your clean for about 14 months now?? CONGRATS to you!! hows it feel to have your life back?? why is that I feel that I am high, confused, from just less then 2mg of subs?? i dont like the feeling of this medication..
thanks for the support..
THIS IS TOUGH..
KEEP STRONG!!!

[atthebeach]

sorry i really didnt finish my story the other day. my pc was down and i was typing on my phone. yes my husband has been clean and in recovery for 17 months. the LORD has been a huge part of his recovery and our familys healing. there is alot of different opinions on how long to stay on subs. we have definitely had members who only used it to detox and did a 21 day schedule. i found one thread about subs. type in the search above, suboxone withdrawals, suboxone. you will find lots of threads. here is one i found.

http://www.medhelp.org/posts/Addiction-Substance-Abuse/How-to-Quit-Suboxone-Or-try-to-stop-Suboxone/show/776009
please read as much as you can and gain as much knowledge as you can. it seems you have a strong desire to finally be free of any substance. that is a very important part of your recovery. have you set up any counseling yet?
please continue to post and let us know how you are doing.
sending hope.blessings and prayers
debbie

[rich4dallas]

Hi. Debbie,
Thank you so much for your help and support... Im so confused.. I really would like to be off everything already.. and I am concerned about some of the horror stories I hear about SUBS..
However I want to have life time sucess..
Im going to look up the website you left me..
Im going to go into counseling when I get insurance Sept 1st..
Please continue to give me all the information and advice you know..
Thank you..
CONGRATS ON 17 MONTHS..
how is your husband doing?? it sounds like hes doing really well..

[atthebeach]

hey rich, did you read these articles?

http://www.medhelp.org/health_pages/Addiction/Suboxone-Subutex-FAQ-Part-One/show/14?cid=66

http://www.medhelp.org/health_pages/Addiction/Suboxone-Subutex-Part-Two/show/35?cid=66

http://www.medhelp.org/health_pages/Addiction/Understanding-the-Ceiling-Effect-of-Suboxone-Subutex/show/574?cid=66

[HenryS354]

Hey Rich,

I'll try to answer all of your questions... This might get a little lenghty, so bear with me!

The way that I knew that I needed more time was quite simple... I started decreasing my dose immediately after my suboxone induction, of course I felt the typical wd's, but my main reason was the mental cravings were quite strong every time I decided I wanted to test the waters.  I know that cravings are going to pop up from time to time most likely for the rest of my life.  The key to me deciding to stay on sub was that I didnt know how to manage them, couldnt channel my energy into other ways to bypass them, and at the time didnt have the knowlege to know what was happening in my body, and why.  By staying on subs while I sought support from NA, and a private counselor, I learned all these things, and sub was my safety net while working on the actual problem.  I look at sub like any other pain medicine.  Lets say there is a patient that has chronic pain from a shattered pelvis.  They are given pain meds to ease the pain, but the pelvis is still shattered... the meds are given as an adjuvent therapy until the surgery can be performed and the underlying issues fixed.  Take away the meds without fixing the problem, and the patient still has pain.  See where Im going with this?  

As far as my detox, I was holding on around 12mgs of sub for the two year period.  When I decided to detox, I tapered down over 2 weeks to 3mgs.  I got anxious, and decided to CT off of Sub at 3mgs.  The first three days were a mental battle, but one that I was strong enough to tough out.  Days 4-10 were the strongest of the symptoms, but even with that said, I was able to get out of bed, shower, and go about my daily activities during that time. The wd's were never debilitating in any way.  By day 11, I was back at work.  Now I never took time off of work to detox. Im an International Flight Attendant and get 10 days off every month back to back.  On day 11, I was not 100%, but was able to work a flight from Chicago-Germany, and was overseas for the next 18 days.

The wd for me was not fun, but bearable.  The two most aggravating symptoms were the lack of sleep. And the restless legs.  Sleep came and went, and I just got used to grabbing 20 minutes here and there when my body would let me.  The Leg thing, was eased a bit by a high quality chelated magnesium supplement, calcium, and lots of long hot soaks in a tub loaded with epsom salts. The worst was over in the first 10 days, and after that point my sleep started coming back little by little each day. I was feeling 100% by 20 days later.  

I would try to not read too far into the horror stories bud... I found that the more I read them, the more wd symptoms my mind would concoct.  Staying positive is of VAST importance.  I learned to embrace my wd's not fear them... and look at them as a rite of passage into a new and clean life.  Its something that can not be avoided, and the great thing is... I never have to go through them again, unless I make a conscious choice to!  I cant stress the importance of positive frame of mind when detoxing.

Wow, Its hard to believe that its been 14 months already! Thanks for reminding me of that! :-)  Life has been great!  Ive been rekindling old relationships with family, and they are thrilled to finally have "Henry" back.  Ive noticed that I carry myself in a different manner, theres that spark in my eye again, and motivation is back 10 fold!  I wont lie... its been a challenge, just simply "Living life on lifes terms" (Had to throw at least ONE NA saying in there lol) But it feels good to actually feel again!

Titrating Buprenorphine dosing is quite tricky... I would give it a bit more time before you give it the nix for good.  Try sticking to what the doc ordered.  Is finding another Sub doc a possibility?  Ive found that having trust in your medical provider is worth its weight in gold during this process.

Im going to PVT you a website I want you to check out. Its specifically dedicated to Buprenorphine treatment.  This site and the other were of great motivation to me, and provided yet another support structure that I greatly needed during my treatment and detox!

I promise you bud, it does indeed get better.  Just keep fighting, as now is the time you will use all the courage and strength you have to get through this! You have a great support system it sounds at home, and you have a bunch of people here who have never met you that are cheering you on the entire way!

Henry