Hi:) I am new to this...Tomorrow I will start my first dose of Subutex:)

[Happy2LIVEagain]

Hi:) I am new to this...Tomorrow I start on Subutex" for 3 days, then Suboxone after that. Can somenone please tell me the difference between Subetex vs Suboxone for the "induction"? I have been on about 25-30 Norco(10mg) for years and I am unclear as to how long I have to wait between my last dose of norco and my first dose of Subutex. Also, is it true that with Subutex, you won't suffer withdrawls from the norco? I'm so ready and excited to get off the norco safely, but I am so scared. Thanks so much for your help:) Tonya

[leeisgettingclean]

you sound knowledgable about sub and i think you make good points about the use of it. I to think its up to each person and there doc about the use of it. I do know it has saved many addicts and has helped them get were they are in recovery today, and thats the reason i think its good for the individual that needs it. Just like evrything else in the world, it can be abused but so can everything else. I just think it gets a neg name because some people have bad times with it, however those same people had bad times with there DOC , i just hate all the negativeity about it. I feel it is each there own.

[GA Guy]

OK, first let me say that I'm not in any way debating this. I think it's up to the person and the doctor...none of my business really. But, I do post facts about the action of the drug, why it's different that typical opiates, and how its method of action relates to other drugs. Suboxone does not block other opiates by raising your tolerance. There is only one scenario where Suboxone would raise your tolerance. That is if you're under the equivalent dose of another opiate that's less than the equivalent dose of Suboxone at or above its ceiling level. Therefore, if you take over 2-4mg (the true ceiling level is in there somewhere) of Sub and are taking less than 30mg of Methadone, 50mg of Oxycodone, or 70-80mg of Hyrocodone a day..then the Suboxone will raise your tolerance to those levels over time. This also explains the high some people get when first starting Suboxone. Regardless of the tolerance issue, this is not what cause traditional opiates to not be effective when on Suboxone. It's Suboxone's method of action..namely it's higher affinity for opiate receptors than that of traditional opiates. Suboxone's method of action does change somewhat over 32mg because it tends to revert back to a traditional agonist acting opiate at these levels. It's this affinity that causes the precipitated withdrawals. Many people mistakenly think it's the naloxone that precipitates withdrawals. In fact, Subutex and Suboxone are both able to produce the same precipitated withdrawals, even though Subutex contains no naloxone.

[leeisgettingclean]

Sub is such a touchy subject. I think in the end, we must appreciate to fact that sub is a good tool in recovery. If not for sub some would not be were they are today. I do not personally think it is for me, but no one forces anyone to use it. It is only offered to addicts and in the end the addict accepts or not. Sub helps by having your brain create more receptors thus making your tolerances higher therefore making the use of most opiates a waste of time, because of the extremely high tolerance. So yeah it might be a "stronger drug" however if used right and under a good and well informed doctor along with a good taper plan off of it, there is prob not going to be lots of issues with its use. Like i said, i never used it, I just dont like the fact that some of us(including myself untill talking to my counceler today)  take such a negative approach to it on here, therefore having peoples post deleted(that happened the other day, and i feel bad for my part in it, i was taking a negative approach to it and the lady who was doing nothing more than trying to log her experinance with it ended up having a well written post deleted )

[BIKERDAD1963]

Like i said we can debate this forever and get nowere. In the end it has to be your own decision, not anyone elses. Good luck and keep posting

[GA Guy]

Any opiate is 3 times stronger than heroin if you take 3 times the comparable dosage. Also, Bupe just has a higher affinity for the competing receptors. That's why traditional agonistic opiates have no affect when taken at traditional dosages. The receptors are still there, but the higher affinity drug keeps the bond.

[BIKERDAD1963]

Well actually sub is 3 times stronger than heroine. In parts of europe sub has overtaken the heroine market and more people are OD'ing and dying. I didnt do the sub after I did all the research. I did a long taper program which worked out way better than taking sub. I had very minimal wd thru the taper and when done completely hardly a wd sympton. I dont beleive in replacing one drug for another when you are trying to quit. If you want to quit than just quit. Why take another drug to do it. I researched it for a long time and weighed the pros and cons. For every pro (which wasnt many) there are about 10 cons. Dont get me wrong, if done exactly as it should be done it can help. It can really help for those drugs that are harder to withdrawal from like heroine and methadone.The problem is that when you give an addict a better drug he usually just gets addicted to it. Just dont let your doctor talk you in at starting to hi. Most want to start you out at 8 mg and it gives you a great hi. Not what you want when you are trying to quit. Try starting at 4mg. You dont want to be on this to long. 6 - 8 months max. Some people are on it for 2 years and then they cant stop. And when they do stop it isnt pretty. You need to be in charge with your dose and taper. You need to keep in touch closly with your doc during all of this but dont let him make all the decisions for you. The sub works by attaching to all the opoid receptors were other opiates just attached to a few. Dont take any other opiates while on sub because there will be no opoid receptors for it to cling to and it will be booted out almost immidiately and you will go into some wd. Sub should be used as a last resort not your first resort. Just my opinion by my own research. I would recommend talking to your doctor about taperring from the norco first before going to such extreme. Anyways we all could debate this forever and get nowere. Happens very often here. You are in charge of your own decisions. Just make sure that you no you are capable of puting this drug in your body without becoming addicted to it and make sure you are doing na or aa during this process.

[SKL1]

I have read that benzos and Sub don't mix to good.

Be careful, do your research...you can call the Sub hot-line and ask them benzos

good luck.

[GA Guy]

Simply stated agonists are drugs that bind to receptors, antagonists block that binding. Suboxone works as an antagonist and will knock off and take over receptors that are bound by other opiates. That's why you should be free of those opiates, and have clear receptors, so nothing is there to knock off and cause precipitated withdrawals. 24 hours is a very good time period. If your doctor recommends it, then do that length of time. Playing around with it can do nothing but cause agony. Plus, it's just 24 hours. It will be much better after the induction. Also, be careful of the benzos. They are contraindicated with Suboxone, but some doctors do prescribe them. Just be careful and try to ween off them as soon as possible. I'm clean this time, after a rehab stint for over 4 months. I used Sub at various times for the last 3 years. It would have worked if I had done my part. But, I never worked on the addiction...I just took the drug. So, when I stopped..the addiction was still there. Good luck.

[Happy2LIVEagain]

Hi! Thanks for the info...I understand some of it, but I'm fully confused about "agonist" and "antagonist". I see these words a lot in researching these meds, but i honestly don't understand what the heck it means. My doctor said that he would "like" to see me get to 24 hours of no norco before I take my first dose of Subutex, but to be completely honest, I kinda tested myself yesterday, and at hour 10, I felt really anxious, stomache cramping (running to the restroom if ya know what I mean), my pupils were getting pretty dialated and I felt all "floaty" and scared. Is that what withdrawl feels like? I already take Xanax every day for the past 6 years for anxiety attacks, so my Dr. actually INCREASED my dosage of xanax for the first month of this whole Subutex/Suboxone AKA "FREEDOME" . What do ya think? How long have u been sober? whatever the length of time, Congrats to you and I can't wait till I can log on here and say that I am free of the Norcos:) You guys are great! Thanks so very much for being here for me!

[Happy2LIVEagain]

Hi:) Thank you so very much for responding so quickly. I am so excited to get free of my addiction to Norco. Why do you think that the Subutex/Suboxone isn't a good way to go for getting off pain meds? Does it not work on them? Sorry for all the questions, but I have anxiety anyway, and getting ready to start this Subutex tomorrow morning is freaking me out a little. How long did you wait before you took your first dose of the Sub after your last dose of your medicine?
By the way, HUGE congrats to you! 7 hours is like a victory to me...if I read correctly, you're at 7 days? Does this medicine really keep us from going thru withdrawls and lastly, about how long after you take your first dose of the Subutex before it kicks in and you start to feel ok? BTW, I share that love of BIKES with you Biker Dad! I'm only 5'3" and all of 110 pounds, so I clearly can't hold a bike up myself or I would, so I am all too happy to be on the back and just relax and enjoy the fresh air and the freedom you feel on the open road. If you have time, will you please reply to this msg and then I'll stop bugging you. Thanks a bunch:)

[GA Guy]

Also, saying that Suboxone is a more powerful opiate is a bit of a misnomer. Many people say this opiate or that opiate is stronger...and they are on a milligram to milligram ratio. For example, 70-80mg of Hydrocodone is equal to about 50mg of Oxycodone. Bupe isn't a linear drug and has a unique ceiling effect. So, 2mg of Suboxone is equal to that same 70-80mg of Hydro and 50mg of Oxy. Sub's ceiling effect also makes 4mg, 8mg, 16, and even 32mg of Sub also equal to that same 70-80mg of Sub and 50mg of Oxy. Suboxone has partial agonist and antagonist actions at doses between that 2-32mg doses (estimated) and reverts back to a normal agonist at doses below and above those levels. That's the reason Sub becomes so hard to jump from at doses of 2mg or above. It's also this agonistic and antagonistic actions that make precipitated withdrawals possible.

[GA Guy]

The active ingredients in Suboxone and Subutex is the same (buprenorphine). Subutex is pure buprenorphine where Suboxone includes naloxone which deters using the Suboxone as an IV drug. It's inactive if taken sublingually as intended. The length of time you should be off the Norco, and the length of time you stay on it are solely you decision in agreement with your physician. It's also important to complement the Suboxone with therapy. It increases the chance of long term clean time.

[BIKERDAD1963]

the sub is just a more powerful opiate. It doesnt take the wd away from the norco. All it is doing is puting a different drug in its place. Make sure you have a game plan with your doc. Dont start at a to hi of a dose and dont stay on it to long. The longer you are on it the worse the wd will be. The sub has a very long after life. It leaves your body slowly, thus making the wd longer but isnt suppose to be as severe if done rite. Dont start taking the sub until you start wd from the norco. Usually atleast 8 hours after your last pill. Your doc should be able to answer these questions and if he cant then run and run fast. Make sure you research the sub so you no for yourself how this drug works and how it should be used. I personally dont recommend it for norco addiction or oxy. It is a good tool for methadone. I think taperring the norco is the way to go.