Still waiting...

My D.O.C.(i abused pills for 19 yrs, i have been addicted for 7yrs out of the 19yrs) was oxycodone (any form), i had my last oxycodone on sept. 26, 2006 and started methadone 20 mg. daily,( i had to get the methadone illegally) someone told me about suboxone, i took my last dose of methadone on may 20, and my first dose of suboxone on may 24... i started on 28-32mg of suboxone (never been so sick in my life from 24th - 27th), i am now down to 16 mg of suboxone, my doctor wants me to stay on suboxone for at least 2 years!?  what should i do? i really dont feel all that great! most people say suboxone is VERY STRONG, they say thay have the same side effects (constipation,sleepy, pinpoint pupils, etc...) as if they were taking D.O.C.,  i do not, and from what i read i am on a high dose?i do not understand what is going on with me? all i can say is that i am not TOO physically ill, i still dont feel NORMAL like everyone else has said..mentally i am a mess, i am in therapy, and so far i have been diagnosed with 4 different illnesses, and on 80mg. of prozac and take xanax only when i have to cuz i hate it...i still dont sleep or eat, i have no motivation, no ambition,i am having a real hard time "caring" about things like i should, i cry all the time (which is not like me, i have ALWAYS been strong),i go for weeks without leaving my house (except therapy) i have panic attacks and the worst of all is the ANXIETY, the anxiety is killing me slowly, i dont know how much longer i can hang on to suboxone...WHEN WILL I START TO FEEL BETTER? when will i start to feel like all this damn suffering will payoff? i dont care about getting high anymore i just want to be "NORMAL", what ever that is ...does anyone know the answers?  love and peace to all

[FLaddict]

Your doc is INSANE... I posted an earlier post called Sub FAQ.. read it.. its long but it talks about what you are going through...

First you need to get you dose lower despite what your doc says.. find another one... tell him he can't use you as a guinea pig... lower doses people feel alot better... many have reactions like this to large doses... and some people found they were allergic to it...
I am off to bed.. gotta work early.. but I will be back tommorrow night if you need to talk.. I took Sub for a 10 day detox.. I did TONS of reserch on it..
Welcome.. I am so sorry you feel this way.. Read the Sub FAQ i posted it talks about high doses and long term use... you will find it helpful I promise..

XOXO
Stephanie
Day 43

[marcatj]

hi buddy... i unfortunately don't know anything about sub, but i did want to welcome you here to the forum - you will find alot of wonderful people and some incredibly useful information and support.

JUST HOLD ON my friend... Fladdict has lot's of info on this, and i betcha as soon as you get your dosage and hopefully a better doc for this straightened out, you're gonna come out the other side very soon..

good luck buddy.. and keep hangin' on!

:)
mj

[wait2long]

this is the ONLY doctor in a 120 mile radius from where i live, i live in VERY NORTHERN N.H., i dont have another choice in docs... and i did tons and tons of research on suboxone, my doctor did tell me i am her first patient to switch from strictly methadone  to suboxone, all of her other patients switched from short acting opiod. and yes i had already read your sub fact post (alot of good info). and yes i have been lowering my dose gradually, i just went from 20mg down to 16mg, so i am working on that part... also one of the things i read frequently about suboxone is "the longer it is taken, the better chance for success" and that people who have only taken it for shorter periods have less of a chance for success??  i guess i am REALLY confused as to what i am supposed to do, what i want to do, what i think i should feel like, what i want to feel like compared to the reality of what i DO feel like  and really dont have a clue as what i should be expecting at this point in recovery or if i have set myself up for failure..AGAIN!!! and obviously sick of the pain too.. boy i am quite winey arent tonight... sorry...thanks for the info and support...love and peace to all

[wait2long]

maybe i am just expecting too much? with the money i am paying for suboxone and therapy (no insurance) i could be feeling REAL GOOD all the time, so tell me why am i doing this to myself?  i desperately just want to be well....thats all...i just want to be well. love and peace to all

[marcatj]

no... you are not whiney at all.  that is alot to think about tonight (for you,) so I would suggest you let it alone for today and try to solve the worlds problems tomorrow... :-)

you will get a lot of more info here too, maybe some other suggestions that will work other than sub, and then you can mull that over too... add it to the mix (lol.)  seriously tho...

regardless, there IS an answer.  there always is... you will find it.

i'm off to bed, but please keep posting here.. i believe you will find it invaluable.

good luck, God Bless, and I for one, believe you will come out the other side...

be well...
mj

[fishmeal]

2 yrs is a lot even with my phlosophy!  I believe in long extended but not 2 years....I'm about 10 time what Fladdict believes but I also believe in her.... I know it's weird and a long sttory but it worked for her!!!!

[fishmeal]

pay attention to others as make informed dececesion

[wait2long]

I too have a handicapped child (although he is now a 22 year old young man), he was "diagnosed" with an "unknown syndrome"...we did the genetic testing (although his biological father wouldnt participate) and i did EVERYTHING to find out what happened to him,and that is all i got for an answer, love him to death just the same, and beleive he is a wonderful young man, so proud of all the milestones and how he handled his difficulties. but i do also understand the hardship and all the unanswered questions, just keep doing all you can do, and you too will be proud. love and peace to you...(they did question autism at one point, but unable to confirm it so they counted it out for a diagnoses)

[wait2long]

I talked to my suboxone doctor today, she is advising me to get a referral from my therapist to see the phsychiatrist to get my psyciatric meds. changed to help with severe depression, anxiety, and panic... BUT of course that option is limited also so i may have to wait up to 3 months!! I just have to keep telling myself that i made a promise to my family to stick it out for 6 mos. or so, i can not disappoint them AGAIN or myself for that matter, i just wish i would start to get some releif or the feeling i was actually accomplishing something, just want to be well, not looking for perfection. so i am STILL WAITING... love and peace...

[FLaddict]

Sorry I didn't see your post to me last night..and I just logged on about an hour ago..
IF that is the only doc then that is that... Many people who swiched from methodone have had more probelms being comfortable on it than those that switched from shorter acting meds.
The only time I have ever read that longer is better is from the drug co that makes it or a doctor that buys what they say... If you talk to any of the people who have actually taken Sub for 2 years.. they would not agree with that statement they would urge you to get off or have never taken at all.

[wait2long]

I think your right about the statement that longer is better...i did read that from the drug co. site.....

[FLaddict]

"longer is better" in their eyes is better.. more revenue... people getting hooked on the stuff.. convincing people they need "maintenece" to get their lives together.. this drug was intended for the symptoms of opiate withdrawl (withdrawal).. not day to day addiction..that is what counseling and other stuff is for.. to get your life together.. More drugs will not help you "start over" it kinda prevents you from moving forward.. You can't fight fire with fire..

[wait2long]

any suggestions on which way i should approach this mess i am in would be great...i have now been on suboxone for 9 weeks....should i keep doing a slow taper?  does xanax make it worse?  is 16mg REALLY considered a high dose? anyone hear of any side effects with suboxone,prozac and/or xanax? what is a good dose to get on for "maintainence?" i guess i might need a type of "schedule?" only thing i am worried about is being sick, i am a stay  at home mom to 3 boys, so until school starts again, I HAVE TO BE ABLE TO FUNCTION....but i am willing to do anything i can just to "FEEL BETTER" and to get this process moving towards an end.  thanks so much. love and peace.

[FLaddict]

I would start a taper down to 2-4mgs.. that would be a reasonable maintenence dose if that is what you want to do. Yes 16mgs is a high dose to be on for the time you have.
Start cutting out 2mgs every 4 days or so.. work towards the lowest dose possible that you can maintain on.
I will look for a good taper schedule for the dose you are at.. there are some website that have suggested tapers..
I don't know of any Side effects between Prozac.. I know you want to use caution with the xanax. Since it is a CNS depressant..

[wait2long]

Thank you for the help, i am just really stuck right now on what to do.  i have a real hard time with the xanax, i cannot take it during the day, although it does help with anxiety and panic tremendously, i cant stand the feeling it gives me. so i do only take half a dose in the evening but ONLY WHEN I CANT BEAR IT ANYMORE (maybe on average 2-3 times a week).  is there an antidepressant that works better with suboxone? or works better for addiction purposes? i really dont think the prozac is doing anything for me (sometimes i swear i am worse) and i was told 80mg. is a high dose for that too...thanks again

[FLaddict]

I have heard good things about Cymbalta... that is a anti depressant that I have read has helped addicts.. It apparently can also help some with pain. Talk to your doctor.. everyones chemisty is different but I have heard good things about that one.
I would suggest getting some L-theanine... it is a natural amino acid that helps with anxiety.. you could take that during the day in the times you don't want to have the side effects the xanax gives you. I take it since I no longer take xanax.. and it has helped me..

Keep me posted darling

[wait2long]

i will ask my doc. about cymbalta,  thank you,  and where would i get L-theanine?  did you have any difficulty with suboxone? what was your experience like? (i hope you dont mind me asking) thanks so much, like i said i live in the middle of nowhere and know plenty of addicts (all who take methadone), so i am kind of alone on this suboxone thing up here, i do not know of anyone else taking it around here but me....and if cymbalta works for pain too thats nothing but a plus for me as i hurt all the time, but decided nothing is worse than living the life of an addict in denial...thanks soooo much!

[FLaddict]

You can get L-theanine at GNC or some vitamin shop.. sometimes it can be found at a pharmacy as well..sometimes it called Suntheanine...
I really had no issues with Sub.. I didn't like the way it made me feel so I think that helped reinforce me wanting to get off of it in a quick manner. I felt racey thoughts. and sweaty alot of the time.. But It got me off of pills and for that I am grateful.

[wait2long]

you are so lucky it worked for you, i am jealous, i think i was really expecting it to go that way for me, good for you! do you still find it hard to deal with (addiction)? and the sweating i understand, thats all i do is sweat!!!! it is horrible!!  but other than that i feel like i am always on the verge of some major withdrawals, but it never really happens!?  i also get goosebumps (while i am sweating) on just 1 arm or 1 leg, which i find quite strange??   thank you soo sooo much for your input and- patience...

[grievingwidow]

I have also heard that the sub does not work as well for people on methadone, now I am scared, I was seriously considering going on the sub, but now don't know.  I use methadone and oxycodone, but the methadone is what I take every single day no matter what.  Well, hope it works out for you dear, please keep posting.  I am hoping you start feeling better soon, or I am pretty sure I may decide to go another route for myself.

Love, Cindy

[wait2long]

is there anyway you could drop the methadone and take strictly oxycodone for about 3-4 weeks? if that is possible then the sub WILL WORK FOR YOU, please dont be discouraged by my experience, as everyone is different, i havent heard of 2 stories that are the same...

[FLaddict]

There are ways to do it..FIrst you must taper down to at least 20mgs at methodone per day for at least 2 weeks.. then wait 3-4 days to start Sub...
Or you can taper down as low as you can.. then switch to something shorter acting like Oxys..for 2 weeks and then wait 12-24 hours to make the jump to Sub..
Methodone is a tricky one.. but with all I have read these two ways seem to be the ways to go..The problem with high doses of Methdone is that the Sub is not enough to fil the receptors... so you end up having withdrawl (withdrawal).. not good.. and with the long half life there is a risk of starting it too soon and going into precipitate withdrawl (withdrawal).. But the two ways above should prevent either.

[wait2long]

tomorrow i am dropping from 16mg to 12mg of suboxone...when and how will i know if its too much of a drop in mg's?  will i be sick and what do i expect?  i never even noticed the drop from the 32 mg to 16 mg (i didnt do it all at once,,4mg at a time...)  let me know what to expect, if anything....thanks hun...

[FLaddict]

I would drop to 14mgs for 2-4 days then drop to 12mgs.. From what I have read more people have issues when they get to under 8mgs.. that is when the have a harder time with the tapering off when they started at higher doses..
If you haven't yet.. get some clonidine from your doctor.. it will help with anything you may feel while tapering.. which will probably be hot flashes or chills.. that is what I felt and that med was a life saver..

[pheggie101]

Im going to chime in on the Suboxone. i am not a user never was but my ex wife was, heavy use for years. 3 rehabs, oxy,hydro,meth,you name it. It was back when sub was first starting, She came to me for help and i took her to a doc that was approved. in sept 2003. she will be on sub for 4 years, 32 or more mg's a day. Now from me looking from the outside i will share what i saw. we reconciled for 3.5 years until last jan. She was never happy,very moody. happy one min not the next. always picking on me and things, lots of blame. Now that i read these post i see she was very depressed and anxious. she never returned to her self. I really do believe the sub effects the mental aspects, she was always looking for somthing better, very very impulsive, left me in jan, came to me in march for sex, talked about missing me, in april she got engaged,in june she wasnt sure,enrolled in therapy,decided she wanted to be married, and wed last weekend. Now this as you can see is not normal rational behaviour. i truly believe the suboxone is  at fault for this, how can the brain heal, or operate noramlly under this onslaught?........we dont hear much about the mental affects of sub, just the physical stuff, but i truly believe it cause alot of mental anguish,, JIM

[wait2long]

i am sorry for your difficulties. but i also amazed at some of the things you have said, i am not sure if it is the addiction itself, from prior drug abuse or from the sub., but i will be the first to tell you i am a mental mess, i had minor problems before the addiction... but now (either from the sub., or from addiction) i suffer SEVERE (worst part for me)) anxiety, agoraphobia with panic disorder, avoidance behavoir, i isolate myself, i want to do nothing i used to do, just not interested...i have the constant BLAHS and worst of all i have absolutely no confidence and no self esteem at all whatsoever, none...i feel like a burden to everyone, and have never felt so useless and unloved in my life..... so i was almost convinced it was caused from being an addict, but maybe the suboxone??   if anyone taking suboxone has had any of these same feelings PLEASE POST!!!   so so sorry pheggie101, and thank you!!!

[FLaddict]

There were definately times I felt very strange on Sub..  I was quite moody and felt a constant racing thoughts.. It got better as I got lower and lower in my dose.. By the time I was at 2mgs alot of that was better.. I think it comes from larger doses of the stuff..  I think the side effects are increases despite there not being any other effects increased..

[wait2long]

although i was on a very low dose (so i am told) of methadone only 20 mgs daily for 9 months, but i used the methadone to stop a 25-30  5mg pill a day of oxy-anything or hydro-anything or just plain old anything for 7 years, would that have anything to do with this also, or strictly the methadone competeing with the suboxone??   i just have sooo many unanswered questions, sorry and thank you for your continued patience with me

[wdagain]

You can get down to 8mg of Sub and feel indifferently as if you are on 16mg or 24mg.  the problem is going from 8mg to 4mg and from 4mg to 2mg and then to 1mg and then to .5 and then quitting it.  Good luck to you

[rookier]

i took 2mg off sub on sunday night--had very severe withrawals SEVERE, itrs now tuesday im still takin 4mg sub every 4-6 hrs. i feel aliitle better but still cant get out of bed.   when will it end--itook my last meth dose of 60mg on saturday.

[wait2long]

i waited almost 5 full days from my last 20 mg dose of methadone before i took my first 8 mg of suboxone...and i was still severly sick with precipitated withdrawals for 4 days....first of all your methadone dose was too high, you are supposed to be on 20 mg of methadone before even starting suboxone, that my friend is why you are soo sick...i am surprised your doctor even gave you any sub knowing your methadone dose was at 60 mg?   but also i think your suboxone dose is too low to start on....i was taking 20 mg. of methadone every day, nothing else...i was taking 32 mgs of sub for the first 3-4 weeks, now i am down to 10 mg....methadone withdrawals last for a very very long time, about a month for me...i could still feel some sort of withdrawals even on my 32 mgs of sub....last week is the first week i can honestly say i am feeling better/normal.....and i have been on sub for 11 weeks now...stick with it, it does work, but you have to tell your doc how bad your feeling so dose can be adjusted..and if i was you i would stay on as low of a dose as you can for the shortest amount of time...i am just now learning this out for myself...fladdict posts here everyday and know alot more about this, she has been helping me...

[rookier]

ya but sub is supposed to help with withdrawal so in a few days it should take over and make me functional. I took it too soon but its not as bad as the firt day.

[wait2long]

yes your right, but if your sub dose is too low it wont help you...methadone patients seem to need higher doses of sub for first few weeks...like i said i was on 32 mgs of sub (split dose) 16 mg at nigh    16 mgs in the morn...  4 mgsof sub. seems really low to me for a 60mgs a day methadone habit....

[rookier]

how long do you think the severe withdrawal will stop. i was on 60 meth i waited approx 36 hours then took 2 mg of sub.---heavy withdrawal sunday night all night long -monday i was in bed all day but felt better-tuesday feeling better but still horrible  flashes of severe withdrawal mixed with times of feeling kinda ok

[rookier]

im taking 4mg every 4 hours. in the morning i planned to ake 16mg at once.

[rookier]

im been on meth this time for 1.5 months

[rookier]

what you think---thanks 4 ur help--im so f.... emotional

[rookier]

it souldnt take longer than 4 days or so since thats how long you would usually wait

[wait2long]

i am sorry but i really think you need to up your dose of sub...when was your last dose of meth?  i think you should try the 16 mg. at once in the  morn...   4mg of sub isnt enough to hold you compared to your past habit....try it, i think you will get some releif.   make sure you let them COMPLETELY dissolve under your tongue....let me know  in the morning how it goes.....i am not sure but you could still be sick after 16 mgs of sub because its only been since saturday when you took last dose of meth....we will help you through this...i was in your exact spot just a couple of weeks ago....feeling so much better now....the end of the nasty wd's are near...

[rookier]

thanks it feels like your a lifeline really  thanks

[rookier]

write u in the morn after 16mg

[FLaddict]

i am just seeing your post to me now its 1030 pm est time.. sorry I was unable to get back to you until now.. Wait is right.. you didn't wait long enough to start the Sub they general rule is 72 hours after last meth dose.. You should be feeling better by now. I would not go right to 16mgs all at once.. try 8mg when you wake up.. split dosing seems to help people more when they make the switch from meth.. They generally don't switch people unless they are down to 20mgs of methodone per day. Any higher and the Sub will not be enough to keep you not sick.. I suggest you hang on.. you are still gonna feel kinda bad until the methodone is out of your system.. Even the highest dose of Sub is not enough to stop the withdrawls of 60mgs of meth a day..
Are you doing this with a doctor or a clinic?? They should not have left you make the switch without tapering you down to 20mgs per day.. If you need to talk make a new post to me..

[wait2long]

i will be here..keep your chin up, you WILL get through this...

[rookier]

3:30 in the morning got 5 hours sleep   great---feeling much better right now but cant go back to sleep.Ill explain how i got them later.  You all helped me alot by being here write you in a few hours.----just took 16mg---before i read your responce

[rookier]

835 am feeling restless but i dont feel like ripping my legs or shoulders off. this has been so hard man.Istill have a very low toleranfor stress and a bit nausaus.dont know what to do with myself, im also really depreesed. hopefully tommorow it will be better. I know better than to do what i did.

[rookier]

i stooped meth for 5 days the first time i got sub, then i ate up all my sub supply so i went to meth clinic. I kept gettmy monthly script but just stashed it and kept using meth-----stupids arnt i

[wait2long]

how are you feeling right now?  when did you take the 16 mgs of sub?  do you think it helped?    keep me posted..

[FLaddict]

Hope you are hanging in there.... Keep us posted on how you are doing..

XOXO

[rookier]

thanks.. i still cant eat but im feeling better. i took 16 at 3 am and 16 at 8 am. still nasuas and very tense and depressed but managable---wow the worst is over -what a real nightmare. i feel like ive been beaten up with a bat. words cant explain the dispair. thanks again. ill write later

[wait2long]

jist dont over do it, my sub doctor says no more than 32 mgs in a 24 hour period....ok?   check in with you later...

[rookier]

well its 3 pm im feeling really run down and restless. im still depressed dont have motivation to go back to work but sitting home is gettin to me. i have the week off. its so hot here in athens georgia--103 cant go outside or ill die still cant eat. Im really run down       its gettin better but still dawn hard

[wait2long]

how long have you been taking sub again? and how much were you originally prescribed to take?what have you taken so far today?  if your last dose of 16mg was at 3 am this morning,,,you can take another 16 mg 12 hours later...or now (10:00)