Is it wrong to use pain meds to curb withdrwal between bouts of pain?

[Joe]

Since my chronic pain levels are not constant, I use the pain meds as needed.  However I noticed that when I have a "good" day (i.e. using less pain meds) I have withdrawal symptoms.  I typically take 1/2 a pill to curb the symptoms until the pain has me take a full dose.  My question is: should I just put up with the symptoms or is taking a small dose to curb it going to lead to an endless cycle of addiction.  I hate taking the meds when I don't need it for pain but since it looks like I'll be on them for life, I can't help but think why should I go through withdrawal several times a week, but feel "guilty" getting the withdrawal relief.

[To sick and scared from Neena]

Joe, skip the dosage or at least cut it in half!!!!!  I have been recovered from Vicoden for approx. 1 week.  Under a doctors care I was weened by my dear husband and we are heading towards cleanliness.  I am no longer taking any pain meds, other than over the counter and am in great pain, but am suffering because I feel that I need to feel the pain to remind me of how horrible the addiction can be.  My pains are real and documented by docs also.  But, as you said, some days were better than others, yet I found myself taking the codiene anyways, sometimes more than my usual dosage.  DON'T DO IT.  I, WE IN THIS FORUM, CAN HELP YOU, BEFORE YOU END UP LIKE US.  Some of us are clean for years, some are clean for only days, while some are looking for more pills as we speak.  All we can do is try to help those who wish to stop and help them through the horrible physical withdrawals that WILL occur if the meds are abused.  Your actions are exactly as how I got started.  But, you may not be the addictive personality type, I am, so I have to just bear the pain and move on and live life.  Good Luck, Neena

[to doc dan from joe]

Thanks for your reply,

I do cut the pills in half, but the roxicodone pills are so small that cutting them any smaller causes them to literally crush into  a small pile of dust

[The Dude]

Well, if it breaks up, just put a little in milk, not even 2 ounces will be just fine.  I hope and wish you well.  I know what you are going through.  I'm in the same boat sometimes.  It's called a "Catch 22" Just keep sticking around, we'll help you.  You are not alone, TRUST ME !!

[Lynn to Neena]

Hey Joe, listen to Neena and Chad, they helped me through my weekend from hell. I am addicted BY CHOICE not because of any pain. Good luck,

[to doc dan from joe]

I hope you are right, here we go I can feel it comming on up from my lower back into my shoulder like someone is kicking me.  I'm ashamed to admit that I am hoping my pain starts soon so I can have an excuse to take a pain pill.  My co worker thinks I acting weird today, I have soooo muchhh nervous energy I cant stop looking form something to do to keep my mind off of the WD.

Joe

[To sick and scared from Neena]

Take a hot shower or bath.  Let the water just run on you.  Sit in there as long as you can.  I have been trying to do it before bed.  It helps with the shakes.  I guess if you took more meds then you are not withdrawing, but remember: hot bath/showers all the time, xanax or ativan for the shakes and or anxiety and if you have to be sick...be sick.  Let it out.  You will feel like your dying but you will not die from codiene withdrawals.  That is what my Doctor told me last week.  Call in sick.  Stomack flu?  Phenergan suppositories for vomiting.  Make sure it's the Phenrgan without CODIENE, of course.  Good luck Joe.  We are hear for you.  LYNN; are you doing ok?  Neena

[to doc dan from joe]

It wasn't too bad last night untill I got to sleep, woke up at 12:30 and felt like I swallowed a 400 HP engine, just bursting with energy and a weird sense of pain and cramping all over. At 1:00 am took 2 xanax (I had read about this before on the forum) it didn't help I was up till 3:00am with that same feeling.  I had to get up for work at 6:00 so I broke down an took a single pill, was able to go right to sleep within 20 minutes.  I figure using 1 pill at night untill my body adjusts isn't so bad, I can cut it out completly within a few days (just got to get that sleep).  I can't figure out why my pain suddenly stopped yesterday, I hope that it doesn't come back and have gone through all of this for nothing. I never really needed more than 4-8 pills a day to control the pain, I don't want to  imagine what it must be like to detox from the high doses that I've read people taking on a daily basis, must be the closest thing to hell on earth.  Thanks to everone for your advice!!!!

[Lynn to Neena]

Hi guys. Joe, I could eat up to 30 percs a day, so when I had to detox from that I crashed and burned, Ugh, it was awful.
Neena, I'm O.K., if you want to call it that. Ran into some pills  Monday, that's why you haven't heard from me. I'm beyond help. I have access all the time and no willpower, so I am still active. But I'm real proud of you. Real proud. I know I can go through what you did if I really wanted to. Trouble is.. I don't want to.

[To sick and scared from Neena]

I wish that I could inspire you somehow, but I do know your problem first hand.  I still have access to my vics, but have not made the call.  I did tell them to not give or sell to me for a while...but I am sure they would if it came right down to it.  So far, i haven't picked up the phone.  I am actually friends with my hook up, and actually miss spending time with her, but for now my sobriety and cleanliness is more important and she respects that.  Lynn, please hang in there.  When you run out of percs next, let me know...maybe I can stop you from buying more and help ou through the shitty next couple of days.  Good Luck!  Neena

[Frankinscense]

There is a better way. This life absolutely SUCKS. Give it up for god's sake before it is too late. Been there done that. It will eventually get you in prison or dead. Hook ups evertually get busted. Your time will come.
The better way is opiate agonist therapies or treatment. Admit your addiction and get help. You are all to far gone with your addictions to go to a pain clinic. Pain clinics offer drugs to responsible narcotic users which are rare as a three dollar bill.
A long acting opiate such as methadone will cure you I promise,at least allow you to carry on your life without all these cravings and withdrawals. I had the same type of problem. Now there is order in my life and I finished my  education. Shady drug deals with pushers and drug seeking ALWAYS end in disaster. Methadone(or LAAM) clinics provide you with your drug for pain,withdrawals,and cravings. It gives you back control of your life. All clinics are not about heroin junkies. 60% of the clients at the clinic I go to are pill addicts. They provide counseling,medical attention, and provide authority with dosing. If we all could take our medicine like we are supposed to and not run out early we would not need these controls. The reason we are addicts is because of a chemical imbalance that would gets by taking short acting opiates.(eg.percodan,vicoden,lortab,morphine, oxycontin-it is still a short acting opiate only in a time released form) These drugs deplete endorphins that when depleted cause cravings and withdrawals. Your brain sees vicoden as an endorphin and does not manufacture stores of endorphins. Endorphin molecule is almost exactly the same as short acting opiate molecules. The brain sees percodan for instance and thinks it is the natural occuring endorphin and does not replenish endorphin stores that have been depleted. So when you run out of your percodan there is NO endorphins at the receptor and withdrawal and cravings begin. (sick and no energy or the first signs of being "endorphin challenged".) If you keep this pill popping and addiction active eventually you may never produce natural endorphins again - hence the term Endorphin Challenged.
The only way to get your addiction in control is through the use of a long acting opiate such as methadone or Laam. T
There is nothing to be frightened of in atteding a clinic. If you are serious about a better life for your self seek help through this very effective mode of treatment.
Again, Sincerely, Doc Dan (CDCI)
***@****

[To sick and scared from Neena]

Hi. I've been clean of Vicoden for 6 days now.  The shakes rarely occur and my appetite is returning.  The initial withdrawal was HORRIBLE.  I felt like dying and asked my hubby to take me to hospital.  Instead, we contacted a doctor friend and told us how to taper me off the nasty stuff.  I also have not touched booze (for me, beer) in more than two weeks.  My question to you.  When will I have my strength back?  When will my endorphins be produced naturally?.  I am still having problems sleeping at night.  My doc has me on Xanax every 4 hours or as needed.  I would like to stop taking all pills, but my lack of sleep is zapping what is left of my energy.  Any ideas on energy filled foods?  Mulitvitamins?  I hope the rest of the people can get as far as I have.  If they go through the withdrawals at home, some may not use again, as I have not.  The humiliation of my hubby finding me on the bathroom floor was enough for me to stop and fight this monster.  Neena

[Frankinscense]

Hang in there Neena you are doing good. As to be expected. As time passes you endorpnins WILL peplinish themselves. Only in rare cases will endorhin production be effected. Exercise (very important for endorphin production)good high protien diet with meats high in vitamin b 12. Try a good multivitamin with minerals. The more days drug free you can achieve the better off you are in the endorphin department. One day of relapse will interupt the delicate balance in your brain chemistry that is needed for neurohormone production. Research has said that if a person continues to have problems with energy and depression one may try a mild antidepressant that will help production of another vital neurotransmiter norepinephrine(aka noradrenaline).
Such as the antidepresants known as NARI's. In my opinion I would never take high dose of any antidepressant unless I was severely depressed. The first one that comes to mind is Remeron. Good for sleep and norepinephrine production. But I would use them
in conservative doses. It is my opinion that prozac, zoloft,etc.,etc or overused. And in doses that R way too high for mild depressions or mood disorders. There are some other norepinephrine specific A/depresants.  Research says using imipramine type drugs for energy related problems is somewhat effective. I had some success with Elavil 50 mgms. at bedtime. But the drawback here is 3-6 weeks it takes for these antidepressants to work. I think 4-6 weeks alone without medications will be enough time for a mild vicodin type addiction. This should be enough time for the body to start producing stores of endorphin and other valuable neurohormones/transmitters.  Sincerely,Doc...

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

Just in case you are sceptical about Dan's advice on vitamins, I have something to add. I was sent home with bottles of B complex, folic acid and thiamine. While in the hospital I was given IM doses of B and thiamine. I was also told to eat a high protein diet and get plenty of excersize. Excersize supposedly triggers good hormone production such as endorphines and a few others that I can't remember. A good blood work and consultation with a dietician can bring you a lot of relief. My blood tests indicated that I was completely run down and suffering from malnutrition. We tend to not take care of our body's needs when using drugs. When we do detox, we get to feel all the effects of this neglect both physically and mentally. Take care and be well!

[To sick and scared from Neena]

I am a practicing Vegetarian.  My protein levels are low probably anyway.  Since my bottoming out, I have begun to eat cottage cheese and drink milk.  I also snack on cheese slices.  I usually get my proteins from beans, but since my withdrawals, I have not been able to stomach any form of beans.  I am taking a multivitamin and trying take move around as much as possible.  Am I getting enough proteins to help rebuild myself?  I have gained the weight back though.  I am considering hard boiling some eggs for animal proteins.  Also, I have periods of total fatigue.  Is this normal?  I know that the insomnia is part of it, but I feel zapped at times.  When will I sleep through the night?  Right now, I go from about 10pm til 3am.  I am also concerned about getting addicted to the Xanax.  I try to skip a dose once a day.  What are the withdrawals like from Xanax?  I dread getting addicted to anything ever again.  Thanks for your concern, Neena

[susanlea]

are endorphines the same as dopamine levels? Is this want makes a person able to enjoy life, movies, sex , food?  I need a little education here, thanks

[Frankinscense]

Drug use and abuse effect stores all neurotransmiters such as dopamine,endorphins,serotonin,and norepinephrine. Abstinence will allow the brain to replinish these valuable neurohormones/transmitters. Sleeplessness and fatique are common until the brain replinishes these brain chemicals.Abstinence is the key. Be stong keep the faith your body will normalise itself.
Neena vegetarian diets are not my speciality. I would suggest talking to a dietician or a physician who can do some bloodwork to determine where you defienicies are. In the mean time split soup will help blood that is low in iron. Eggs are a good source of protein. IS their any fish that you could eat temporarily. Vegetarians are notorius for having low levels of vitamin B12.
Have you tried protien shakes? Having normal levels of B12 is most important for energy levels. Low B12 levels = anemia. Go to your doctor and request bloodwork. Anemia and other defiencies can cause major health problems. Good Luck and be Spiritual!
Sincerely,
Doc...

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

As far as fatigue goes, I go through that everyday. It's partly due to my Hep C and the pain I am in. Some of it may be due to depression. I think that I have insomnia for the same reasons. I do sleep but am up several times during the night with nausea and frequent urination. I was taking Xanax for about three months but quit about six weeks ago. I had no withdrawals that I'm aware of. I was only taking one .5mg tab before bedtime.
The dietician told me to try and eat 5 smaller meals per day rather than 3 bigger ones. She recommended a high fiber and protien diet well rounded with all the major food groups. My cholesterol level is very low at 93 so I can eat all the eggs I want. I've been eating a lot of fish and poultry which is better than beef and pork on your digestive tract. I'm also limiting my salt and sugar intake.

I've only been taking Lorcet for pain and my wife is strictly in charge of dosing me. I'm seeing two specialists later this month and hopefully will get something stronger than Lorcet. Right now I can work for maybe thirty minutes and then I have to sit down for 15. Chronic pain is exhausting!

[To sick and scared from Neena]

It's been three weeks, and still no cravings for Vicoden.  Yeah!
Appetite is back and making plans to begin my tennis career again.  I hope that I may be of inspiration to all of you.  Most of all, I hope that I can stay away from the pills.  So far so good.  I feel like a different person...I am feeling life again.  Neena

[To sick and scared from Neena]

I guess my turning point began when I firmly believe that I had taken way too many pills and drank a few beers too.   I think that I may have nearly OD and as some people say...I may have been scared straight.  The next following days, weeks, as you know were HORRIBLE AND HUMILIATING.  My family, my husband and a few vital friends have held me up and pushed me forward.  Another turning point was during the 3 or 4 days of total withdrawal, my husband came in and found me on the floor of our bathroom with my head in the toilet gagging.  The look in his eyes was more than I could take.  As we watch his brother die of cancer, I found myself needing to be the strong one.  Not to mention, my wonderful 21 mos.old daughter.  Lynn, my best friend was murdered in 1995.  They still have not found the man who did this.  He raped her after he handcuffed her and drowned her in her own bathtub.  This is when my life began to spiral down hill.  I guess I decided that God wants me to live and move on and get over her death.  I don't want to go through my life on pills or drunk.  I want to live.  I am trying to get out more, even just driving around with my baby.  As soon as the weather clears, I begin my tennis again.  Hopefully the drug abuse has done no permanent damage.  Also, I went to visit my hook up the other day, as she is a friend.  When she opened her purse 3 full scripts of 60 vicoden came pouring out.  I got chills and almost gagged right there.  She would not have given them to me anyway, but, what I am trying to convey to you here is...I think you have to hit ROCK BOTTOM before you can say NO.  I was near death, or at least it felt like it.  Surround yourself with those who love you, those who will not judge your actions.  I can't tell you how it feels to get up in the morning and not need a fix.  Although, I feel the actual pain that got me in this situation, I am allowing myself to go through this.  I am feeling life again, getting up earlier and yes, still taking Xanax, as needed.  Mostly at night is when I take it, or if I feel like the shakes or boredom is coming on.  I guess the long and short of it is...I WANT MY LIFE BACK.  NO MAN, NO PILL, NO BEER WILL RULE MY LIFE AGAIN.  I will pray for you wherever you are and that you may have the strength to say no.  Flush em' baby, go through the 4 days of Hell, then look in the mirror.  I bet you'll like who you see.  Everyday gets better.  No lie.  Good luck. Neena

[Lynn to Neena]

Wow, all I can say is thank you for sharing this with me.

[To sick and scared from Neena]

Hi. I'll be out of town until Sunday.  I'll check on you as soon as I get in, I promise.  Hang in there.  ps. Hope you don't live in Florida, ha ha.  Neena

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

I am sorry to hear that you are leaving this forum. The reason I visit here is to hear all the many opinions that are posted about addiction. Some of your posts helped me.
I have to admit that Doc Dan's advice is getting a bit tedious day after day. Methadone is not the only answer for conquering addiction. It's just "his opinion".

Anyway, good luck! You are right about one thing though... most of us end up abusing drugs because we like it. After a million studies have been done on addiction, that's what it all boils down to. We just like it!

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

OOPS! sorry Neena my last post was for Vocodin Girl. I screwed up on my names again. Guess I'm not awake yet!

[Lynn to Neena]

Good for you! How did you get through it? Are you still taking xanax for sleep and anexiety, because those are hard to kick, also. A couple of weekends ago felt like we wanted to die, but painfully, slowly, we got through it. Well, you did anyway, I relapsed. No willpower. What does it feel like to actually get through a day straight, without worrying about where your next pill is going to come from? I'm tired if I don't have any percs, and I'm tired if I eat them because they don't give me the energy   they used to. Now its a psychological thing, seeing that vial of pills in my pocketbook. What is keeping you from calling your connection? I want to be where you are!!!