Is Suboxone Really Sobriety?

[el_em_en_oh]

If one is taking Suboxone, do you consider that person sober?

*The person takes as prescribed and weened down to the lowest effective dose, with the help of a doctor
*The person doesn't drink alcohol, take any prescription medication they aren't supposed to, nor use any illegal substances
*The person goes to both AA and NA on a regular basis
*The person has a sponsor who has a sponsor
The person has worked the steps

Just curious what the forum thinks.

Is someone that takes Suboxone really "sober"?

[TS8777]

Everyone is different. In my opinion it's trading one drug for another. Ask yourself this question could you make it through your day without it? If your answer is no then your dependent on it. I am not bashing it because maybe it has helped some people but in my opinion it's just the new methadone clinic. Something the govt. can control. I believe being sober is simply that nothing no drugs at all.

[refills]

To expand on my original thought. I'm a little wary putting my idea's on another persons agenda. The whole idea of getting clean and sober is about getting clean and sober, one way or another. All the help with idea's and techniques we find on this board is truly amazing. IMO there certainly is no right or wrong way to get yourself better. There are many roads to heell as there are many ways to heaven. I embrace the fact that my way is not necessarily your way. If your way of being clean and sober works, than I totally agree with your way. Weaver said it very well.

[weaver71]

If I had to pick an opinion, it would be what nursegirl said. I have seen people take hydros for pain, but the pills were prescribed and part of the persons recovery, so many said it didn't ruin their clean date. It is not the drugs that make us addicts, it is how and why we use the drugs. So taking sub doesn't automomatically mean it ruins clean time or r recovery, it's just a PART of recovery. Like I said above, it's not the destination in recovery, but one step in a lifetime of steps. Subs saved my life, anyone in my life will agree with that. 2 1/2 years after subs and I don't co wider my time on subs as using time, but it does t even matter anymore. What matters is am I progressing today? Nit what I definitively label each stage. Pure, no, I am not pure, but I am better than I was and have every intention of getting even better, for life. I love the controversial subjects. I see that less people are absolutely against subs than they were when I took them, that is good to see. There is a time and a place for everything under the sun.

[weaver71]

Adjective[edit]
sober (comparative soberer, superlative soberest)

not drunk; not intoxicated
not given to excessive drinking of alcohol
moderate; realistic; serious; not playful; not passionate; cool; self-controlled
dull; not bright or colorful  
subdued; solemn; grave  

Adjective[edit]
clean (comparative cleaner, superlative cleanest)

(heading, physical)
Free of dirt or impurities or protruberances.
Not dirty.  
In an unmarked condition.

(heading, behavioural)
Free of immorality or criminality.
Pure, especially morally or religiously.  
Not having used drugs or alcohol.

Words are merely sounds that help us share common ideas. You asked about two of them in relation to subs. From what I understand, a person can be sober on suboxone, not intoxicated, moderate, realistic. But, by definition, if a person is ingesting a drug, then they are not free of impurities, in a totally unmarked condition, they are not pure and clean. I used Wiktionary, since that seems to be what sets our standards of meaning these days. So, after my internal debate and analysis, I think one can be sober, but not clean on suboxone. I also think you can be high and not realize it on subs too.

The emotional block, rather than the buzz is what seems to start to eat at many people. In Latin America, the iv users are called bupe zombies. Sub is a very addictive opioid and very potent. I would say that in the journey of recovery, sub is a step, not a destination. Just my take on it, call it what you will. Sober, clean? My only question I care about for myself is, am I progressing? It seems like right around 6 years is when many finally decide that they can tell it's having an intolerable affect. Others are much sooner, but that seems to be the longest many people can handle it. I have seen a few on it longer, but less than a handfull, so far.

[Junip]

Sonrissa, l love that, clear as mud!  Sounds about right ;-)  

Ben, I agree with what you said. For me personally;  and again, it is personal, I was still taking opiates while on Suboxone. When on pills I never bought off the street or missed work, I was high functioning but I was a slave to the pills. Going on subs, for me, simply allowed me to be off of the pills and live life not needing to take meds from my husband or crave them. But, I was still dependent on opiates through the subs. I went to meetings and followed my doctor's plan but the mere fact I had to be on them made me a slave to a substance still. And getting off of them was worse than getting off oxy and Percocet.  That being said, if I was an IV drug user or I bought meds off street, I would find a suboxone treatment a much better option; but for me, I still would not consider myself sober. I have never had a cigarette or joint so I cannot comment on that.  Awesome discussion everyone!

[Sonrissa]

Obviously there are many different views on this subject.

For me personally, it's about me personally.  I consider myself sober if I am not taking & abusing my drug of choice, or any other mind altering substance.   I abused prescription painkillers. Took way more than prescribed. Lied to get them.....  When I finally stopped doing that, I considered myself clean.  

I don't know much about Suboxone, but I do know that it has helped many, and hurt many.  I guess I'm saying, it depends on the circumstances.

Clear as mud, right?  :)

[Amandag78]

Yes, i think all comments have some really great points, this has been debated many times and its great to see everyone being mature about their point.

[Ben727]

The comparison to smoking really brings the point home: "Sobriety" is not black and white. With respect to anyone who thinks it is, would you consider someone who consumes high fructose corn syrup products as "not sober"? High fructose corn syrup is absolutely an external substance that alters mental state.

The danger with suboxone is that it's an opiate. In the example given in the original post, I would say that yes I think they're sober, but what are the long terms plans and why? A person can stay on an anti-depressant long-term because their holistic health is better on it than off it long-term. This may be the true in some cases with suboxone, but realistically, not many. So this has to be looked at very carefully for each individual and informed decisions have to be made.

If taking suboxone keeps a former IV user from doing going back to IV use, and if the factors in their life cause them to go back to IV use as soon as they get off suboxone, then it's certainly preferable for them to stay on suboxone for as long as those factors are present. The key is making informed decisions on a case-by-case basis.

[Junip]

Great thoughts!

[Bigdaddy1313]

I thought I would get thrashed for my post above but the replies even if they were not 100 percent what I think they were all smart, well thought out replies. My hats off to everyone. I agreed with partsof all.

[nursegirl6572]

Hey el!!

This is always a highly debated topic.  I don't think there's a "right" or a "wrong" answer.  Everyone looks at it from their perspective.

I personally think it LARGELY depends on WHY the person started sub, and how they're handling recovery.  If they're just taking it to avoid w/ds, and not doing any "work"....then I'd agree that that isn't sobriety.

On the other hand, if a person has relapsed time and time again, and is using sub only as one "tool" in recovery...allowing themselves some "normalcy" while they stay clean  (and alive) from their DOC....and they're really working their recovery,  and continuing to set goals to move forward to taper off the sub....then I would consider that person sober.

I agree that it HAS helped a lot of people, but it also has hurt people.  For some people, it's definitely a crutch, and often times ends up being a whole other addiction.  It's also frequently abused, and used as a "filler" when someone doesn't have access to their DOC.

I've seen a lot of people really benefit from subs...and I've also seen a lot of people either get "stuck", or use it to avoid w/ds.....which shouldn't be the main (or only) reason IMO someone should decide to go the sub route.

I also get where the others are coming from in their opinion that people on subs aren't really "sober"...and I respect why they feel that way.  It's a valid point of view for sure.

[Merri123]

I think you are. If you're nota using it and living a clean lifestyle as a recoverying addict, doing aftercare etc, then yes.  Suboxone haschangedso many people's lives for the better. And honestly many wouldn't be able to get clean and stay clean without it.

You have to look at the big picture. The overall picture.

[motye51]

My personal opinion....if you take suboxone....no, you are not clean. We have a few members in our n/a mtgs that believe otherwise. When i first got to n/a i felt like i had my *** kicked. How much easier is it to stay clean with suboxone? sucking it up, going consistantly, white knuckling it until i got some relief....these are necessary for living clean. Suboxone numbs you just as much, if not more than opiates.

[Junip]

All very good points.  It is interesting to see everyone's perspective.  For me personally, I did not consider myself sober on Suboxone because I was dependent upon it to function and live without cravings and withdrawals.  I took it as prescribed and even less, in fact, but I still needed that in order to function and live my life.  In that respect, I did not consider myself fully sober until I was off of subs and pills, completely.  That being said, I think it can still be an effective treatment for some and a responsible, safe treatment plan for someone rather than buying heroin or pills, etc.  The other unfortunately thing is that many sub docs are irresponsible in how they administer the drug to their patients.  My doctor had me one it for much longer than she should have and even though I was taking very small doses and tapered down to 1/8 of a 2mg strip, I had a very difficult time coming off of it altogether.  Your own definition of sobriety is a personal thing; for me, if I have to be dependent upon something like an opiate, then I do not feel I am sober.  

[jugglin]

I agree with refills to a point....I take AD's and  I have seen others post that taking AD's mean I am not sober. I also take the occasional Xanax for panic attacks...they have never been a problem or DOC for me and I know folks would think that is wrong as well.  I base my sobriety on knowing I am not abusing my DOC which is Vicodin or any opiate.

[Amandag78]

Sorry my mistake, i agree with what refills said : )

[Amandag78]

Great comment BD, i agree with everything you just wrote!!!
If i hadnt been on the sub program, i would still be using heroin.
I have subs to thank for my new life clean : )

For me personally, what  Junip said, thats my opinion.
But i understand and relate to the other comments.

[Bigdaddy1313]

One last comment. Suboxone is used around the world for chronic pain. In the U.S. it is used to treat addicts. If you are suffering from chronic pain Suboxone is not a crutch.

[Bigdaddy1313]

El, I really love this site but there is something that I truly dislike. Most people here bash the heell out of Suboxone. I've only read a couple posts from people who believe Suboxone played a key role in them getting clean. I have read hundreds of posts from people who bash the drug and call it the devil. I would be dead if I didn't first start taking Suboxone. It gave me my life back when I was to weak to live my life the right way. It allowed me to go back to work and feel normal. It allowed me to put time and space between that person who was downing 500 to 700 mg of oxy's a day. It allowed me to learn about the disease of addiction and what it actually does to your brain. It allowed me to make a plan to get my life back. Can you be sober if you follow your doctors prescription and don't do the things you list above? Hell Yes! I entered an Intensive Outpatient Clinic when I first started getting clean two years ago. About half of the patients there were taking Suboxone and that question was brought up in one of our group meeting and one of the best addiction specialist in the country said if you take Suboxone just as prescribed that were and are sober!!!! I had a sponsor from NA who once told me that if you take Suboxone you could not be considered Suboxone. I asked why and he said you can't take anything in to your body that will make you feel different. Two seconds after saying this he said man I'm kind of stressed out tonight I need a smoke. I said didn't you just say you couldn't take anything into your body that will make you feel different yet you are going to smoke to relieve your anxiety! After thinking about this all I could do is laugh. Please understand I am not saying people who smoke are not sober. I can only speak for myself when that question is asked and I truly believe people should not have the right to say you are not sober because you are following your doctors orders. I'm sure the masses will not agree with me but oh well. I've read a lot of posts of people who are detoxing from Suboxone and they are pretty miserable. The common thing I have seen is most jumped from like 4 mg to zero. That's to big of a jump. That is my opinion and I don't judge anyone but myself.

[Junip]

I agree with the majority. And having been on subs myself, the fact that the withdrawals after stopping were worse than oxy or Percocet withdrawals really demonstrated to me their strength.

[vicki595]

Hey! How have you been?

SUBOXONE is an opiate so I share IBK's opinion.

[dominosarah]

Nice to see you LMNO!!

Ditto to what IBK said.

[refills]

IMO, sobriety can mean anything you want it to. Sounds like you already know the answer just by asking the question. Good Luck to you. (I'm a dog lover as well)

[IBKleen]

For me being clean or being sober means clean from ALL mind or mood altering substances. Anyone who is using Suboxone long term is using it as a crutch and not as the drug was intended. This is my opinion.