I'm nevous and afraid of what I am going thru with these withdrawals.

[cetiya]

I am getting off the Duragesic Patch, that I have been on for about 5 months. Took it off Monday morning.  My doc was great and game me a million Oxys to get off the Fentanyl.
  One of my main fears is this strange violent "twitch" , it just lasts a second, but it's scaring me, maybe I have something wrong with my brain?
  Also, I have a weird rash on my face and hand, a low grade fever and a sore throat. I did go to a walk-in clinic and they gave me a creme to put on my face and hands.

[Thomas03]

Hey, Ex, relax. They're just testing you. And you know you're really making an impact when you **** someone off -- always my words to live by ...

Kip and Hippee are both my good friends. They care passionately for the addict who still suffers. You couldn't find two finer gentlemen. If they stick you, stick em back. Hey, I'm Irish/German so you know I'm always game for a good dustup!

Stick with us. You have a lot to offer. You

[Chezz2]

Thanks Michael for the affirmation. You are the one that tought me that info, as well as NUMEROUS other people out there that are too many to count.
Thanks for your endless contribution to the education of medications...
You are well respected here for that...
Chezz

[mrmichael67]

I agree.  That absolutely not true.  Methadone is one of the most studied drugs ever and it has been proven to be safe over the long haul as long as it is taken responsibly and not abused.

[Chezz2]

"One of the properties of Methadone is that it has a long half-life and can accumulate in your system. You CAN'T stay on it for a long period of time safely. Make your goals incremental, but please consider the goal of becoming opiate free. Please write me if you have questions, I worked in pain management for 20 years."

This is a post to Debbie33.

You can't stay on Methadone for a long period of time safely???????????

There are people that have been on it 20 years, some more.

MrMichael would have more info on this. I just thought this misinformation should be brought to your attention so you don't continue to pass it along.

Regards,
Chezz

[Expillman]

OK, since you are the second one, maybe this is not so good an idea.  This is time consuming and I do have other things to do.  I have not intended to offend anyone, only help.

Good luck to everyone and find your peace.


EXPillman

[hippy]

yo nod , how ya been doing , it is good to here from ya,
i was thinking about you the other day.
i know your busy with work and all, but
don't give up on trying to get clean,
you have so much to offer, and a lot to lose.
keep in touch.

peace!!!!!!!!!!hippy

[hippy]

i must say over the past year and a half. when i see
the words (I'LL BE TAKING QUESTIONS) , i do find it
hard to swallow, im sure the people who have posted this
phrase mean well, but it show's thier arrogance, and arrogance
is just a mask for low self esteem.
we are all in this together, it is best to set aside  our
differences and come together as equals.
there are more then a few people here at the fourm
who are very well informed, i have learned a lot from them.
one thing addicts really have a hard time with is being contradicted, or spoken down to.
this is a fourm where we share our experence of getting
off the pills  and going through the withdrawls.
there is also the part of the fourm where there are those
that have to take pain meds for pain management.
willow i agree with you , we all need to be kind to
each other , and treat each other with respect ,
and not speak down to anyone.
we can leave our resume;s at the door.
peace!!!!!!!!!!!!!!hippy

[willowgirl]

I am happy to see you both stop the back and forth nonsense. I watch this site every day and I find certain people to be very very helpful, insightful and inspiring.  Both of you fall into that catagory. Although I feel you both have a different outlook on things and totally different ways of expressing yourselves, you are both very inspiring.
I am personally going with the tapering and I am starting to think I am just kidding myself because eventually when the pills are really all gone for good for ever I am scared ****, but then I read expillmans posts and feel that maybe I can do it. Today is just a bad day . It is raining out and I feel very blah and I would love to just eat pills all day and watch TV. But I am not going to do that for I want to beat this and I cant control the weather and I will not use the weather as an excuse " oh its raining so I need to get higH"  I swear I wont. I am going out for the day and I am going to keep on trucking. Again both of you are so helpful. Get your **** together and you two could be a powerful force against this BS addiction we all live with. People like you two are what we all need. I know not everyone will agree with me but I find both of your posts helpful- except when it is bullshit bickering about who is stronger or who is the correct one or who knows more. Who cares??? Your both great

[Nod]

Hey Hippy, how are you.  I've been away from board for awhile. You comment on the nuns and left hand made me laugh.  I remember those days well.  I've been up and down since last we talked but still not clean.  Made it one full day tho and really have cut back.  Just still haven't faced up to things yet or at least again like I did last year when went 8mos clean.  Pain sucks, but it ain't livin on the pills.  What a mess.  
Hope you are well- Nod

[mrmichael67]

If I had oxy in the house, I would have taken them as well.  Even if a non addict did, that is just self preservation as well all wouldn't want to feel like that.  Many people can taper, but most can't....well, most addicts can't.  If the taper is going at the proper rate, then discomfort should be at a very minimum and the non-addict would be able to handle that and not help themselves to more.  In the non-addict, they get on opioids and take them for the duration of their pain.  When the pain is over, they taper, get off, and don't look back.  They won't be craving the meds to get high because they weren't getting high in the first place.  I know when I crave, I crave that wonderful feeling I get when I am high.  That is from taking way more than needed.  The non-addict, through their therapy, were taking their meds as prescribed.  Except in the beginning, they don't feel their meds as the body quickly becomes tolerant to any side effects, except constipation.  There really isn't any feeling for them to crave.  People in pain management have been getting on and getting off of meds for quite a while now.  This has been accomplished through their docs and tapering their dose.  Just look at what caused them to realize a small number actually become addicted to their meds.  During the many studies, those patients were tapered down quite regularly.  And, it was done quite successfully.  In the addict, that is all another story.  Most addicts, that I have encountered, can't taper if their lives depended on it.  Some can.

[Expillman]

Good morning, Thomas!  First, I'm happy that we buried the hatchet and not into each other's skulls.  You are a worthy adversary, will you join my quest?   Oh, sorry, that's another movie that is playing in my brain.  Apologies to the Monty Python crowd, and yes, the Full Monty crowd also.  Now, on to the regularly scheduled programing.

I am in hour 136 of OXYCONTIN FREEDOM.  Reality visited me this morning as I awoke and fully expected to see Dorothy, that ankle-biting Toto and the Straw Man with the Oil Can.  All the pain I have is still here, I had shunted it into the recesses of my brain as I dealt with more pressing issues, i.e., detoxing myself from Oxycodone.

The contracts are a great idea, we did that all the time back when I was in Pain Management.  It was especially important with abusers, the ONE DOCTOR ONE PHARMACY contract, it sealed a bond of trust between the doctor and the patient.  The doctor agreed to provide adequate pain relief and the patient agreed not to doctor or pharmacy shop.  Health care professionals were instructed to keep good records of pain assessment to adequately treat the patient and to COVER THEIR ASS.

One of the big roadblocks was fear.  Fear of addiction.  Fear of regulatory agencies.  And for the patient, fear of running out of much needed medications and/or being denied or cut off.  Many, many physicans simply refused to deal with pain patients at all, a very tragic situation.  People were turned away as if they had some sort of self-inflicted leprosy.  PAIN??  UNCLEAN! UNCLEAN!  GO AWAY, GO AWAY.

This was 10 years ago, but I would imagine that not much has changed.

EXPillman

[Thomas03]

I asked myself similar questions. "If oxycontins were embedded in the concrete foundation of my house, would I jackhammer them out and stuff them in my face?"

"If the Russians used hydrocodone control rods at Chernobyl, would I go snorkeling in their reactor?"

"Would I cut out my own liver and use it to distract a pit bull guarding a hospital narcotics strong box?"

Abso-fuckin-lutely!

And, does tapering work?

Sure, as long as it aint me doin it!

Seriously, I am like you in that I can't abstain when there are any narcs in the house, whether to detox or taper.

I generally advise people to do a cold turkey detox, but some people can't get the down time away from work or family to weather it. In those cases, I urge people to find a tapering partner they can trust, draw up a precise tapering schedule, and, along with their tapering partner, sign it like a performance contract. Still, easier said than done.

Thomas

[theGolden1]

I have a painful condition called fibromyalgia and started out on vicodin 3 years ago, but my rheumatologist switched me to Ultram. It was effective and I was able to live my life pain free. After finding out that ultram was an addictive drug and very hard to get off of .... I began to taper down. I now find that this pain  condition has all but disappeared and I want to quit drugs altogether. I have been tapering since January .... very, very slowly. Two days ago I stopped the ultram and substituted vicodin. After reading this board I am terrified of getting hooked ... but I want out!! I figure I have 2 more days before addiction sets in. I'm not sure what I will do ... but I know one thing ..... I shall be released. I appreciate your perception as far as pain vs getting high. I have a few theories on the management of pain, or should I say the mismanagement of pain. I believe we are made to feel ashamed of being in pain. We are treated as though we are "weak" or something. Maybe we should try a little harder. I also believe that this is what is behind assisted suicide. The shame that people feel when they have to bear extreme pain or even be on pain medication. They don't want anyone to see them like this. Pain patients are stigmatized and looked down on. MrMichael had some very good  coments regarding pain medication. I will say one thing .... although we start out trying to wipe out the chronic pain and get a life .... an obsessive mental disorder can occur with the continued use of addictive medications. That's a given. I just don't think people should be judged for something that is not their fault. Just be aware that opiates target the brain. The brain will invent pain to get that drug. When I took vikes .... the first brain change was obsessive thoughts .... I couldn't forget about this fear I had .... that rapidly changed into cravings for the pills. I'm on guard this time ... what will you do if you ever need to use pain medication again??

[Expillman]

Thank you.  Here is a hypothetical 2-part question and I will go ahead and give my opinion.  I would be interested in yours.  

I do not consider myself an addict, but was physically dependent on Oxycodone.  Others may have differing opinions.  I am a strong person and was strongly motivated to quit cold turkey off of  a dose that ranged up to 240-300 mg per day over a period of 3 years.

  My question #1 to myself is:  If there had been oxy in the house during day 2-3 of withdrawl, would I have broken down and used it to stop the awful sensations of withdrawal?

Question #2, does tapering work?

Here is my opinion.  To question #1, the answer is an unqualified YES.  I think that the urge to end the agony would have been irrestible.  It if for this reason that I "cleaned house" before I started.  

To question #2, I would say yes in theory and no in practice.  Maybe I'm old fashioned about quitting, but I think cold turkey is the only way to go.  It is painful, but makes a clean break.  I tried to taper down and quit several times, but failed.  It was totally a MENTAL breakdown in motivation and compliance since the cold turkey option was still there.  Once you "clean house" and get rid of your pills, you are committed and there is no turning back.  

I welcome any and all opinions on this matter.

[mrmichael67]

Thank you.  We just had a big debate on this issue and you are completely right.  Physical dependence is just the nature of the beast.  If anyone takes opioids for long enough, they will become dependent.  They don't differentiate.  The rate of addiction for people taking pain meds for legitimate pain is actually very, very low.  Many don't understand the difference between physical dependence and addiction.  And, pseudo addiction is a big factor for pain patients.  Who hasn't been called a drug seeker?  I know I have.  I mean, I am an addict and a pain patient.  But, just because a person is looking for percocet, the doc can't just assume they are an addict.  They could be just looking for what works.  Why would they ask for Motrin if it isn't going to work and the patient knows that?  Slowly but surely, pain management is making ground.  Like I posted earlier today, pain is one of the vitals at the hospital now.  They finally made pain an important issue instead of taking the stance that you won't die from it or something to that effect.  Thank you again.  Many people needlessly suffer because of this very issue.

[Expillman]

Hey, I'm just so thrilled to be through the physical withdrawal symptoms that I could kiss a pig's ass.

[Expillman]

O.K., here goes.  What is the difference between ADDICTION and PHYSICAL DEPENCENCE?

A pain patient is physically dependent on their pain medicine to control their pain just as a diabetic is dependent on their insulin to control blood sugar.  

Addiction is psychological dependence and is defined as a compulsive drug use characterized by a continued craving for an opiond and the need to use the opiod for effects other than pain relief.  

Important- Often legitimate pain patients MIMIC addictive behaviour because of poor management of their pain, NOT because they are drug addicts.  This phenomena is known as iatrogenic pseudoaddiction and such patients understandibly try to manipulate the system in order to get ADEQUATE pain relief.

This is a tragic situation and exists because of poor knowledge of pain control and the lack of a genuine drug group to treat moderate to severe, non terminal pain, without drug physical dependency.

That's the thought for the day, folks.  Questions are welcome.


EXPillman

[mrmichael67]

If you want, email me at ***@****.  Maybe we could go over some options for you.  Did your doc just cut you off?  You wouldn't be the first one to go through that.  Anyway, get in touch.  I hate when I read something like what you just posted.  I have been there and it seems so futile.  But, it isn't.

[hippy]

i think it is great that you are off the oxy.
i hope your withdrawls  are not to severe.
your clever humanistic diatribe on death is
not my cup of tea, but it was very creative.
your mention of cracking someones knuckles
reminded me of my childhood and getting wacked on the
knuckels because i was left handed, the nuns did it untill
i became right handed
i can not wait to read some of your upcoming  post
if they are as interesting  as the last one.

peace!!!!!!!!!!!!!hippy

[twiceain'tnice]

Wow! You guys are at it... I have been free for three weeks and had my first real craving.  I thought I could take a couple but instead came here and read.  The craving went away immediately.  So no matter , this forum rules and still helps me every day.  What the hell was I thinking???? Time to go burn that bridge.I think I should call my pharmacist, something I have been putting off. Anybody have experience with that?  What to say?  Best of luck.  Another day opiate free!  Thanks!

[Thomas03]

A thousand pardons, I didn't realize I was talking to a living testament! What's it like up there in the clouds?

Thomas

[motox4fun01]

Pops!
You had better sharpen your sword!!!!!
Thomas is getting FIRED UP!
Be gentle Thomas :]
   James

[Diss]

I have been off of the duragesic 50mg patch now for 3 weeks. I went off of it cold turkey which was awful. I ended up going to the emergency for help and they turned me away with nothing. I shook for over a week and still cannot get my legs to stop twitching. I have adivan and some percs but this twitching in my legs doesn't allow me to lay still to go to sleep. I haven't had more than 3-4 hours sleep in over 3 weeks. Does anyone else have the twitchy legs that keep them awake all night and if so what do you do for them? Good luck to everyone coming off the patch and PLEASE DON"T TRY AND DO IT COLD TURKEY!!!!

[Expillman]

Dear Thomas:

I may come as quite a shock to you, but not everyone who has a problem with PHYSICAL DEPENDENCE from an opiate is an addict. There is quite a difference between physical dependence and addiction, BUT the brain does not know the difference and you will suffer the agony of withdrawal.

As far as humor goes, I will applaud it only when I see it.

So far I haven't seen any from you, but nonetheless, I'll keep an eye peeled.

As far as my chance of relapse?  It is ZERO and you can take that to the bank.  If you want to cross swords with me, fine, but I lectured on pain managment for 20 years in my other lifetime and am quite knowledgable.  I am a living testament to the fact that drug dependence can happen to ANYONE and we have a serious problem managing pain without this inevitable dependence.

Good day